387 replies to this topic

[Tegiminis]

Yeah, let's have your weapons hit like 6 different locations at once. That'll do well to increase the skill cap of MWO in a way which isn't completely moronic.

[soarra]

Tegiminis, on 07 July 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Yeah, let's have your weapons hit like 6 different locations at once. That'll do well to increase the skill cap of MWO in a way which isn't completely moronic.

good constructive criticism here.

[Tegiminis]

Constructive criticism implies there is anything in what is being criticized worth considering.

Let that sink in for a moment.

[soarra]

Tegiminis, on 07 July 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

Constructive criticism implies there is anything in what is being criticized worth considering.

Let that sink in for a moment.

i just think his idea is too complicated for you and would take away your leet boating skills

what is your great idea to fix the problem?

Edited by soarra, 07 July 2013 - 01:58 PM.

[StandingInFire]

It seems like everyone one that is against this thinks its random, which is not what it does, you can still at all times hit any point on an enemy you want, just not necessarily at the same time with all your weapons.

You MIGHT have to move your cursor to align side torso guns if you don't want to wait for convergence so the fire cases become:
See Enemy =

• Fire with all arm weapons.
  Move cursor over to the right to align right torso weapons and fire without convergence.
  Move cursor to the left to align left torso weapons and fire without convergence.
  Effective result = Chain-fire for accuracy
  
• Fire all weapons instantly and have side torso fire a bit off to the right and left therefore spreading damage.
  Effective Result = Spread Damage for alphas
  
• Wait for convergence and have full weapon pinpoint accuracy, but delays and might make you vulnerable to counterattack.
  Effective Result = Snipers have to wait for convergence and cant "whack a mole"

Edited by StandingInFire, 07 July 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[DocBach]

Tegiminis, on 07 July 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Yeah, let's have your weapons hit like 6 different locations at once. That'll do well to increase the skill cap of MWO in a way which isn't completely moronic.

It's a mechanism to discourage massive boating and group fire; single chain fired weapons would still have pinpoint precision, but group fired weapons would require some work to have them all hit a singular location. The whole idea is the targeting computer takes time to converge all six locations together, and the time it takes is affected by combat conditions like movement of the target and heat level. The reticle gives the player a direct indication on tight the weapons have converged and gives the player a clear reference point to where his weapons will hit if he fires.

Edited by DocBach, 07 July 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Inconspicuous]

This sounds like a better idea than most, I vote yes.

[Seddrik]

Well written and thought out for sure.

I'm not conclusive on whether to agree or not. I often pilot lights and am fairly good at it. If, for example, I use the 6 small pulse settup on a Jenner F, this system would NEVER allow me to hit one spot with my small 20 alpha as I flew by. Without this, my entire settup is null and void.

Thoughts? Or is there something I am missing?

[soarra]

Seddrik, on 07 July 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

Well written and thought out for sure.

I'm not conclusive on whether to agree or not. I often pilot lights and am fairly good at it. If, for example, I use the 6 small pulse settup on a Jenner F, this system would NEVER allow me to hit one spot with my small 20 alpha as I flew by. Without this, my entire settup is null and void.

Thoughts? Or is there something I am missing?

alpha strikes should be a last resort , not every shot
i also run a jenner F, with SmpL and fire them 3 and 3 with better results..

[Unbound Inferno]

StandingInFire, on 07 July 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

It seems like everyone one that is against this thinks its random, which is not what it does, you can still at all times hit any point on an enemy you want, just not necessarily at the same time with all your weapons.

You MIGHT have to move your cursor to align side torso guns if you don't want to wait for convergence so the fire cases become:
See Enemy =

• Fire with all arm weapons.
  
  Move cursor over to the right to align right torso weapons and fire without convergence.
  Move cursor to the left to align left torso weapons and fire without convergence.
  Effective result = Chain-fire for accuracy
  
• Fire all weapons instantly and have side torso fire a bit off to the right and left therefore spreading damage.
  
  Effective Result = Spread Damage for alphas
  
• Wait for convergence and have full weapon pinpoint accuracy, but delays and might make you vulnerable to counterattack.
  
  Effective Result = Snipers have to wait for convergence and cant "whack a mole"

Perhaps you misunderstand if you were reading my post?

I'd prefer random but DocBach's idea isn't - it is quite precise still.

[BIix]

I don't think I would like having to look through the larger reticles to see the actual game.

The Core problem with convergence is that the attack gets focused (Alpha strikes), while the defense remains spread out and distributed as a 'area' of armor.

