115 replies to this topic

[Asakara]

Victor Morson, on 03 July 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

That would only cause a 132 meter difference after 60 seconds of straight, unhampered, flat land running (no turns).

Yet we found after long distances that we would only be about 20-30m apart instead of over 130m.

[Tipsy McTartan]

Victor Morson, on 03 July 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

EDIT: Is the Treb really classified in the same bracket as the Stalker? That'd explain why my 130+ kph Treb C can't clear a freaking waist high hill.

Sorry, no I was talking about the Quickdraw comparison with the Stalker at that time, the Treb is in the slightly better bracket. Check the list on page one about 2/3 down the page for the complete list.

[Victor Morson]

By the way, here is an illustration about the single most frustrating aspect of this movement system, based around a regular stick figure dude on some stairs. I did this in like 30 seconds in MS Paint, so it's not exactly my grandest demonstration. But I think it works.


This is what pretty much all of Canyon network feels like, too.

Honestly I almost took the time to animate this just so I could show him going along at a slowed, but normal pace then abruptly coming to a halt because he can't figure out how to lift his freaking leg up.

Edited by Victor Morson, 03 July 2013 - 03:19 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

wait a sec... reading comprehension error on my part... nm...

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 July 2013 - 03:25 PM.

[scJazz]

Overall the new movement code has had minimal impact on me. I've been running only Quickdraws during this time and yes I have JJ. There are spots in Canyon... well heck LOTS of spots and Frozen River City that need work. The most frustrating thing is that having hit an impassible slope I can't JJ over it without backing up getting momentum and then jumping. This part totally sucks! So much so that I've just been bapping the JJs near constantly as I approach nearly any terrain. JJs definitely need some Horizontal as well as Vertical boosting.

As for the light hunt... dunno... probably my ELO bracket but they have been exploding rather nicely after they faceplant on a building. Very nice of them to hold still for so long.

EDIT: Actually, I was trying to be nice but... every single map needs work. River City includes street curbs that can block a Quickdraw. Adding this movement code in now and having speed set to ZERO is quite possibly ranking on Top 100 Gaming Design F***Ups of all time.

Edited by scJazz, 03 July 2013 - 04:10 PM.

[Victor Morson]

... it's at this point I realize I'm not even sure what's going on anymore. There seems to be a huge disconnect here.

What was the intended purpose of this movement change? Was it to help lights & mediums (the speed thing would be fine then?) Was it to somehow stop.. light hunting? Is it to restrict more of the map, rendering the fighting into corridors?

I thought it was to help lights & mediums, but given they can't climb most things either.. I'm not sure what we're doing here anymore. It feels like everything that is happening for the better is happening on accident, but so is everything happening for the worse. The current meta imbalance is going on six months now. Things are changing, but I've got no idea why or the reason behind them.. and I'm not sure the reasons behind them are lining up with reality.

I'm just sitting here looking at our problems, and I'm wondering what solution was actually intended with this change? Why did it get priority?

[Eboli]

In my opinion Light hunting falls into the realms of lights hunting lights and maybe a Cicada thrown in as the only other non-light mech.

Medium to Assault mechs should be concentrating on targets other than lights unless they have nothing else to target. Heavier mechs should be using their fire power to take out mechs with likewise heavy hitting power. If they are wasting their shots on lights while there are bigger targets, then the light player is doing their job effectively is reducing the enemies fire power being concentrated on their team mates.

The best tactic to reduce a light players ability to damage heavier mechs is to have a light mech attack them. A light mech player will not be attacking heavier mechs if they are being attacked by a light. A good light mech player should realise that the biggest threat to them is an enemy light mech and while the dog fight (or defensive play) occurs those lights will not be a threat the larger mechs.

While light mechs are engaged the heavier mechs can use their firepower to concentrate on bigger threats.

The role of a light mech is not just about capping or responding to capping . It is about hunting light mechs and distracting heavier mechs from focusing their fire on your heavier team mates. A Team that can concentrate their fire power on opposite targets while their enemies have their backs exposed or weapon recharging because they are responding to enemy lights has a much better chance of winning.

As a light player if I can get a couple of enemy heavier mechs play "chase the squirrel" with me then I am doing my job right knowing that such fire power has been removed from play against my friendly heavy mechs.

It is all about numbers in the end...

In regards for heavier mechs in killing lights - if that is your goal than I suggest that a team get themselves positioned on hills and slopes and use the slow down speed to their advantage. Lights really need to be going 140km+ to assist them in reduced chances of being hit. Below 140km they are much easier to hit.

The recent contour changes are a double-edged sword. You just have to work out the best situations to take advantage of it or reduce its disadvantages.

Cheers!
Eboli

[Deathlike]

You know what, there should be a "rock" consumable that drops a "deuce" at the mech's current location. This rock would be good enough to stop JJ-incapable mechs when you place enough of them (consumable can be used throughout the match, with a 15 second delay, but once used, will disappear after the match is over).

This would be a perfect idea for PGI with the current movement code.

[Kanatta Jing]

When piloting a medium mech, I have up till this time, devoted my self to escorting assaults around the field.

