109 replies to this topic

[One Medic Army]

Chavette, on 27 June 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Well thats new... I was thinking the hardpoints are custom for the phoenix models.

Yup, there's a couple other tidbits in the FAQ.

Quote

People still listen to pink floyd, why you surpised.

...I like Pink Floyd...

[Bagheera]

MaddMaxx, on 27 June 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Would not a Mech, in the same weight class, that weighs 10 more tons, not have a better Stock engine and thus speed?

Not necessarily. Atlas and Battlemaster are the same weight class. Atlas weighs 15 tons more, Battlemaster is faster. Speed is the relationship between engine rating and weight class. Some mechs will come stock with bigger engines and some with smaller in the same weight bracket. Like the difference between a Cent -D and a Cent -A, for example.

[Howdy Doody]

Bagheera, on 26 June 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

Well, this didn't take long.

<golf clap>
BRAVO!
</golf clap>

Heck I thought it was in major trouble since it has a massive Death Star thermal exhaust port for a head!

Talking about a walking bulls-eye!

[Angel of Annihilation]

ryoma, on 26 June 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

The Shadow Hawk seems like it it will disrupt medium power balance and be pay to win in that field. It has 5 tons on cents, hunchies, and trebs, jump jets, and it seems like it will have good hardpoints.

5 tons often means a lot in combat, so putting this mech behind a pay wall for a month is actually pay to win.

Your kidding about the "good hardpoints" part right. 1 Energy, 3 Ballastic, 3 Missile on a 55 ton mech. There isn't enough weight available to take advantage of all those ballastic and missile hard points. 25 tons total useable weight if you go XL and Endo, 16 tons with standard structure and standard engine. Your not going to be fitting Gauss and AC/20s on this mech, not and have much else to shoot with anyway.

Also, the Shadow Hawk will be availble to all players and even the Phoenix varaint is just a standard F2P model with a C-bill boost, kind of like Founders mechs. Can't call it Pay-to-Win when you get zero advantage using it to win a battle

[MustrumRidcully]

Viktor Drake, on 27 June 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Your kidding about the "good hardpoints" part right. 1 Energy, 3 Ballastic, 3 Missile on a 55 ton mech. There isn't enough weight available to take advantage of all those ballastic and missile hard points. 25 tons total useable weight if you go XL and Endo, 16 tons with standard structure and standard engine. Your not going to be fitting Gauss and AC/20s on this mech, not and have much else to shoot with anyway.

Also, the Shadow Hawk will be availble to all players and even the Phoenix varaint is just a standard F2P model with a C-bill boost, kind of like Founders mechs. Can't call it Pay-to-Win when you get zero advantage using it to win a battle

You don't need to use all of the hard points in one build. But I agree that as long as MGs are as they are, there will be no real need for 3 hard points in one location.

But I could already see using the Shadow Hawk as a Hunchback 4G+. Probably with less Lasers then the 4G, but in exchange faster and with jump jets.

Who knows, maybe till then, Mediums are more useful on the battlefield then now. (One can hope, right?)

[Carrioncrows]

Viktor Drake, on 27 June 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Your kidding about the "good hardpoints" part right. 1 Energy, 3 Ballastic, 3 Missile on a 55 ton mech. There isn't enough weight available to take advantage of all those ballastic and missile hard points. 25 tons total useable weight if you go XL and Endo, 16 tons with standard structure and standard engine. Your not going to be fitting Gauss and AC/20s on this mech, not and have much else to shoot with anyway.

Those hardpoints are monster sir.

Lets say you put in a XL250 / 255 and you bring the armor up to almost max - 368 points

That still leaves you with 31.5 tons for weapons, ammo or pffft heat sinks. And it sure has hell is going to be used on heat sinks.

One of my favorite builds in a dragon is the Dragon-5N, it uses x2 AC5's and a AC2, and the shadowhawk here can fit the same build and roll around at 75 kph or 82 with speed tweak

There is so much you can do with this mech. Twin UAC5's, Twin AC5's, Triple AC2's. Gauss + UAC5 - yes it works I said it.

This whole thread reminds me of the time when I started a thread on how the Jagerbomb was going to displace the boomcat. Everyone said No!, and hell no, how those flimsy torso's the jager wasn't going to stand a chance.

=)

Just wait till it comes out.

[MaddMaxx]

Bagheera, on 27 June 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Not necessarily. Atlas and Battlemaster are the same weight class. Atlas weighs 15 tons more, Battlemaster is faster. Speed is the relationship between engine rating and weight class. Some mechs will come stock with bigger engines and some with smaller in the same weight bracket. Like the difference between a Cent -D and a Cent -A, for example.

But definitely a possibility, right?

[One Medic Army]

Carrioncrows, on 27 June 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Those hardpoints are monster sir.

Lets say you put in a XL250 / 255 and you bring the armor up to almost max - 368 points

That still leaves you with 31.5 tons for weapons, ammo or pffft heat sinks. And it sure has hell is going to be used on heat sinks.

