65 replies to this topic

[The14th]

xDeityx, on 03 July 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

We are not in the final stages of development, not by a long shot. We are missing huge chunks of the game.

Beta tests are feature-complete or very close to it. We are in a public alpha test that we have the option to pay for.

Also, why so hostile? Just because I post a dissenting opinion I am either illiterate or a troll? That's not the way to have an honest conversation man. Can you point out to me the portion of the definition I quoted that you think disagrees with what I said?

I'm hostile because I've heard all this before during the LoL beta and no longer have any patience for such "dissenting opinions". Same goes for the "shouldn't charge during a beta" argument.

[xDeityx]

The14th, on 03 July 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

I'm hostile because I've heard all this before during the LoL beta and no longer have any patience for such "dissenting opinions". Same goes for the "shouldn't charge during a beta" argument.

Well be an adult and control yourself. Don't direct your anger at something that happened years ago at me.

Beta test has a certain meaning that includes being feature-complete or nearly so. Years ago developers started calling things beta that weren't because it profited them to do so. That doesn't make them beta tests all of the sudden.

Edited by xDeityx, 03 July 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[Ngamok]

Sorry but all you people are jumping the gun. Just like every other game, people will figure out where to go on their heavier mechs and learn routes. It's just like other games where people take favored routes that they are comfortable with. Give it time instead of just jumping ont he forums and whine about not running up the side of a building like Batman and Robin.

Edited by Ngamok, 03 July 2013 - 10:25 AM.

[Kyle Wright]

Thundercles, on 03 July 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

Having played a decent number of matches, about the only real effect I've seen is the elimination of flanking routes and forcing people out into the open for PPC boats. I like the INTENT behind the movement system, but it could stand some tweaking.

I do wonder where the 45 degree number was pulled from - the whole thing about mechs was that they were more mobile than wheeled/tracked vehicles... yet modern tanks can park on 60 degree slopes without a problem. I say at this point, bring on the Demolisher.

Wrong its a 60% grade... not 60 degrees. 60%grade is roughly 35degree angle.

[Sephlock]

Admit it, OP: You just want to do this:

[MasterErrant]

obviously needs some tweaking. doesn't seem tomatter what you're in...powerclimbing seems broken now...and I want these rules...weight shouldn't matter speed (IE power to weight ratio) and 80 kph mech is an 80 kph mech regardless of mass.

[Cr4Zy K0wLa]

At least twice last night my mech suddenly dropped from 130 kph to 40 kph running through flat terrain on the canyon network map. At first I thought enemy chasing mechs had taken out a leg, but I hadn't been hit. The speed throttle had been preset to max and I wasn't running on any kind of an incline.

In both situations I got pummeled trying to regain my speed advantage. I guess the glitch must have something to do with the recent patch

[Victor Morson]

Cr4Zy K0wLa, on 03 July 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

At least twice last night my mech suddenly dropped from 130 kph to 40 kph running through flat terrain on the canyon network map. At first I thought enemy chasing mechs had taken out a leg, but I hadn't been hit. The speed throttle had been preset to max and I wasn't running on any kind of an incline.

In both situations I got pummeled trying to regain my speed advantage. I guess the glitch must have something to do with the recent patch

If your left or right foot lands against the start of one of the sloped walls you will immediately come crashing down to nothing.

[MasterErrant]

Victor Morson, on 03 July 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

Unlike my other threads, this is not about the invisible wall dead stop issue or inability to climb knee-high stuff. This is about typical overland movement.

The whole point of the movement system was to give lights and mediums an easier time of moving around on rough and steep terrain, or even access areas assaults would have trouble accessing.

However, in addition to the system's other issues.. it's not benefiting the lights and mediums nearly enough, due to the rapid speed falloff canceling their momentum.

The result? Mediums get slowed down almost as badly as assaults running up hills - and cannot clear hills that assaults could not also clear in most cases. Mediums also get slowed down on "flat land" if it slopes too much. Three times on Forest colony I happened to run over some flat looking terrain that sloped a little too high and found my speed plummeting to under 40 from nearly 100 in under a second several times.

Assaults have tons of armor and don't move very quick. These brief speed losses don't hurt them nearly as badly as a result. But any medium "caught on a slope" that happens to hit JUST the right degree to sap the engine.. and bam. The medium is screwed.

I'd really think the penalty should be way, way more stacked for rough terrain - something like:

20% reduced speed (lights)
30% reduced speed (mediums)
50% reduced speed (heavies)
70% reduced speed (assaults)

(Yes I am aware it's based on "size" and not "tonnage." Why, I have no idea.)

It also drop the momentum considerably slower. Less "1 second full stop" and more "6 seconds to full stop." That way hitting these little bumps in the terrain might start reducing a Centurion's speed to 30 (where the slope would drop you now), thus only dropping it a few KPH before the Cent pilot gets off of the slope and recovers.

