115 replies to this topic

[Revorn]

Well in play most times Mediums, Cents to be specific. At my Elo level, the Big Boys dont always are able to hit the Ligths, so Ligthhunting could be usefull there. But i personaly dont go this Way in my Cent. Because if i want to go Fast in Movement, i often have less Weapons that the Ligth, i want to Hunt.


Well to this new Mapfeatures. The Ligth now can go to Places where i cant follow, or he can go to places faster than me. So the Ligth is now stronger in Movement and so in Combat as well, as he was before. So i think the Impact is to lower the useabillity of Mediums as a Ligthhunter.


Edit: I play at a low ELO, i know this Fact.

Edited by Revorn, 03 July 2013 - 01:15 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

xDeityx, on 03 July 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Maybe he'll listen to you. I've said this several times already but he apparently wants us to comment on how this change will impact 12v12 conquest gameplay in 3 months or something.

I'm not sure what his relationship with PGI is but if he is at all representative of PGI's level of awareness of their own game I am not surprised in the least by his fixation on "Light Hunting."

Light hunting is an ineffective use of tonnage, and always will be. Why would you waste 50-60 precious tons to take out a 30 ton mech? In order to make that tonnage-effective, you would have to kill 2 lights a game. That will never happen, nor should it. Lights would know one when it was coming, see it, and run back to the team. Eventually this "light hunter" would be forced to fight in a straight up engagement, and he would be worthless because he has a big engine and anti-light weaponry.

Base defense mediums can have a role. Mediums that can handle a light 1v1 (which most can now anyway) can cheat back to defend against a light cap push and delay until the bigs can get back. That is probably the best use of mediums right now. The interesting thing about it is that a base defense medium can completely circumvent the need for a light at all. If you have a fast medium, you have no need for lights if you are okay with playing a conservative, defense rather than attack style.

Teams that run mediums and lights in heavy (600+) ton drops are being suboptimal with their weights. Use a light if you want to cut tonnage so you can have more assaults, or use a fast, base-defense medium if you want a little added security against the enemy capping. No need for a medium and a light to be on the same field in a heavy drop. And affirmative action for lights and meds via tonnage restrictions doesn't help either. We would just stack up on assaults, and then use the lightest lights to save tonnage for them, and the lights would just pray that the useful mechs (assaults) won the game.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 03 July 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

The spread in the light classes might create a situation where Raven's no longer keep their King of the Lights status... and this aspect of Light Hunting might be very relevant. When Streaks get balanced out, the Raven will suffer a reduction in of it's primary advantages over the other ECM Mechs. This will be coupled with the Raven 's heaver movement class and might lead tot he proliferation of more non-ravens in the competitive queue.

[Victor Morson]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 03 July 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

to all the whinos - that's PGI doing nothing again...no wait, they are addressing the issue!

excellent to see this thread crop up so promptly

Yes, massive thanks to putting this thread up. I'm sorry more people aren't being helpful with your bug report request, it's just that we feel the underlying systems are the problem - NOT the maps. I'd be pulling my hair out if I was the map designer and this suddenly got put on my maps retroactively, since it'd require less fixing and more entirely rebuilding every surface.

But thank you for gathering our community input, OP. You're definitely among the best moderators around here and I do really appreciate it!

[Revorn]

PEEFsmash, on 03 July 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

We would just stack up on assaults, and then use the lightest lights to save tonnage for them, and the lights would just pray that the useful mechs (assaults) won the game.

Jepp, thats the Problem, Mediums are not realy needed, It seems to be better, to take a good Ligth into the Team and have more Tonnage for Assaults. Sad thing but True.

Atm, i only found a usefull Role with my Cent as an Longrange Support Harrasser and Scoutsupport. 2AC2 for getting the Range neccesary to Surive high Alphas, and 107 Kp/h to perform a FleetFeet if a Ligth comes at my Direction.

[PEEFsmash]

Prosperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

The spread in the light classes might create a situation where Raven's no longer keep their King of the Lights status... and this aspect of Light Hunting might be very relevant. When Streaks get balanced out, the Raven will suffer a reduction in of it's primary advantages over the other ECM Mechs. This will be coupled with the Raven 's heaver movement class and might lead tot he proliferation of more non-ravens in the competitive queue.

