161 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

Fate 6, on 04 July 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

If you're trying to get an actual DISCUSSION out of Villz just give up. He is incapable of having a 2-way discussion. All he knows how to do is name-call and try to insult peoples intelligence. He's never going to give a real response to a counter-argument of any kind.

I think these are some of the best discussion had around here. Sure they are not very productive game play wise but do in fact give brilliant insights into the many, and varied views about how the players play the game and perceive how others do as well.

If someone wants to get their panties into a bunch when they feel other disagree, then fine. What we all have in common, is this "free" time to spend our much cherished time with each other.

In the end, after all this, I have to wonder how does one expect other to learn from them, and their wisdom, when they simply will not learn that insulting other peoples intelligence is a poor method of information transfer.

It seems to be a somewhat symbiotic thing really. Maybe we learn more about the game and they can learn more about etiquette and personal respect. Everyone wins. LOL

Edited by MaddMaxx, 04 July 2013 - 09:41 AM.

[Villz]

MaddMaxx, on 04 July 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

I think these are some of the best discussion had around here. Sure they are not very productive game play wise but do in fact give brilliant insights into the many, and varied views about how the players play the game and perceive how others do as well.

If someone wants to get their panties into a bunch when they feel other disagree, then fine. What we all have in common, is this "free" time to spend our much cherished time with each other.

In the end, after all this, I have to wonder how does one expect other to learn from them, and their wisdom, when they simply will not learn that insulting other peoples intelligence is a poor method of information transfer.

It seems to be a somewhat symbiotic thing really. Maybe we learn more about the game and they can learn more about etiquette and personal respect. Everyone wins. LOL

atleast their was somewhat of a positive undertone in that.

[Whompity]

Quote

And @Nicholas well even amongst the "top" players opinions do vary. Personally i believe that hitting @ what u aim @ is an important function to raise the skill ceiling. I think the real problem right now is that long range mechs LRM boats PPC Boats etc are able to deal much to much damage to the enemy team before distance can be closed to even engage in a brawl. And also that the brawling weapons are underpowered in comparison to the brawling weapons. Heat effenciency and pinpoint damage dictates this at that point. Personally i'd like to see a slight ppc projectile speed nerf a sight heat rise and a 5 second cooldown on all large weapons perhaps even 6 (would have to play to know). AC-20's are secretly the best weapon in the game right now. Wait until the 1st assault that can use 3 or maybe 2 and a couple of other pinpoint backups (erppc's ppc's etc). We haven't even touched on double Ultra AC-20's. In battletech lore the AC's arent a single projectile its actually a burst of many projectiles emptied magazine (round) at a time. If they made AC's like a very short duration (1 - 2 second) laser like stream of projectiles it would allow for people to twist damage a bit more and add some interaction for the player to try and mitigate some of the damage to other area's of their mech. I don't think boating is the issue its meerly a symptom of weapon imbalances.By increasing the firing rate of PPC's gauss and AC-20's it would slow damage dealt down a bit and allow (correct weapon balance permitting) brawls to occur. Whilst not completly phasing out ranged tactics all together.

TLDR slower damage being dealt allowing brawls to occur. Adding ways for players to mitigate damage to further increase this effect (rolling damage) and balancing the pinpoint without adding complexity via rediculous boating changes.

But again that's just my own "current" understanding at this time

You really should have started with this post.

[Fate 6]

MaddMaxx, on 04 July 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

I think these are some of the best discussion had around here. Sure they are not very productive game play wise but do in fact give brilliant insights into the many, and varied views about how the players play the game and perceive how others do as well.

If someone wants to get their panties into a bunch when they feel other disagree, then fine. What we all have in common, is this "free" time to spend our much cherished time with each other.

In the end, after all this, I have to wonder how does one expect other to learn from them, and their wisdom, when they simply will not learn that insulting other peoples intelligence is a poor method of information transfer.

It seems to be a somewhat symbiotic thing really. Maybe we learn more about the game and they can learn more about etiquette and personal respect. Everyone wins. LOL

I have yet to actually learn about the game from Villz, though. He just tells people they're bad or dumb. Even when I played with him and did consistently well in my CN9-A back when SRMs were balanced he insisted that mediums were useless.

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

atleast their was somewhat of a positive undertone in that.

And for all Villz's attempts at insulting peoples intelligence, he still doesn't know which "there" to use.

Stay classy

[Villz]

Fate 6, on 04 July 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

I have yet to actually learn about the game from Villz, though. He just tells people they're bad or dumb. Even when I played with him and did consistently well in my CN9-A back when SRMs were balanced he insisted that mediums were useless.


And for all Villz's attempts at insulting peoples intelligence, he still doesn't know which "there" to use.

Stay classy

on a scae of 1 to mad how mad are you right now

Olivia Maybach, on 04 July 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

You really should have started with this post.

the OP was directed @ PGI not at the greater community. Interacting with the majority is something i gave up on long ago. As you can see when a post is made you have 21 year old children start calling out incorrect grammar on an internet forum.

3:49 am here yeh son!

What that is, is simply point scoring whilst dodging the content.

Edited by Villz, 04 July 2013 - 09:51 AM.