But My Quickdraw sure finds it'self chasing a lot of light mechs off of cap points.

[Helsbane]

these 'pebbles of steel' stop ANY mech cold, not just lights. I keep finding places that are minor terrain features that stop any of my chassis cold, simply because they have a steep angle on them. Granted, it's only 3 ft tall, but I can't step over them. If I had this issue at home, my cat would be dead....

I was told in another thread to map out the locations of these 'pebbles', but I find them ALL OVER THE DAMN PLACE. Cars, handrails, boulders, pipes...... Hell, I was stopped on Tourmaline BY A SHADOW LINE. Why? No idea. Fired my JJs in an attempt to clear it, but because I had no forward momentum, I stayed stuck. In attempting to work my way around it, a 6 PPC stalker cored me.

Working as intended....

[jeffsw6]

Victor Morson, on 03 July 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

I get the honest impression from not just this thread, but past threads and rulings, that Prosperity Park cares about this game as much as we do. He's one of the best admins around here.

Prosperity Park is definitely one of the more engaging moderators. I just thought I'd state, before bashing the dumb movement system a bit, that I appreciate PP's efforts.

Prosperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

I don't foresee teams of PPC Stalkers wining many fast-paced asymetrical conquest maps in the future... so why are people obsessed with "Hunting Lights" with Stalkers? How is a PPC-Stalker supposed to follow a Light Mech, or prevent a capture point across the map from being captured?

A Stalker can't chase a light mech whether hill-climbing was nerfed or not. The point is, a Stalker really doesn't need to chase anything.

Jasen, on 03 July 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Oh... NOW PGI wants our input. I say they should ask the silent majority to fix their damn bugs. Good luck with launch.

There is a difference between "input" and "buggy map positions."

Victor Morson, on 03 July 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

The problem isn't pebbles. The problem is massively abrupt speed falloffs that happen on every slant. Fixing each and every one of these is flat out stupid because even getting one of your feet too close to an incline will dead stop you.

The movement system is utter trash

QFT
It is trash, and it is self-evident that yet another major game-play patch was not play-tested AT ALL.

If there was a public test server we would have identified this problem the first HOUR it was on that test server, and then players could still enjoy the normal server if they do not want to deal with the bad movement system change + map glitches.

Look, there is a glaring issue besides the bugs that no one is really discussing, too. Guess what you want to do anytime a light mech is circling you now! Look for a wall? Who needs one! Just look for the nearest slightly slanted ground. Of course, lights will figure that out soon, and stop bothering to circle light mechs in brawls at all. They will just use 2 ERPPCs from huge range. Oh, wait ... they all already are ...

GET A CLUE, Prosperity!

If the map guys have to whack-a-mole every freaking pebble and crevice on every map, and do major re-designs to some of them, to make this movement code work right, then maybe THE CODE IS THE PROBLEM, not the freaking maps!

Please communicate THAT to the devs.

[Kanatta Jing]

Guys, are these "pebbles of steel" actually real?

I mean I once had a 70% momentary speed drop when my Cat tripped over a car. But that's kind of expected.

I haven't had a startling panic stop unless I was running into or brushing up against a building face or another mech.

[DYSEQTA]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 03 July 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

I would say that at least Light-Medium mechs should be able to scale up to 60 degree angles (with some speed loss)45-50.

Can you, as a flexible human being, easily walk up a 60 degree incline whilst remaining upright?

Answer this question and there's the answer to your proposal.

[scJazz]

There is one in Forest Colony near the ship... it is knee high to a Spider and stopped my Quickdraw dead in its tracks. While trying to figure out what I was stopped on some LRM70 Stalker lit me up. Game over... only after death could I see what it was... lump of rock about 1 spider in diameter and about knee high on a spider.

jeffsw6, on 03 July 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

Prosperity Park is definitely one of the more engaging moderators. I just thought I'd state, before bashing the dumb movement system a bit, that I appreciate PP's efforts.


A Stalker can't chase a light mech whether hill-climbing was nerfed or not. The point is, a Stalker really doesn't need to chase anything.


There is a difference between "input" and "buggy map positions."


QFT
It is trash, and it is self-evident that yet another major game-play patch was not play-tested AT ALL.

If there was a public test server we would have identified this problem the first HOUR it was on that test server, and then players could still enjoy the normal server if they do not want to deal with the bad movement system change + map glitches.

Look, there is a glaring issue besides the bugs that no one is really discussing, too. Guess what you want to do anytime a light mech is circling you now! Look for a wall? Who needs one! Just look for the nearest slightly slanted ground. Of course, lights will figure that out soon, and stop bothering to circle light mechs in brawls at all. They will just use 2 ERPPCs from huge range. Oh, wait ... they all already are ...

GET A CLUE, Prosperity!

If the map guys have to whack-a-mole every freaking pebble and crevice on every map, and do major re-designs to some of them, to make this movement code work right, then maybe THE CODE IS THE PROBLEM, not the freaking maps!

Please communicate THAT to the devs.

QUOTING FOR EFFECT!

