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Shadowhawk Discussion Time.


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#21 Lyoncet

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:12 PM

I think the Shadow Hawk is a really clever design. Why? A number of reasons--small, but significant when taken together.

They're probably in the 30-degree hill climb slowdown grouping, and on the larger side of that grouping. They're the largest possible 'Mech that can mount Class IV jump jets. Big enough to have respectable armor with good hardpoints, and capable of equipping the optimal engine sizes for a 55-tonner (in the 300 range standard, or around 350 for XL). Able to get 21 armor on the rear side torsos while keeping over 30 in the front (good protection against AC/20 backstabs, and means 2 AC/20 shots to the front can't outright crit you). Able to carry some long-range weapons like ACs, Gauss, or a PPC, with ample room for streaks or other SRMs to beat back lights. All while easily getting upwards of 100 km/h and sporting jump capability.

Unfortunately (or maybe not), in a boat-or-bust meta, these things won't make it an insta-win chassis like the X-PPC-Y builds. But as others have noted, it's very well positioned to ride out whatever bumps the balance team throws our way and capitalize on whatever the meta shifts toward down the road. As long as said shift isn't back towards X-PPC-Y builds. :)

#22 TehSBGX

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:33 PM

View PostBigBangA1, on 29 June 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

I think the Shadowhawk could be a fantastic light hunter. 3 SSRM 2's, LBX AC 10, and a medium laser would be a pretty good pay load. Throw in BAP and you can take down those annoying Raven 3L's. Throw in jumpjets and the largest XL engine that will fit and you do tons of damage.

I was going to go for a similar build, the S-hawk really seems intended for a light hunter. Not sure what variants they have in store though, if they have a variant like the 2Hb with a second energy hardpoint in the arm it could be a pretty respectable skirmisher.

Edit - The ssrm/lbx build i was going for
http://goo.gl/MHDKt

Edited by TehSBGX, 01 July 2013 - 06:40 PM.


#23 Hex Pallett

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:18 PM

Let's do some math. What if we try our best to make it a beefed-up Hunchback 4G?

AC20(3ton)+3xSSRM2(1ton)+BAP makes 24 tons, plus 2.5 tons of two JJ and an AMS. To achieve 81 km/h tweaked means a STD250 which weights 18.5 tons. The chassis itself should weight 5.5 tons, but Endo-Steel takes off half of weight which means it would weight 2.25 tons. That's 47.25 tons without any heatsinks or armor or any energy weapons, if my math is correct.

Which means it would be severely underarmored than a Hunchback if I use it as a Hunchback.

#24 armyunit

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:32 PM

View PostHelmstif, on 01 July 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

Let's do some math. What if we try our best to make it a beefed-up Hunchback 4G?

AC20(3ton)+3xSSRM2(1ton)+BAP makes 24 tons, plus 2.5 tons of two JJ and an AMS. To achieve 81 km/h tweaked means a STD250 which weights 18.5 tons. The chassis itself should weight 5.5 tons, but Endo-Steel takes off half of weight which means it would weight 2.25 tons. That's 47.25 tons without any heatsinks or armor or any energy weapons, if my math is correct.

Which means it would be severely underarmored than a Hunchback if I use it as a Hunchback.


You could always drop the AMS for armor, and swapping one of the SSRMs for a Med laser and 1/2 ton of armor wouldn't be a bad idea either IMO.