Jenners are equally as common as Ravens already in competitive ques. Cicadas are played sometimes, and I have seen the occasional Spider due to their current lack of damage registration. Light hunting is still a waste of a mech, and in competitive play, always will be as long as assaults and heavies can perfectly well defend themselves against lights with ease. If lights could actually regularly defeat isolated top-tier assaults 1v1, then light hunting might become a thing. They could defend the assaults. Right now, the only assaults that a light can consistently defeat at the highest level of play is a pure PPC boat with no jumpjets within PPC minimum range.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 03 July 2013 - 01:31 PM.

[Deathlike]

Prosperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

The spread in the light classes might create a situation where Raven's no longer keep their King of the Lights status... and this aspect of Light Hunting might be very relevant. When Streaks get balanced out, the Raven will suffer a reduction in of it's primary advantages over the other ECM Mechs. This will be coupled with the Raven 's heaver movement class and might lead tot he proliferation of more non-ravens in the competitive queue.

That's not really a solution.

Right now Jenners with the arse-backwards BAP anti-ECM properties are dominating this. So, that coupled with the awful decision to not keep Ravens on par with Jenners (especially due to Jenners having JJs) has made me sell my 3L for a Jenner-D.

If the Jenner had be switched with the Ravens on the movement "quirk", it would make sense (Ravens have no JJs, and the RVN-4X is not actually indicative of a good light mech with JJs). You're making a more egregious mistake by thinking that.

"Light hunting" is done with other lights... which speaks to more of an issue with Light vs Light play (streaks being at the forefront) and speed in general with medium mechs.

Edited by Deathlike, 03 July 2013 - 01:27 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Prosperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

The spread in the light classes might create a situation where Raven's no longer keep their King of the Lights status...

ECM isn't really that big a deal anymore. It's nice, but we can live without it. In fact, I'd dare say since the BAP change, the Jenner has been the King of Lights. So if they are still operating under the assumption that it is.. it's not. ECM's hard binary "it works absolutely or does not work absolutely" mechanic combined with the number of counters have made it nothing more than a luxury item. Jenners, with jump jets, are what controls the light wars.

Prosperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

and this aspect of Light Hunting might be very relevant.

Light hunting is already relevant! It's just that we do so with other light 'mechs, often reenforced by medium 'mechs that are slightly under their speed.

Light hunting teams in conquest are like: Jenner, Jenner, Raven in wave 1, Centurion 9A, Trebuchet 7M in wave 2. That way harder to kill 'mechs can catch up to the light team while they are fighting and force the enemy lights to run, or engage with heavier armor. Literally nobody does this in assaults. Literally nobody will do this in assaults.

Except, again, the unfortunate newbies that are still chasing the first moving thing they see, which are just bad, bad players.

Edited by Victor Morson, 03 July 2013 - 01:32 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Namais, on 03 July 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Seconded, but I've got to ask PP, why are you putting your head above the parapet here for free when there are people getting paid to do it? Volunteer moderation is one thing. Performing a function for a commercial entity gratis is beyond the call imo.

I get the honest impression from not just this thread, but past threads and rulings, that Prosperity Park cares about this game as much as we do. He's one of the best admins around here.

[Jack Lowe]

Light hunting with medium mechs as u put it is always going to be hindered by one item, relative speed. Now don't get me wrong I love the new speed over terrain mechanic, although it needs some work, it is a sound idea. It does indeed give greater utility and enhance the role of lighter units. As has been mentioned perhaps 1 or two more categories to further space out mediums from heavies and heavies from assaults would help. Also loosening the restrictions on accessible terrain to all mechs. We don't want the battlefield to become cut off creating the corridor type warfare mentioned. That last problem is more map specific than others.

I do run a fast medium mech 100kph in fact. I also do "hunt" lights on occasion usual its more to run one away from our cap. although some of the slower ones running ppc's I do hunt. In that vein the movement changes don't really change much as speed trumps these changes. Having JJ's is now more useful however. I don't run mechs with JJ's but observation points to a increase in usefulness. One thing a fast medium is going to be good for is as a scout lance leader. Riding in the slot of the formation he'll bring the extra firepower to shift the tide of a fight while the lights keep the enemy engaged. Provided the light elements don't go and bite off to big a chunk it will work out pretty well. It will also add some extra meat to flanking and rear attacks.

In the end what these changes really did was make all lighter units more useful. As they can, if their careful, cross terrain other mechs cannot allowing them to access hot spots and provide extra support quickly. I am certain many pilots of heavier mechs are rather upset with this limitation. I'm also certain it is partially because taking 8 assaults to a match is no longer as good an idea as it once was. They will adjust, bringing more mobile assets will slowly creep there way into the meta. I've already been winning more than my share of matches because of this very difference. It also helps I've been drawing the canyon an inordinately high percentage of the time. This is one map where, as was originally billed, mobility would be key.