One of my favorite builds in a dragon is the Dragon-5N, it uses x2 AC5's and a AC2, and the shadowhawk here can fit the same build and roll around at 75 kph or 82 with speed tweak

There is so much you can do with this mech. Twin UAC5's, Twin AC5's, Triple AC2's. Gauss + UAC5 - yes it works I said it.

This whole thread reminds me of the time when I started a thread on how the Jagerbomb was going to displace the boomcat. Everyone said No!, and hell no, how those flimsy torso's the jager wasn't going to stand a chance.

=)

Just wait till it comes out.

Or if you're going to put in a 250XL and only go in the low 70s you could just use a Jagermech and have more armor and guns.

Seriously, going that slow in a 55tonner that comes stock with a larger engine is a criminal waste of a chassis, and all you're doing is making a 55ton crappy Jagermech.

Edited by One Medic Army, 27 June 2013 - 08:46 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Not directed at anyone in-particular, but it seems somewhat ironic that PGI release a Mech that can't really "BOAT" anything and it is immediately trash piled for being useless.

Maybe the upcoming 3 will ALL have 45-70 Alpha strike capabilities so they to do not end up ion the trash heap as well.

[CutterWolf]

Edited by CutterWolf, 27 June 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[3rdworld]

MaddMaxx, on 27 June 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

Not directed at anyone in-particular, but it seems somewhat ironic that PGI release a Mech that can't really "BOAT" anything and it is immediately trash piled for being useless.

Maybe the upcoming 3 will ALL have 45-70 Alpha strike capabilities so they to do not end up ion the trash heap as well.

its the game we are playing. I don't make the rules.

[Ngamok]

Mercules, on 26 June 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

Ummmmm.... unlikely. The five extra tons isn't adding THAT much. An AC/20 HBK will lack JJs compared to a SHD-2H and a bit of armor. The SHD-2H won't really be able to pack on MORE weapons than the HBK if it still wants the extra armor and JJs so it is only slightly better. If the model is slightly larger than the HBK that would more than make up for the armor and JJs.

Now you could throw an ERPPC and 3 Streaks on it, maybe even get it's speed up a bit, but then what else would you put on? 3 Machines guns? It can't boat LRMs like an HBK or TBT. It can't boat SRM6s like a CN9 can or zombie all that well.

I think it is a nice change to the Medium field, but not really overpowered.

Exactly right. And as far as the TBTs go, people put PPCs on them with Jump Jets. I don't see how this will even change anything. I'd just change this one up and instead of going AC/20 and 3xML on my HBK-4G, I'd go AC/20 and SSRM2s or SRM6s with 1 ML.

[Carrioncrows]

One Medic Army, on 27 June 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Or if you're going to put in a 250XL and only go in the low 70s you could just use a Jagermech and have more armor and guns.

Seriously, going that slow in a 55tonner that comes stock with a larger engine is a criminal waste of a chassis, and all you're doing is making a 55ton crappy Jagermech.

Yes and no.

yes because on paper the weapons work out.

No, and because this is the primary reason I use the Dragon is that all of those hardpoints ARE in one location, there is no convergence issues it's all going to the same spot and that is a powerful tool.

On the other hand there is the competitive environment.

I am apart of the Marik Civil War league and we have drop limits for our 8v8's. 425,475,600. So yeah slowing down a 55 ton mech which isn't all that slow at 82 kph to turn it into a poor man's Jager is amazing.

Downgrading a Jager to a Shadowhawk, then with the difference you can take a highlander instead of an awesome.

So I'm sure I look at these mechs a little differently than the casual player.

Is that the best build for the Shadowhawk? Depends on your play style, i'm sure there will be all sorts of fantastic builds for this mech, maybe not builds that people prefer. One person's horrible hardpoints is another person's "Hawt Damn"

[Ngamok]

Sephlock, on 26 June 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

The Blackjack wasn't better in EVERY WAY (well, except for one variant). The Shadow Hawk comes OMGWTF FASTER even stock...

And the TBTs are super fast, so? The 3C can mount a 390 the others a 325. Zoooooom.

[Bagheera]

Carrioncrows, on 27 June 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

This whole thread reminds me of the time when I started a thread on how the Jagerbomb was going to displace the boomcat. Everyone said No!, and hell no, how those flimsy torso's the jager wasn't going to stand a chance.

=)

Just wait till it comes out.

So, basically the same thing I said in all of the "Jagermech is DOA" threads in the days leading to its release. Shadowhawk will be pretty fun, imo - even with my crack about Pay2LOL I like the layout.

The point though, is that the OP is just trolling and has no ground to stand on. Early access != p2w. And even if this were an MC only hero, there's nothing here that makes it empirically better than anything else. Not even an engine boost against other Shadowhawks, which all of the Heros except X-5 (because it can't) do get and no one cries p2w on those.