Anyway, based on current weapons and tech, following variants should be possible, assuming they are within the timeline. (Taken from Sarna):
  • SHD-2Hb - The Royal upgrade of the Shadow Hawk changes the role of the 'Mech to a close-range brawler. The weapon systems are replaced with a LB 10-X AC, two Streak SRM-2 and two medium lasers. The heat sinks are doubles and the ammo is protected by CASE. To save weight it uses Endo-Steel chassis and Ferro-Fibrous armor.
  • SHD-2K - The -2K Shadow Hawk dramatically overhauls the chassis by replacing all original armaments, save the LRM-5, with a Donal PPC and extra heat sinks. This House Kurita specialty became one of the deadliest units of the Succession Wars.
  • SHD-2D - The -2D looks to increase the close range capabilities of the Shadow Hawk at great cost to its armor. The -2D reduces the armor protection by five tons and adds a second SRM-2 launcher and an additional Medium Laser.
  • SHD-2D2 - The -2D2 is an upgrade of the -2D Shadow Hawk. This upgrade changes the SRM-2 launchers to Streak SRM-2s and carries a total of six and a half tons of armor. Otherwise, it is identical to the -2D Shadow Hawk. (Not likely to be included, since same hardpoints as the SHD-2D)
  • SHD-5M - The -5M Shadow Hawk is the first complete overhaul and upgrade of the design. The chassis has been upgraded with Endo Steel, the engine is an extralight version, and the weapons load has undergone an almost complete renovation. The 'Mech uses double heat sinks, carries ten and a half tons of armor with CASE, and is armed with an Ultra Autocannon/5, LRM-20 launcher, Streak SRM-2, and a Medium Laser. In addition, the jumping distance is now a full 150 meters. (Can someone find the timeline date of this variant? This one sounds amazing but I suspect that it doesn't fit into the timeline)

Edited by armyunit, 01 July 2013 - 07:34 PM.


#25 Padic

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:36 PM

How about a little headhunter build...

1x AC2
1x LPL
{2xSRM 4 + 1x SRM 2 or 1xSRM6+1xSRM4+1xSRM2 or 3x SSRM2 + BAP}

Leaves plenty of room for ~XL300 + near max armor plus, depending on the missile choice, maybe even FF? And a pair of jump jets.

The AC2 lets you start tagging targets out to any range, and the LPL + SRMs give you a pretty stout close-range punch, relative to the weight class.

Like all mediums, maneuverability is going to be the name of the game, still - but this seems fun.

EDIT: Smurfy Link... http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9e6f1b2b3a87e5b

Note that this is using every critical slot, so there's no way to swap out the LPL for a PPC without doing some juggling - presumably swapping the SRM6 for an SRM4 and losing half a ton of armor in favor of an XL305? Who the heck owns an XL305?

EDIT 2: Nevermind. If you're really desperate for a PPC, you can do it more gracefully by swapping out the missiles for streaks. I suppose the EMP synergy is nice, too.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...183e3c6aba09017

Edited by Padic, 02 July 2013 - 04:54 PM.


#26 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:05 PM

In my opinion it is going to be pretty much DoA for any type of competitive game play, at least the 2H variant.

The biggest issues are two fold.

One, there is no synergy between the weapon hardpoints.

Two, it sorely lacks energy hardpoints.

I will address the synergy issues first. The hardpoint configuration on the 2H is 1 energy, 3 missile, 3 ballastic as we all know. What this means however is that your going to end up with 3 very different weapon systems, each with its own engagment ranges, aim points and cooldowns. This is going to make it very difficult to concentrate fire and will like result in spreading fire all over a enemy mech rather than being able to deliver a knock down punch. Additonally the tonnage limitations are going to prevent you from equiping anything with enough major punch for it to be able to deliver a decisive blow. The exception is a loadout mounting 2 SRM6s and a SRM 4 which on paper offer a great alpha strike but in practice is very lacking due to missile spread and general inaccuracy. Other than that, there is nothing that will allow you any sort of concentrated punch. You can go a PPC or ER PPC in the Energy slot but then you will have to sacrific either missile, ballastics or both. Same goes for Missiles or ballastics. Mount something heavy in one area, sacrifice heavily somewhere else.

The second part concerning the energy mounts is really an extention of the first problem. Basically light weight energy weapons such a medium laser are almost required for medium mechs to provide the necessary boost to firepower without taking up large amounts of the very limited tonnage medium mechs have. Unfortunately the SHD-2H only offers up one of these precious slots, thus negating the ability to increase your firepower without devoting tonnage you can't spare.

The end result of all this looks like it is going to lead to a very general mech that excells at nothing.