Likewise, momentum would allow mediums and lights to actually clear rolling hills that they should be able to. As it stands now a Centurion moving at 110 cannot clear the snow drifts on Alpine. NO, NOT THE HILLS. The snow drifts. The little puddles of snow now defeat a fast medium just as badly as an assault.

Long story short, this system could be used to give lighter mechs a huge shot in the arm they've been needing. In fact, it's kind of genius for that - we could later see maps with rolling hills that would favor mediums, as well as swamp maps to do the same by applying the same "climbing speed reductions" to water. That would be awesome and a great way to help balance classes thinking out side of the box.

Instead we have a "one wrong turn and you're a sitting duck, and you can't really clear terrain assaults can't.. and if you're in a medium or light without jets, that Highlander with jets is now going to outmaneuver you on some terrain."

This was meant to help lights & mediums and it hurt them instead, as well as the overall game. Again there are other problems with this system and the dead stops.. but even if they fix that, it's still the reverse of what we need right now.

you arte partially wrong. it's about making jumping mechs valuable as other than poptarts. light mechs are just a affected by terrain as any other...they still move faster. but taking a fight into water is a classic tactic to slow lights and make em easier to hit.

you know that big lake in the forest colony...well it's a bad bad place for fast light mechs.

[Victor Morson]

Jumping was already incredibly valuable other than poptarting.

We already had terrain inaccessible outside of JJs - the buildings on Frozen City are a perfect example of that. Likewise, we had positions that could only be accessed from one direction without JJs, like some of the defensive hills on Forest Colony. This was fine.

Plus, people need to stop overlooking "Gliding" with jump jets. Being able to move at full speed in one direction while lining up a shot in another and positioning your strongest armor to whatever facing you need is a massively powerful ability.

This change was not made to improve jump jets. Not even a little bit, as evidenced by the way they will crash you to 0 if you land in the wrong spot, and do not vector you forwards even a little bit.

[oldradagast]

The new movement code is broken. There's no other way to put it. Tiny obstacles as small as your mech's foot can stop you cold, many slopes are now impassable, resulting in laughable "mech trails" of mechs stumbling along in a line, trying not to get stuck, jump jets now behave insanely, and it's common to suddenly lose huge chunks of speed in an instant because your mech happened to graze a small segment with a steep angle on otherwise flat terrain.

The new movement system makes about as much sense as people being unable to cross a phone book or climb stairs because the angle with respect to the ground is too steep. Mech's have the ability to lift their legs - they are not giant bowling balls, just rolling along the ground. Ugh...

Edited by oldradagast, 03 July 2013 - 02:22 PM.

[Cr4Zy K0wLa]

Victor Morson, on 03 July 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

If your left or right foot lands against the start of one of the sloped walls you will immediately come crashing down to nothing.

Just lovely .... That's really going to cause a few problems running the canyons without jumpjets now.

[Arcturious]

I voted other. You missed a selection in your bias which is every mech benefits from this change.

Heavies and assaults can now actually bottle neck passes in true Gandalf fashion.

Lights can escape using momentum to places heavies and up can't follow.

Mediums are now in a best of all worlds place. Plenty of Trebs, Cicadas, Cents etc are really using the terrain to their advantage to harass those bigger than themselves from slopes and escape down gullies.

This was a win for everyone and games are already showing a huge tactical improvement. If you think a few moves in advance you can really capitalise on the terrain. Know the battlefield, pick your targets and have lines of retreat. It's finally starting to feel like Battletech again.

[Victor Morson]

Arcturious, on 03 July 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

I voted other. You missed a selection in your bias which is every mech benefits from this change.

Heavies and assaults can now actually bottle neck passes in true Gandalf fashion.

Until the good players map monkey / jump past them anyway.

Arcturious, on 03 July 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

Lights can escape using momentum to places heavies and up can't follow.

Lights can also come crashing to a dead stop and eat an alpha to the face.

Arcturious, on 03 July 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

Mediums are now in a best of all worlds place. Plenty of Trebs, Cicadas, Cents etc are really using the terrain to their advantage to harass those bigger than themselves from slopes and escape down gullies.

Mediums can't even clear a snow drift.

Arcturious, on 03 July 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

This was a win for everyone and games are already showing a huge tactical improvement. If you think a few moves in advance you can really capitalise on the terrain. Know the battlefield, pick your targets and have lines of retreat. It's finally starting to feel like Battletech again.

Did you play the patch, or read the notes?

Hell, I saw the notes before it got released.. and I had hope. Oh, how gullible I am. I had assumed momentum would be something to happen over several seconds and not instantly.

Edited by Victor Morson, 03 July 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[Divine Decoy]

Not a fan of the new mechanics OR the change to PPC sounds.... PGI the old PPC sound was RIGHT ON, not it sounds.... eeh too much like an AC or gause shot (which AC is fine, but Gause is not).