While the solution most seem to be imagining is some method of reducing the focused nature of the converged attack, a more proper solution may be to reduce the distribution of the defense.

For example, you fire 3 PPC's at a Mech. They converge and hit on the Right Torso and have an impact radius of 0.3 meters. (Made up numbers not intrinsic to the argument.) Right now, the entire Right Torso would receive 30 damage, however what would be more appropriate for the mechanics of the game is for only that hit location to receive 30 points of damage. (Armor may need to be addressed with a different regard, away from total damage and points of potential damage recieved, but this is a detail to resolve later.) The comparative result is that when a 2nd alpha strike is fired and hits a slightly different location, but still classified as the Right Torso, in scenario one (current game) the entire armor section is expended. In scenario two, you now have two 0.3meter areas on that mech that have received 30 damage independent of each other. This means your shots would actually have to overlap in order to penetrate. That also means that the skill required to get quick instagib kills goes up dramatically. And suddenly area fire missiles like SRM's have an enhanced role as the blanket damage coverage could exploit there weaknesses.

The game would obviously have to be rebalanced in terms of match duration, armor amounts, cap times, etc. But the matches on a whole would be more balanced without any notion of randomization. This would also give rise to any type of armor penetration weapons.

The Gauss bolt is much smaller in radius than a PPC bolt, so matching a pin-point shot would become increasingly difficult. This where armor penetration on the Gauss bolt would come into play. For example, if the armor area had a value less than 30 when the Gauss rifle struck then the weapon would penetrate through for a chance to crit internals.

Unfortunately, current game technology would not make implementing this easy. However, it would be a master stroke in my opinion and would solve a lot of the problems with convergence because it would balance convergence both in the attack and in the defense. Instead of only on one side.

[BIix]

soarra, on 07 July 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

alpha strikes should be a last resort , not every shot
i also run a jenner F, with SmpL and fire them 3 and 3 with better results..

Alpha strikes are typically how you initially engage. It's called an alpha strike because it is your first strike. You can afford to fire everything you've got initially because you are firing from a cold fresh mech. Typically, recycle times carry the fight onwards so that alpha strikes can not continually be used. Heat then also becomes a limiting reagent.

Regardless, alpha strikes are rarely considered as a last ditch hail Mary.

[DocBach]

BIix, on 07 July 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Alpha strikes are typically how you initially engage. It's called an alpha strike because it is your first strike. You can afford to fire everything you've got initially because you are firing from a cold fresh mech. Typically, recycle times carry the fight onwards so that alpha strikes can not continually be used. Heat then also becomes a limiting reagent.

Regardless, alpha strikes are rarely considered as a last ditch hail Mary.

this is actually the opposite for how it worked in the lore; you don't want to start off the engagement stacked with the penalties you receive from running hot; the alpha strike was a last ditch hail mary play to hopefully end the bad guy in a last salvo when you needed to go all out to survive. And you risked a lot doing it, shut down, ammunition explosions, ect.

Seddrik, on 07 July 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

Well written and thought out for sure.

I'm not conclusive on whether to agree or not. I often pilot lights and am fairly good at it. If, for example, I use the 6 small pulse settup on a Jenner F, this system would NEVER allow me to hit one spot with my small 20 alpha as I flew by. Without this, my entire settup is null and void.

Thoughts? Or is there something I am missing?

your mech would still have several advantages in this system;

first, because the weapons are located in only two locations, you could fire one arm at a time for consistent precisions

second, because your 'Mech is fast, enemy grouped weapons would have a difficult time converging against it. and your convergence speed would be much faster against slower moving 'Mechs.

third, because your weapons are pulse weapons, they would converge quicker and tighter than standard weapons.

Edited by DocBach, 07 July 2013 - 03:07 PM.

[soarra]

DocBach, on 07 July 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

this is actually the opposite for how it worked in the lore; you don't want to start off the engagement stacked with the penalties you receive from running hot; the alpha strike was a last ditch hail mary play to hopefully end the bad guy in a last salvo when you needed to go all out to survive. And you risked a lot doing it, shut down, ammunition explosions, ect.



your mech would still have several advantages in this system;

first, because the weapons are located in only two locations, you could fire one arm at a time for consistent precisions

second, because your 'Mech is fast, enemy grouped weapons would have a difficult time converging against it. and your convergence speed would be much faster against slower moving 'Mechs.

third, because your weapons are pulse weapons, they would converge quicker and tighter than standard weapons.

i would be happy if they made alpha strikes limited to 1 or 2 times a match

[HCubCadet1972]

Well said. I agree wholeheartedly.

