366 replies to this topic

[Nairdowell]

By 360 twist, are you refering to turning 180 degrees from either side so to shoot to the rear while striding forward, or are you saying the mech's top half can pivot in a circle indefinitely, like a turret?

In a humanoid shaped mech, even the clanners, the power and control runs to the lower half would have to have limitiers to prevent them from spiralling tighter and tighter (though would love to actually see a mech "wind the clock" and be forceably unwound in combat!) until either they break or bind up....
Mechs like the Goliath, with an actual turret, yes, 360 degrees.... all others 180 max....

[MilitantMonk]

Balance. Two meanings intended. Try swinging a 10 ton cannon around without proper counter weight while moving at 60kph. Mechs aren't turrets. If every mech could spin 360 it'd be rather boring and unbalanced. How can a lighter mech fight an assault class if it can never get a shot at the back because the mech can torso twist and keep facing front at all times?

[Egomane]

So instead of bringing new arguments you start trolling, Teralitha? I hoped we left that behind us.
- I already told you what I do when I want to play tabletop battletech.
- I already told you that I am not against change.
- I already gave you a possible compromise. That you refused to even adress once.

You should not demand something you want, you are no little child (at least I hope you are not), but argue like a grown men/women for it. Trolling will never help you get what you want.

Nairdowell, on 12 June 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

By 360 twist, are you refering to turning 180 degrees from either side so to shoot to the rear while striding forward, or are you saying the mech's top half can pivot in a circle indefinitely, like a turret?

The later!

[Teralitha]

MilitantMonk, on 12 June 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

Balance. Two meanings intended. Try swinging a 10 ton cannon around without proper counter weight while moving at 60kph. Mechs aren't turrets. If every mech could spin 360 it'd be rather boring and unbalanced. How can a lighter mech fight an assault class if it can never get a shot at the back because the mech can torso twist and keep facing front at all times?

Try driving a 100 ton machine that walks on 2 legs, moves 60kph and fires a 10 ton cannon.

Note - this isnt reality. Anything is possible. Anything. Even 360 torso twisting.

A car tire turns 360 infinitley, yet it is attached to a larger machine with static componants. It IS possible. Even in reality! Now get over your rule lawyering selves....

[Egomane]

That car tire doesn't need to be controled in a direct way. Try doing that with legs!

And in the Battletech universe there is no magical, momentum negating, magic either. The law of cause and effect is still intact. So no, not anything is possible. Even this Sci-fi setting has its limitations. If you want to capture and simulate this setting you can not do anything you want.

[Teralitha]

Egomane, on 12 June 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

Trolling will never help you get what you want.

You are the troll. All classic BT rules lawyers are the trolls on this forum. They want to ruin a fun simulation game and take it back to the table. What they fail to realize .... Mechwarrior - TACTICS, exists for them. Mechwarrior ONLINE, exists for me.

Your in the wrong forums go here - http://www.mwtactics...tm_medium=email

Edited by Teralitha, 12 June 2012 - 06:51 AM.

[Killashnikov]

In TT only quads could mount a turret capable of 360⁰ twist... But I understand that quads will not be implemented yet.

[Egomane]

Teralitha, go get your perspective straightened up. You do not realize what you are doing here. Anger is the worst advisor you can get.

Take a minute off!
Cool yourself down!
Re-read all the dev blogs and announcements made for this game by the devs!
This game is not for you!
This game is not for me!
This game is for us!
It is for all the battletech fans out there. No matter if they come from the tabletop or the computer gaming world.

Edited by Egomane, 12 June 2012 - 06:54 AM.

[Teralitha]

Egomane, on 12 June 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

Teralitha, go get your perspective straightened up. You do not realize what you are doing here. Anger is the worst advisor you can get.

Take a minute off!
Cool yourself down!
Re-read all the dev blogs and announcements made for this game by the devs!
This game is not for you!
This game is not for me!
This game is for us!

If the game is for US, then why are you fighting me.


Support 360

Edited by Teralitha, 12 June 2012 - 06:55 AM.

[Killashnikov]

The biggest problem with implementing the 360 twist in the logic of the battletech unierse is that the mech relies on the instinctive balance and senses of the human pilot to keep it upright, and very few people can turn their torso much more than 90 degrees, thus the pilot's brain isnt wired right to balance the mech with the torso pointing backwards and the legs pointing forwards... Try staying upright while running forwards and looking (and aiming at) someone running after you.

[Egomane]

Teralitha, on 12 June 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

If the game is for US, then why are you fighting me.

Because your point of view is not automagical the right one. Neither is mine!

[Teralitha]

Killashnikov, on 12 June 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

The biggest problem with implementing the 360 twist in the logic of the battletech unierse is that the mech relies on the instinctive balance and senses of the human pilot to keep it upright, and very few people can turn their torso much more than 90 degrees, thus the pilot's brain isnt wired right to balance the mech with the torso pointing backwards and the legs pointing forwards... Try staying upright while running forwards and looking (and aiming at) someone running after you.