MaddMaxx, on 27 June 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

But definitely a possibility, right?

Certainly. It's just that being largest in a given class doesn't necessarily mean you will be the fastest in that class - though it could mean you have a larger/heavier engine than a faster mech which is in the lowest weight for a given class.

[Ngamok]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 26 June 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

The shadow hawk has 1.5 tons more freespace than the treb at 5/8 speeds (STD engine) and with JJ it has half a ton more free space than the QD. This is why the 5/8/X jump capable 55 ton mechs are considered so good and why there are many of them (Shadowhawk, Griffin, Wolverine, Dervish, Gladiator, etc). This is not however P2W because you can buy the non fancy version that has the exact same hard points with good old fashioned c-bills. Sure you have to wait a month but that's hardly P2W so much as pay for a very small and temporary advantage in what is overwhelmingly a skill based game. Now if we start seeing golden missiles and armor or pay MC to put clan tech on your IS ride I'll be worried.

Which is why people wanted the Dervish.

SmoothCriminal, on 26 June 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

There's a mech coming called a Timberwolf that's SO OP.

Calling the 75 ton Orion OP right now.

[Huntsman]

The phoenix varient looks pretty dicey. Compare it to the hunch 4g. The same 3 ballistic hardpoints in the side torso and the extra 5 tons isn't gonna make it any better of a dakka mech. At least the 4g has 3 energy points u can combine with perhaps an ac20 for a crappy but at least somewhat viable option that the SH can't match. Instead it'll suppliment something like the ac20 with heavier and trashier srms. The only way I see this thing working is with its massive engine and machine guns in the ballistic slots. Were they to buff srms and eliminate the cone of fire for mguns that could get scary...maybe.

Edited by Huntsman, 27 June 2013 - 09:21 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

MustrumRidcully, on 27 June 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

You don't need to use all of the hard points in one build. But I agree that as long as MGs are as they are, there will be no real need for 3 hard points in one location.

But I could already see using the Shadow Hawk as a Hunchback 4G+. Probably with less Lasers then the 4G, but in exchange faster and with jump jets.

Who knows, maybe till then, Mediums are more useful on the battlefield then now. (One can hope, right?)

I totally agree that you don't have to use ALL the hardpoints but that is exactly my point, the SH can't take advantage of all those hardpoints, not without resorting to MGs which don't have a whole lot of usefulness.

Carrioncrows, on 27 June 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Those hardpoints are monster sir.

Lets say you put in a XL250 / 255 and you bring the armor up to almost max - 368 points

That still leaves you with 31.5 tons for weapons, ammo or pffft heat sinks. And it sure has hell is going to be used on heat sinks.

One of my favorite builds in a dragon is the Dragon-5N, it uses x2 AC5's and a AC2, and the shadowhawk here can fit the same build and roll around at 75 kph or 82 with speed tweak

There is so much you can do with this mech. Twin UAC5's, Twin AC5's, Triple AC2's. Gauss + UAC5 - yes it works I said it.

This whole thread reminds me of the time when I started a thread on how the Jagerbomb was going to displace the boomcat. Everyone said No!, and hell no, how those flimsy torso's the jager wasn't going to stand a chance.

=)

Just wait till it comes out.

Your absolutely right. By downgrading the speed of the mech substancially, you can fit more in the way of weapons but that kind of defeats the purpose. I mean if your only going to be able to run at 75kph, why even use a Shadow Hawk? You could instead go with a Cataphract 3D that is 15 tons heavier giving it more armor, more weapons, more alpha, more dps and more jumpjets and get pretty much the same speed. Think you could also come up with a Jaggy that is better than the SH would be in a smilar config as well.

Do no I don't really see the potential with SH, at the only variant we know about right now anyway.

[Ngamok]

Monky, on 26 June 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

You're getting 1 pay variant and there will be at least 3 non pay variants.

I do agree that in a largely philosophical sense, and somewhat real sense, payed variants ARE pay to win. This has proven true with Ilya, and can prove true to even worse degree with other mechs, and is why I don't pay these guys money.

We're essentially one bad dev decision from pay 2 win. One overlooked combination of weapons that isn't otherwise possible and is incredibly powerful. The only arguement to the contrary that is practical is flooding the system with non payed variants to eventually allow overlap in terms of hardpoints (jaeger semi-counters ilya in being able to mount 3x UAC5/3x MLas).

I agree with you in a sense that i don't want P2W in this game (or any game for that matter), the Ilya was borderline as the 3D was more widely favored. The Ilya was borderline because of the 3xUAC5 build. That's it. Other than that, the Ilya can load out the exact same thing as the 3D but no jump jets.

[ryoma]

Wow this thread shows just how toxic the community has gotten!

To all the people downing on the Shadow hawk's hard points, you're so dense. It's just like with the founders hunchie with terribad hard points. The other 2 variants will likely have less ballistics and more lasers. Heck we may even get one with an ER ppcs instead of ballistics!