[Tegiminis]

soarra, on 07 July 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

i just think his idea is too complicated for you and would take away your leet boating skills

what is your great idea to fix the problem?

It is indeed too complicated for me. It's too complicated for anyone with half a brain. It's a way to lower the skill cap, rather than raising it. We should make weapons more difficult to use because they have difficult innate properties, not because they spread all over the place.

I don't boat, though. I run joke or suboptimal builds because I stubbornly refuse to boat. My favorite build is a laserdril (2 LPL, 2 ML) C1. Imagine that!

My idea? I don't have one myself, although the forced chainfiring on larger ballistics/energy weapons seems like a step in the right direction to me. It's simple, removes the problem of pinpoint alphas, and better captures the essence of the OP's overcomplicated proposal (you should have to keep your weapons on an enemy for a longer period of time before they die) without being so needlessly convoluted.

Do you want to kill this game? Implementing this proposal would do so. It's incredibly unfriendly to new players, is a complicated solution to a problem that can be solved in simpler ways, and (and this is the best part) STILL FAVORS SNIPERS AND THE HIGH-DAMAGE ALPHA.

Crawl back into the brown sea from whence you came.

[DocBach]

Tegiminis, on 07 July 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

It is indeed too complicated for me. It's too complicated for anyone with half a brain. It's a way to lower the skill cap, rather than raising it. We should make weapons more difficult to use because they have difficult innate properties, not because they spread all over the place.

I don't boat, though. I run joke or suboptimal builds because I stubbornly refuse to boat. My favorite build is a laserdril (2 LPL, 2 ML) C1. Imagine that!

My idea? I don't have one myself, although the forced chainfiring on larger ballistics/energy weapons seems like a step in the right direction to me. It's simple, removes the problem of pinpoint alphas, and better captures the essence of the OP's overcomplicated proposal (you should have to keep your weapons on an enemy for a longer period of time before they die) without being so needlessly convoluted.

Do you want to kill this game? Implementing this proposal would do so. It's incredibly unfriendly to new players, is a complicated solution to a problem that can be solved in simpler ways, and (and this is the best part) STILL FAVORS SNIPERS AND THE HIGH-DAMAGE ALPHA.

Crawl back into the brown sea from whence you came.

You understand that this would still leave chain-fired single fired weapons with pinpoint accuracy, so if players decided if they wanted to shoot large groups they would have to work and get a convergence lock to put it all in the same panel? It makes shooting groups turn from doing tons of damage to one location to tons of damage spread out. It pretty much does become the solution you want, where chain fire has a use - but players aren't forced in to it like you would prefer, they still have the choice to alpha strike, but if they choose to do so they either will spread their massive damage out, or have to slow down and get a good bead making them more exposed to return fire to focus damage to one location.

[Inconspicuous]

Tegiminis, on 07 July 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

Do you want to kill this game? Implementing this proposal would do so. It's incredibly unfriendly to new players, is a complicated solution to a problem that can be solved in simpler ways, and (and this is the best part) STILL FAVORS SNIPERS AND THE HIGH-DAMAGE ALPHA.

No, it does not. It favors grouped fire.

[Tegiminis]

It does nothing to address the "problem," which is firing all the big guns at once is still the optimal solution.

I'll leave you to your cult of idiocy, though. Return to the ignorant circlejerking below.

[DocBach]

OK, explain your position to how it doesn't spread alpha strike damage? It doesn't favor being stopped, or sniping because being stopped allows enemies to have much quicker convergence against you and range profiles play into the maximum convergence. If anything, it favors players wanting to accurately engage to using chain fired weapons instead of alpha strikes in the first place. Alpha striking or large group fired weapons would have to be fired at a penalty unless the player kept their target in their sights long enough to gain convergence with all of their weaponry. As for making the game more complicated, just about every shooter on the market has a floating reticle to represent penalties to accuracy, so anybody who has played other shooters would know that the reticle expanding would mean less accuracy and it getting smaller means more accuracy; the difference is this reticle would actually still serve as an aiming reference for weapons in certain locations, making nothing randomized about where shots go.

You come in here flinging insults to everyone, yet have no discernible position other then curious hatred. I'm thinking your either just a troll or someone who didn't even read the entire suggestion all the way and jumping into conclusions, because this idea actually rewards chain fire like you suggest while making group fire an option you would have to work for to gain maximum effect.

Edited by DocBach, 07 July 2013 - 05:53 PM.