I can't speak much on changes to the game I have no knowledge of going forward. There are many fine ideas on the forums and which ones if any might make it into the game I simply don't know. Speculating on all the possibilities and their effects would require many pages. If more information is given I will gladly discuss it.

I hope this helps and is relevant enough to the OP's desired topic to be useful.

Edited by Jack Lowe, 03 July 2013 - 01:49 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Revorn, on 03 July 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

Jepp, thats the Problem, Mediums are not realy needed, It seems to be better, to take a good Ligth into the Team and have more Tonnage for Assaults. Sad thing but True.

Atm, i only found a usefull Role with my Cent as an Longrange Support Harrasser and Scoutsupport. 2AC2 for getting the Range neccesary to Surive high Alphas, and 107 Kp/h to perform a FleetFeet if a Ligth comes at my Direction.

Mediums are currently only useful in weight restricted environments.

If you have 2 heavies, 2 assault, 3 mediums and 1 light on a field (just as an example), the mediums become the most vital factor in the whole mix, because they're fast enough to dictate the engagement. They're arguably the bigger factor than the assaults or heavies, which are likely to support the mediums.. no the other way around.

In all of the tonnage leagues things like the Centurion are well loved and for good reason. In open games they are likely to face 8 camping Highlanders and render it terrible.

That said, again, I highly endorse only a minor speed loss going up rough terrain for mediums. I think if they could get a Stalker to fight on a hill, where the Stalker is hitting a huge speed hit to it's already slow speeds, it would be a huge help for mediums as they are right now.

Not to repeat myself, but dead stopping 'mechs is not resulting in this.

Jack Lowe, on 03 July 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Light hunting with medium mechs as u put it is always going to be hindered by one item, relative speed.

You are absolutely right. If you'll notice in my conquest example (when actual light hunting is needed), the mediums pretty much "trail behind" the light force, which acts like a "tackler" - ties the enemy lights down by matching their speed, so when the mediums start showing up the enemy light force either has to flee (not able to deal with the armor coming their way) or stay and fight (and then get into a battle with slower, more heavily armored 'mechs.)

On their own, mediums will never make good light killers. Well, "front line" mediums. Things like the Cicada, Treb 3C and Cent 9D are pretty much lights in medium bodies with the right setup. In particular the Cicada.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

Prosperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

So, it'd be nice if folks could use the F9 key and get the grid location of the small pebbles and little decorative things that stop you... that shouldn't stop you. Then visit that thread and post the information requested in the bullet points. Thanks!

Pffh. Oh it would be nice but it ain't gonna happen.

As if I'm going to stop moving in my light mech in the middle of a raging battle to stare at the ground looking for pebbles. Fact is, with the game in its current state, if I stop for 1 second in a light and I'll be one shotted instantly by the PPC snipers.

It's pretty difficult to beta test these sorts of things in a competitive game with one shot kills everywhere and no respawns. And no way to choose maps to return there right away to re-inspect a location.

How about IGP uses some of the millions they make from Founders Part 1 and 2 and overpriced Hero mech part 15 to finally hire some bug testers?

[Victor Morson]

Rat of the Legion Vega, on 03 July 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

As if I'm going to stop moving in my light mech in the middle of a raging battle to stare at the ground looking for pebbles. Fact is, with the game in its current state, if I stop for 1 second in a light and I'll be one shotted instantly by the PPC snipers.

It's not that hard ; just press print screen every time you are stuck.

That said, I'm not doing it because I think the underlying system is entirely terrible and broken, and fixing the maps is the most backwards course correction we could take right now. These aren't "minority spots."

EDIT: Op, is there any chance of making this thread Sticky?

Edited by Victor Morson, 03 July 2013 - 02:04 PM.

[Jack Lowe]

I agree with u Victor although were using different terms to describe how mediums get used it is essentially as you said. I do see some increase in the use of mediums as fast reaction units to plug holes or add support during a push. The new mechanics mean that larger units might not arrive in time, or at all for that matter. Which is why I don't hate the new mechanic, I find it to be a good idea. I do find it to be very rough and in dire need of some of the refinements you and others have mentioned for it to achieve it's intended goal.

[Asakara]

The game feels a lot slower to me than it did in closed beta.