The best builds will probably end up being a ER PPC, UAC/5 and Streaks as this at least gives you good, dependable DPS with decent long range sniping/harrassing ability. Alternatively you might drop the streaks in favor of a single SRM6 launcher or perhaps a LRM10/LRM15 if you can scrape up some tonnage. You could try a Gauss but I think your going to find that you would have to give up too much in other areas for that to be effective. AC/20 is going to be almost impossible to fit because it will require a standard engine which will significant cut down on available tonnage.

#27 Grimmnyr

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:08 PM

I just hope we get the Marik variant, it might make me take a break from my Centurion. The Marik Shadow Hawk was intended to be a fast sniper, like most Marik mechs.

Edited by Ed Steele, 01 July 2013 - 10:09 PM.


#28 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:19 PM

View Postarmyunit, on 01 July 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:


You could always drop the AMS for armor, and swapping one of the SSRMs for a Med laser and 1/2 ton of armor wouldn't be a bad idea either IMO.


Anyway, based on current weapons and tech, following variants should be possible, assuming they are within the timeline. (Taken from Sarna):
  • SHD-2Hb - The Royal upgrade of the Shadow Hawk changes the role of the 'Mech to a close-range brawler. The weapon systems are replaced with a LB 10-X AC, two Streak SRM-2 and two medium lasers. The heat sinks are doubles and the ammo is protected by CASE. To save weight it uses Endo-Steel chassis and Ferro-Fibrous armor.
  • SHD-2K - The -2K Shadow Hawk dramatically overhauls the chassis by replacing all original armaments, save the LRM-5, with a Donal PPC and extra heat sinks. This House Kurita specialty became one of the deadliest units of the Succession Wars.
  • SHD-2D - The -2D looks to increase the close range capabilities of the Shadow Hawk at great cost to its armor. The -2D reduces the armor protection by five tons and adds a second SRM-2 launcher and an additional Medium Laser.
  • SHD-2D2 - The -2D2 is an upgrade of the -2D Shadow Hawk. This upgrade changes the SRM-2 launchers to Streak SRM-2s and carries a total of six and a half tons of armor. Otherwise, it is identical to the -2D Shadow Hawk. (Not likely to be included, since same hardpoints as the SHD-2D)
  • SHD-5M - The -5M Shadow Hawk is the first complete overhaul and upgrade of the design. The chassis has been upgraded with Endo Steel, the engine is an extralight version, and the weapons load has undergone an almost complete renovation. The 'Mech uses double heat sinks, carries ten and a half tons of armor with CASE, and is armed with an Ultra Autocannon/5, LRM-20 launcher, Streak SRM-2, and a Medium Laser. In addition, the jumping distance is now a full 150 meters. (Can someone find the timeline date of this variant? This one sounds amazing but I suspect that it doesn't fit into the timeline)


The SHD-2Hb looks really good if it makes it. 2 Energy Arm, 2 Missile RT and probably 2 ballastic LT. This would give a very balanced load (was hoping the 2H would have been like this...oh well).

Also I actually have a feeling the 5M with make it in since PGI like to throw out at least one "Advanced" chassis into the mix and a chassis with a minor difference to hardpoints and extra jumping distance is just up PGIs alley. If you don't believe me just look at the Quickdraw 4G and 4H variants. Only difference is one less hardpoint in place of the ability to mount two extra JJs.

Of the rest of them, the 2D seems most likely because it adds an addtional missile and energy hardpoint. Honestly it would be kind of cool to see a version with 4 missile slots, 2 energy and 1 ballastic.

The 2K could make it in or prehaps replace the 2Hb since that one appears more odd ball than the rest. If so I would expect a smiliar config as I mentioned above.

In any case wish we didnt have to wait until Oct.

#29 Sunrise86

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 04:23 AM

Although this Shadow Hawk still unreleased mech and the stock loadout may change in future when it's released, but this may be my Shadow Hawk-->http://SHD-2H

Edited by Sunrise86, 02 July 2013 - 04:28 AM.