Mechs have gyros. without them, a mech would simply fall over itself every time it moved.

I invented 360 torso twisting on battlemechs. There fore, it now exists. Hail to the mother of invention!

Edited by Teralitha, 12 June 2012 - 07:05 AM.

[Steel Talon]

Egomane, on 12 June 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

We don't know how limited those arms are. We also do not know how limited or unlimited, the "turntable" will be. It could very well be, that cables, power lines, munition feeds and a lot of other things we don't see, but that are probably inside the mech, will hamper a total rotation.

Mech may often be described as walking tanks, but unlike tanks, their legs and their torso are not seperate entities like the turret and the body of a tank.

Today tanks are full of electronics, ammo feeds & can turn 360 without limits.
Why certain mechs cant use same technology?
As for 1 weakness we can add for 360 mechs is hit to turntable can cause damage to it & can completely stuck your torso like turret in WoT

[Slyck]

Victor Morson, on 12 June 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

They have nothing in common with humans aside from the "4 limbs"

And the skeleton and the muscles and the nervous system, all of which you seem to agree with. You do an excellent job of pointing out that these systems can be engineered to be more then human, which I'm all cool with. I have issues with some of the designs like chicken walkers, but the rule of cool wins out.

My point though, which you failed to address, is that battlemechs have MORE in common with a human structurally, then say, a modern tank. When people have these arguments about the physical capabilties of mechs it should be done from a cannonical perspective rather then a modern one.

Note: In TT the Catapult cannot punch as it lacks the proper acuators.

[DerMaulwurf]

Steel Talon, on 12 June 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

Today tanks are full of electronics, ammo feeds & can turn 360 without limits.
Why certain mechs cant use same technology?
As for 1 weakness we can add for 360 mechs is hit to turntable can cause damage to it & can completely stuck your torso like turret in WoT

For the same reason that makes Mechs (and BT Tanks) have vastly inferior weapon ranges.

[BuSH]

MW4 only had it in mechs that supported it.

[Egomane]

Steel Talon, on 12 June 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

Today tanks are full of electronics, ammo feeds & can turn 360 without limits.
Why certain mechs cant use same technology?

Do you know how a modern day tank works? Ever been inside one or seen one getting completly dismantled for maintenance?

Did you know that on old battleships the turrets would simply drop out of their sockets if the ship is turned upside down? There are some very interesting shipwrecks out in our oceans that show that quite drastically. Tank turrets are not much different from that. They are own entities mounted on top of the tanks main body.

[Teralitha]

Slyck, on 12 June 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

And the skeleton and the muscles and the nervous system, all of which you seem to agree with. You do an excellent job of pointing out that these systems can be engineered to be more then human, which I'm all cool with. I have issues with some of the designs like chicken walkers, but the rule of cool wins out.

My point though, which you failed to address, is that battlemechs have MORE in common with a human structurally, then say, a modern tank. When people have these arguments about the physical capabilties of mechs it should be done from a cannonical perspective rather then a modern one.

Note: In TT the Catapult cannot punch as it lacks the proper acuators.

While mechs have a "skeleton" it is made of metal, and IS man made, and is flexible, and can be shaped in any way we desire, because they are just machines. Machines we created, in our own image... but lacking our LIMITATIONS. Boom.


Support 360

Edited by Teralitha, 12 June 2012 - 07:25 AM.

[Rodney28021]

Roland, on 09 June 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

There's a reason why most armored vehicles do.


Ultimately, you can't really go by the TT rules regarding this... because things like the minutia of torso twist aren't really represented to a high degree of detail.

The notion of 360 torso twisting isn't something that is ultimately game breaking, if implemented well.

MW4 implemented it well. Torso twist was different from mech to mech... only a very select few had a full 360 degree torso twist capability. Off the top of my head, they were the Thor, Thanatos, Raven.... maybe that's it? I don't remember any others at the moment.

Torso twist lends another interesting element of character to individual chassis... Gives another balancing point for making different chassis worth piloting.

So, in some cases where someone might say, "Why would anyone pilot that chassis? Chassis X is better." A reason could be because the seemingly inferior chassis has better torso twist.

Yeah it is Gamebreaking. That was another reason the MW X games were so unbalanced in PVP. 360degree Torso Twists are not in the TT rule for many reasons. Just because those games from MS had it, does not mean MWO should have it. Tanks have turrets, those turrets are mostly empty space. Mechs have more than half of their mass above the torso joint and some of it moves causing changing center of gravity. MS put 360degree Torso Twists in for kicks or to make the game fun for the masses, especially for the PVE. 360degree Torso Twists let the mech run at full speed while the front of mech is pointed to the rear. That is so wrong for pvp in MWO.

[Aggammenonn]

heh, 360 torso twist sounds like something you should call an exorcist about....