What is displayed now as 150 kph feels like 110-120 kph or so back in CB. In addition it seems to me that you get diminishing returns for higher speed instead of a linear progression. I suspect there have been multiple stealth nerfs to speed over the last 6 months or so.

Through testing with unit mates we have found that a light mech running 142 kph is just as fast as one running 150 kph and the "slower" mech has zero issues staying right next to the "faster" one over long distances.

These days it seems to me that a medium / heavy mech doing 90-100 kph has almost no issue chasing down a light mech doing 140-150 kph, even though there should be a major speed difference.

[PEEFsmash]

Asakara, on 03 July 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Through testing with unit mates we have found that a light mech running 142 kph is just as fast as one running 150 kph and the "slower" mech has zero issues staying right next to the "faster" one over long distances.

Is this recorded? I'd love to see this. Are you saying they both go equal speed?

Edited by PEEFsmash, 03 July 2013 - 02:39 PM.

[Tipsy McTartan]

I reckon the Centurion and Trebuchet should be bumped into the small category. If not, this will become an issue when weight limitations and 12v12 come around and there are more lights on the field. Yes, I'm a Trebuchet pilot and we'll always be at a max speed disadvantage to the ankle bitters but so far I'm usually able to get off two or three decent shots while chasing them before they escape. We don't need another nerf by being in a significantly worse angle category for slow down on terrain.

Also the same applies to the Quickdraw which is an ideal hunter of fast mediums, how can a mech that can go 100kph+ with tweak be in the same category as a Stalker? And as a lighter, faster and more manouverable mech than a Cataphract be a category behind?

[Victor Morson]

PEEFsmash, on 03 July 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

Is this recorded? I'd love to see this. Are you saying they both go equal speed?

Seconding this. Vids or it didn't happen.

Rebel Chavez, on 03 July 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

I reckon the Centurion and Trebuchet should be bumped into the small category. If not, this will become an issue when weight limitations and 12v12 come around and there are more lights on the field. Yes, I'm a Trebuchet pilot and we'll always be at a max speed disadvantage to the ankle bitters but so far I'm usually able to get off two or three decent shots while chasing them before they escape. We don't need another nerf by being in a significantly worse angle category for slow down on terrain.

Also the same applies to the Quickdraw which is an ideal hunter of fast mediums, how can a mech that can go 100kph+ with tweak be in the same category as a Stalker? And as a lighter, faster and more manouverable mech than a Cataphract be a category behind?

Rebel Chavez, on 03 July 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

I reckon the Centurion and Trebuchet should be bumped into the small category. If not, this will become an issue when weight limitations and 12v12 come around and there are more lights on the field. Yes, I'm a Trebuchet pilot and we'll always be at a max speed disadvantage to the ankle bitters but so far I'm usually able to get off two or three decent shots while chasing them before they escape. We don't need another nerf by being in a significantly worse angle category for slow down on terrain.

Also the same applies to the Quickdraw which is an ideal hunter of fast mediums, how can a mech that can go 100kph+ with tweak be in the same category as a Stalker? And as a lighter, faster and more manouverable mech than a Cataphract be a category behind?

This actually brings me back to a point I've wanted to mention but haven't really touched on in all my threads.

Balancing by size is really really terrible. It's entirely subjective and amplifies the fact people are ALREADY mad that some mediums are as big as assaults, and assaults smaller than mediums.

It should be raw tonnage, period. Maybe add a quirk for special cases like "Dragon - +10% better maneuverability on rough terrain."

But size over weight is really, really awful and doubly as confusing.

EDIT: Is the Treb really classified in the same bracket as the Stalker? That'd explain why my 130+ kph Treb C can't clear a freaking waist high hill.

[Asakara]

PEEFsmash, on 03 July 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

Is this recorded? I'd love to see this. Are you saying they both go equal speed?

Sadly, we do not have a recording at this time. The speed is not exactly equal but extremely close, despite what the instruments say.

Try it out with one of your DV8 mates.. Have one in a Jenner with a 280 and the other with a 300. The "slow" Jenner should have no issues keeping up with the "fast" one even though there is supposedly @ a 2.2 meter per second speed difference.

[Victor Morson]

Asakara, on 03 July 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

Try it out with one of your DV8 mates.. Have one in a Jenner with a 280 and the other with a 300. The "slow" Jenner should have no issues keeping up with the "fast" one even though there is supposedly @ a 2.2 meter per second speed difference.

That would only cause a 132 meter difference after 60 seconds of straight, unhampered, flat land running (no turns).