#30 Lyoncet

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:49 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 01 July 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

<snip>



I see where you're coming from, but I respectfully disagree. Or rather, you're mostly right, but I'm hoping that by October, the game will have been rebalanced a bit to make a wider range of builds viable.

Even barring that, I think you're underestimating the ability of 6 SSRMs to provide that backup punch you mentioned. While they're shorter range than MLAS, this 'Mech is probably usually going to be going in the mid 80s to high 90s km/h with jump jets, so I don't see the shorter range being that much of a problem. Especially since you can have a LLAS/PPC and/or mid-sized Autocannon to give you mid-to-long range punch.

Also, and I can hardly believe I'm saying this, but I think the three ballistic slots will be genuinely useful. While it's not as good as stacking up some more MLAS, putting in a few machine guns in there isn't a terrible fallback option on a speedy 'Mech with around 300 armor. It would probably be a better 'Mech if it had another energy hardpoint or two, but I think between the ability to mass Streaks and the ballistics, it'll have ample low weight, moderate efficiency weapons.

In closing, I suspect this is one of those 'Mechs that will usually perform better if you don't try to fill every last hardpoint. Having to decide whether you want a big autocannon ore more missiles isn't a bad thing. It's a very good thing, because you can shift your loadout in whichever direction fits your playstyle or the current meta. That's a great strength to have, even if it's too bad you can't stack MLAS to take up those last few tons.

Edited by Lyoncet, 02 July 2013 - 05:52 AM.


#31 Padic

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:41 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 01 July 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

In my opinion it is going to be pretty much DoA for any type of competitive game play, at least the 2H variant.

The biggest issues are two fold.

One, there is no synergy between the weapon hardpoints.

Two, it sorely lacks energy hardpoints.
...


This train of logic is super common and, I think, super dangerous. "If it can't do something that we know is good, it is bad".

Even though it's definitely true that a Shadowhawk cannot carry a huge, pin-point alpha or boat medium lasers, your conclusion that it'll be DoA is over-eager. Even ignoring balance changes, the game is still new, and the game-space is big. What we consider to be "optimal" today might be merely mediocre tomorrow as new strategies emerge and new loadouts appear to take advantage of them.

In fact, because the Shadowhawk has a "some-of-every-hardpoint" style loadout, it seems like it will be well positioned to fill new niches as they appear.

Knowing what is good is good. Using knowledge of what is good to shout down experimentation is bad.

#32 Koniving

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:34 AM

View PostZionStation, on 28 June 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:



I like that mechlab. I think I'll be dropping both the Smurfy one and the recently discovered Goons lab.

#33 Urdnot Mau

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 09:00 AM

I'm running 2 AC/ 5 and 2 medium lasers in my 7K and i can say that this is a very good build. In the Shadow Hawk we will be able to fit 1 large laser and run at 97 kph... With a smaller engine people will be able to fit 2 AC 5 + PPC. I've tried 1 AC 5 + PPC in the 7K and i had a great result :)

#34 Wintersdark

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:06 AM

I'm really liking [SHD-2H]: 3xMG, 3xSSRM, ERLL, 350XL, 14DHS, 2JJ, Endo. Can drop either a ton of MG or SSRM ammo (I'd go MG) to upgrade to FF armor, this allows maxing the mech's armor but leaves you with an unspent .6tons and no slots free. I'm loathe to give up ammo, though, as it's a fairly ammo dependent build.

#35 DerMaulwurf

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:19 AM

I'm hoping to see the 5M, just to guarantee a variant with 5JJs. Although PGI might decide to allow that on another variant, of course.

I'm not to excited with the Phoenix Variant, as I'm not a fan of 3 ballistic hardpoints in one component. But a fastish (275+) jumping Mech with Gauss + PPC or massed SRM is still quite to my taste.

#36 Gigastrike

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 04:12 PM

SHD-2H

Probably the best build I've come up with so far (mech isn't making it easy with only 1 energy hardpoint). Good damage at medium-long ranges, and enough speed to out-maneuver heavies, but still quite capable of handling itself at close range.