To suddenly CHANGE what hills can be climbed like that is ROUGH and does take time to learn, but with the increase of noobs online, it isn't helping battles. Alpine battle went FULL 25 minutes since NO ONE could climb/flank fast enough in their heavies/assults on the OPEN PPC ally of a game. I had like 400 dmg from just firing my 2 ppcs alone since everyone slows down and then ends up backing up cuz "NO can't go there fast enough". I'd rather have the ability to knock down light and medium mechs then for EVERYONE to stumble over small rocks counted as slopes like landmines on every battlefield....

[Jonathan Paine]

My friends who pilot spiders seem to be ok with the patch. My friends who pilot Atlai/Stalkers, not as much. The whole movement system will need a lot of adjustment, but this is an improvement over the cartoon'ish system we had.

[Victor Morson]

Jonathan Paine, on 03 July 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

My friends who pilot spiders seem to be ok with the patch. My friends who pilot Atlai/Stalkers, not as much. The whole movement system will need a lot of adjustment, but this is an improvement over the cartoon'ish system we had.

You need more friends that drive mediums and heavies.

Also in your eyes.. Cartoon = Bipedal machines walking up hills. SIMULATION = Bipedal machines rocking back and forth scooting up hills.

So hardcore.

Edited by Victor Morson, 03 July 2013 - 03:10 PM.

[jakucha]

Aside from the little bugs like getting stuck on rocks or whatever, it's a case of "get used to it". I'm not having a bad time in my medium or heavy.

Thundercles, on 03 July 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

Having played a decent number of matches, about the only real effect I've seen is the elimination of flanking routes and forcing people out into the open for PPC boats. I like the INTENT behind the movement system, but it could stand some tweaking.

So what you really mean is you have a problem with the current alpha spam PPC damage meta (like any reasonable person does) and not the incline update.

Edited by jakucha, 03 July 2013 - 03:13 PM.

[Thundercles]

Kyle Wright, on 03 July 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

Wrong its a 60% grade... not 60 degrees. 60%grade is roughly 35degree angle.

You are correct. The source I was using erroneously stated 60 degrees... further examination revealed that it is, in fact, 60% grade. Thanks for the catch!

jakucha, on 03 July 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

Aside from the little bugs like getting stuck on rocks or whatever, it's a case of "get used to it". I'm not having a bad time in my medium or heavy.

So what you really mean is you have a problem with the current alpha spam PPC damage meta (like any reasonable person does) and not the incline update.

In a sense. Movement restrictions such as these aren't varied enough do do anything more than funnel the rats (lights and mediums) into the easy reach of the cats (heavies and assaults). I actually don't have as much a problem with PPCs or boating in general - its boating combined with all-assault, all-the-time that's the issue. This just makes it harder for the little guys to avoid fire in its current incarnation, while leaving the big guys more or less unhurt.

EDIT: I guess the best way to sum up my opinion is this: find some way to either encourage or enforce more varied chassis class selection, and insta-gibbing will go down a lot.

Edited by Thundercles, 03 July 2013 - 04:22 PM.

[Arcturious]

Victor Morson, on 03 July 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Until the good players map monkey / jump past them anyway.

Lights can also come crashing to a dead stop and eat an alpha to the face.

Mediums can't even clear a snow drift.

Did you play the patch, or read the notes?.

So the very advantage I list for lights and good players you see as a drawback? That's obviously part of the balance.

Your argument that they can come to a dead stop is erroneous. This is not intended, Devs have already said that and they are gathering data to fix it. This was clearly something that was going to be fixed and not an actual issue.

I haven't had any issues in mediums at all. I found them to be quite agile actually.

According to my stats, I have played over 40 matches since the patch came in. I streamed online to twitch for four hours or so last night. I was specifically testing the new mechanics for the benefit of new players and current players while I was doing so to show the changes. I deliberately mapped out routes for people, showed in all weight classes how to get around the maps, discussed potential problems and tried to get places in Atlas, Stalkers etc. I went to most of the popular routes in each map to review the differences.

even played at least 2-3 games in each trial mech to demonstrate how they play, tactics to use etc.

I then equipped jump jets to a mech of each class - Jenner, Blackjack, QuickDraw and Highlander to test mobility and the JJ changes for people to see.

So yes, I can categorically state that I have played since the patch and done some actual testing of the changes under as many conditions I could create in the time I have available to play.

My conclusion so far has been across the board positive. Very few issues, the issues that exist will be resolved as they are obvious bugs and not intended by the system. I'm looking forward to more testing and further tuning of the system. PGI did a great job on the movement code. It even seemed to fix a lot of the rubber banding collisions as a fringe benefit!

Edited by Arcturious, 03 July 2013 - 06:02 PM.