EARTH CALLING DEVS COME IN DEVS...
THIS IS DEVS OVER...
EARTH HERE MESSAGE FROM PLAYERS FOR DEVS...
GO AHEAD OVER...
REMOVE HEAD FROM ***, TEST YOUR OWN ****, AND A GENERAL WTF OVER!

[El Bandito]

Kudos for making a thread about it and share it with the community. Here is a bump.

As people pointed out, fixing the code is easier.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 July 2013 - 05:59 PM.

[Aym]

Prosperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

That's kind of how they planned it. Here's a snippit from the base thread:


Would bumping all the Medium Mechs to the small bracket be a good thing? I think the Tiny bracket and the Small brackets should be reserved for the Lights and the 40-tonners, because they do need some kind of differentiation between the smaller and bigger Light Mechs (15-tons is a HUGE difference in weight if you're talking about 20 vs 35 tons). if you dump the medium Mechs into the small bracket, then the heavier Light Mechs are no longer "more mobile" from the Movement Code perspective than Medium Mechs...

PP one of the biggest problems we've had responding with balance suggestions in this game is the piece-meal architecture in which we've viewed them. The new movement code is in, and it is having an impact on the balance of smaller, quicker mechs, and that's good. But w/out tonnage based match-making it's impossible to answer how much this code needs to balance things.
This is like ballistics/ppc's and HSR. Most AC's and the PPC's needed buffs, and they got them, then they got buffed again with HSR and we haven't rolled back any of the previous buffs, so we're left in this limbo state of unbalanced gameplay. ECM and LRMS and TAG and Artemis all did the same thing.
Requests to balance piece-by-piece instead of the whole system is one of the main reasons that I am not sure PGI really gets the idea behind balancing a game like this. You can't balance these systems in a vacuum, and I think they get that, but they talk about buffing certain weapons w/out really looking at the whole picture (IMO). I believe you've heard me say they should have an identified yardstick against which to measure weapon effectiveness, which would relate to game pace, mech survivability, and so on. I believe the Large Laser (as currently implemented) is a good yardstick to use for pacing.

[ego1607]

Lights should be scouts, capturers and harassers, able to bring down heavyer mechs in a pack. Mediums should be about bringing a considerable firepower to a needed location fast, while massaults should be a compromise on speed to achieve massive firepower, and heavys somewhere in between. Slope climbing abilities should be adjusted accordingly. Making a hunchback and centurion react to hills same way as a cataphract does and making a catapult react as a stalker just makes no sense.

As for trying to iron out problems with current movement system by ironing out all the points on the maps where mechs could get stuck, I see that as a horrible brute force solution that will never work in 100% cases.
I think not so radical code change would allow you to simulate inertia and make mechs decelerate at a speed proportional to the steepness of the hill untill they reach zero.
What I think most of the users would like to see is an atlas rushing up to a hill, slowly starting to loose momentum as it starts climbing and eventually reaching a point where it's engine can push no further, not a mechanic where a hill suddenly acts as a brick wall stoping it almost in place. That way, a small obsticle would make a mech just loose some of it's speed and not cause such buggy behaviour.

[WolvesX]

My light hunting tools are 4 PPCs, 6 PPCs, 1 Gauss + 3 or 4 PPCs.

Its unaffected by the last patch.

Thank you for asking.

[WolvesX]

jeffsw6, on 03 July 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

Prosperity Park is definitely one of the more engaging moderators. I just thought I'd state, before bashing the dumb movement system a bit, that I appreciate PP's efforts.


A Stalker can't chase a light mech whether hill-climbing was nerfed or not. The point is, a Stalker really doesn't need to chase anything.


There is a difference between "input" and "buggy map positions."


QFT
It is trash, and it is self-evident that yet another major game-play patch was not play-tested AT ALL.

If there was a public test server we would have identified this problem the first HOUR it was on that test server, and then players could still enjoy the normal server if they do not want to deal with the bad movement system change + map glitches.

Look, there is a glaring issue besides the bugs that no one is really discussing, too. Guess what you want to do anytime a light mech is circling you now! Look for a wall? Who needs one! Just look for the nearest slightly slanted ground. Of course, lights will figure that out soon, and stop bothering to circle light mechs in brawls at all. They will just use 2 ERPPCs from huge range. Oh, wait ... they all already are ...

GET A CLUE, Prosperity!

If the map guys have to whack-a-mole every freaking pebble and crevice on every map, and do major re-designs to some of them, to make this movement code work right, then maybe THE CODE IS THE PROBLEM, not the freaking maps!

Please communicate THAT to the devs.

and QTF

[Seddrik]

As a persistent light pilot, I'll say this. I've seen such areas before this movement change. I've longed for a solution to them... since moving at 152.7 kph and suddenly stopping cold is... not what you'd expect from the game physics and can easly result in death due to a glitch not lack of skill or bad judgment.

This movement patch has made the situation exponentially worse.

Evidently speed carries you over most of these areas normally, but not now. So, I'd suggest removing this movement shackle. Revert back to the previous settings, THEN report the areas we get stuck in. As it is... If I started reporting every place I got stuck now... I'd never get to play.

Edited by Seddrik, 03 July 2013 - 06:23 PM.