Edited by Gigastrike, 02 July 2013 - 04:13 PM.


#37 An Ax Murderer

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:18 AM

What about this? It is quick enough, especially considering it doesn't carry an XL engine.

[SHD-2H]: 3xMG, 3xSRM4, LLAS, 280STD, DHS, Endo

Armor might could use some tweaking (but I play hunchbacks so I don't mind having low rear armor)

Also, I don't know what the heat is, I can't find it on the Oosik site...

Edited by An Ax Murderer, 03 July 2013 - 10:20 AM.


#38 J I N

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:25 PM

I learned to love pinpoint damage, so I came up with this guy:
SHD-2H ER PPC + AC20
You can fight at any range, and you got as much speed as most other mediums. In fact this build is a support sniper and late-time brawler to hunt damaged enemys.

Does anybody have an idea to use 3x AC2 on this one? I can't find a build that seems to work....

#39 TehSBGX

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:40 PM

View PostViktor Drake, on 01 July 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:


Of the rest of them, the 2D seems most likely because it adds an addtional missile and energy hardpoint. Honestly it would be kind of cool to see a version with 4 missile slots, 2 energy and 1 ballastic.



If the 2D gets those hardpoints, it'll end up being the best one. The amount of fun things that can be done with it are pretty epic.

#40 Lyoncet

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:21 PM

View PostJIN1987, on 03 July 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

I learned to love pinpoint damage, so I came up with this guy:
SHD-2H ER PPC + AC20
You can fight at any range, and you got as much speed as most other mediums. In fact this build is a support sniper and late-time brawler to hunt damaged enemys.

Does anybody have an idea to use 3x AC2 on this one? I can't find a build that seems to work....


SHD-2H

Mind you I'd never really recommend this build. I think the SHD is the wrong chassis to go boating AC/2s - although I've had success in months past with a triple AC/2 Dragon 5N. Just keep in mind that it takes a very particular playstyle to make that kind of loadout work. I'm pretty certain the Shadow Hawk is capable of it, but not having had my hands on it it's impossible to tell.

That kind of playstyle is sort of like a backstabber. (I run a similar 2-AC version on my BJ-1 so that's what I'm basing this off of.) If you try trading blow-for-blow, you'll get chewed to pieces. So don't even bother. The two things you're good at are 1) punishing their LRM boats and denying them their perches and 2) sneaking up on an enemy 'Mech that's already engaged and coring it from the rear. It looks like with the SHD's speed and jets that won't be an issue, but I thought I'd offer that disclaimer first.

Also I have no idea if that's competitive at higher levels. Alpha strikers will say no; not being in a nothing-but-alpha Elo, I can't tell you. And further I have no idea if this has enough fallback weaponry or enough ammo to be viable. But I've found 2 AC/2 and 2 MLAS in a BJ-1 usually nets me between 450 and 550 damage and between 1 and 4 kills per match, so I'd assume it's at least workable, if not optimal.

Also, just FYI, it takes about 5 seconds of this to core a Catapult, 6 for a Cataphract, and 8 for an Atlas. Just going by the stock builds in the testing grounds.

Ahem.

Anyways, the few builds I'm eyeing at the moment look like this:

SHD-2H - Play to your Strengths (assuming XL is viable in the SHD)

SHD-2H - Play to your Strengths (assuming it's not)

SHD-2H - Just-shoot-me-now PPC/Gauss

SHD-2H - Long-range support with streaks

SHD-2H - Knife fighter XL

SHD-2H - Standard engine build of the above


I think the Shadow Hawk lends itself more to a short-range backstabber/scrapper than a flanker, fire-support, or alpha 'Mech, so most of the builds try to capitalize on that. And since we have confirmation that PGI's rebalancing alpha builds and SRMs, I feel like this type of loadout will be more workable well before Phoenix goes live.

Then again, what do I know? :rolleyes:

Edited by Lyoncet, 03 July 2013 - 05:06 PM.






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