[Writhenn]

Fate 6, on 04 July 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

I have yet to actually learn about the game from Villz, though. He just tells people they're bad or dumb. Even when I played with him and did consistently well in my CN9-A back when SRMs were balanced he insisted that mediums were useless.


And for all Villz's attempts at insulting peoples intelligence, he still doesn't know which "there" to use.

Stay classy

Don't care, no one else who plays this game does. Thread was about the weapon balance and current gameplay mechanics. You look like as much of a tool as you claim him to be

[Whompity]

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

the OP was directed @ PGI not at the greater community. Interacting with the majority is something i gave up on long ago. As you can see when a post is made you have 21 year old children start calling out incorrect grammar on an internet forum.

Like I said then, you really should have taken this to PGI directly instead of posting an "open" letter in an open forum.

[Villz]

Writhen, on 04 July 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

Don't care, no one else who plays this game does. Thread was about the weapon balance and current gameplay mechanics. You look like as much of a tool as you claim him to be

Check and Mate

[Fate 6]

Writhen, on 04 July 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

Don't care, no one else who plays this game does. Thread was about the weapon balance and current gameplay mechanics. You look like as much of a tool as you claim him to be

If you go back and look at my first reply to the thread you'd see I had every intention of having a real discussion here, but Villz has yet to give a real response to anyone who disagrees with him.

[FactorlanP]

Writhen, on 04 July 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

Don't care, no one else who plays this game does. Thread was about the weapon balance and current gameplay mechanics. You look like as much of a tool as you claim him to be

Not really... If you read the original post, it was nothing more than Villz telling the Developers that if they're interested (I suspect that they are not) there is a group of "competitive" players who are willing to tell PGI what they have done wrong and how they can fix the mess that they have made.

[Fate 6]

Olivia Maybach, on 04 July 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

Like I said then, you really should have taken this to PGI directly instead of posting an "open" letter in an open forum.

^
If you post a OPEN letter, then don't get all up-tight when people actually disagree with you. If you don't want to have a discussion, don't come to the forum. It's pretty simple.

So like I said, game balance is not about what the 3 people who think they're the best say. It's about what the rest of us feel is wrong with the game. That's why we have a game balance forum for everyone to post in. We post our issues here and discuss them. PGI just has to listen.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

If you read back closely you should be able to see a distinct difference between the correspondance of the On topic posts and the clear off topic attempts to derail the thread.

And @Nicholas well even amongst the "top" players opinions do vary. Personally i believe that hitting @ what u aim @ is an important function to raise the skill ceiling. I think the real problem right now is that long range mechs LRM boats PPC Boats etc are able to deal much to much damage to the enemy team before distance can be closed to even engage in a brawl. And also that the brawling weapons are underpowered in comparison to the brawling weapons. Heat effenciency and pinpoint damage dictates this at that point. Personally i'd like to see a slight ppc projectile speed nerf a sight heat rise and a 5 second cooldown on all large weapons perhaps even 6 (would have to play to know). AC-20's are secretly the best weapon in the game right now. Wait until the 1st assault that can use 3 or maybe 2 and a couple of other pinpoint backups (erppc's ppc's etc). We haven't even touched on double Ultra AC-20's. In battletech lore the AC's arent a single projectile its actually a burst of many projectiles emptied magazine (round) at a time. If they made AC's like a very short duration (1 - 2 second) laser like stream of projectiles it would allow for people to twist damage a bit more and add some interaction for the player to try and mitigate some of the damage to other area's of their mech. I don't think boating is the issue its meerly a symptom of weapon imbalances.By increasing the firing rate of PPC's gauss and AC-20's it would slow damage dealt down a bit and allow (correct weapon balance permitting) brawls to occur. Whilst not completly phasing out ranged tactics all together.

TLDR slower damage being dealt allowing brawls to occur. Adding ways for players to mitigate damage to further increase this effect (rolling damage) and balancing the pinpoint without adding complexity via rediculous boating changes.

But again that's just my own "current" understanding at this time

So would you be ok with having things effect convergence?

For instance if heat is high, convergence is slower. If you are moving convergence is slower. If your target is moving convergence is slower.

Things like that? This would still make aiming a very critical skill (even more so really), and would also give brawlers more of a chance to get into range.

Just trying to spur discussion on things I suppose.

[Villz]

FactorlanP, on 04 July 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

Not really... If you read the original post, it was nothing more than Villz telling the Developers that if they're interested (I suspect that they are not) there is a group of "competitive" players who are willing to tell PGI what they have done wrong and how they can fix the mess that they have made.

If by "group of competitive players" u mean all the units that play in league's and community organised tournaments than yes you would be correct in your pessimistic interpretation.

[TLBFestus]

Kunae, on 04 July 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

Pft. Snark much?

Competitive players use whatever the current meta is. To do anything less would be consciously gimping yourself.

They know that 6 PPC-stalker, 2 raven-3L matches aren't fun, but you do what you need to do. They've had the most experience with that meta, and thus have a better grasp on it than those, who solo pug for 45 minutes every 3 days.

Edit: Man, can tell I still need to wake up. Had to correct a bunch of grammar crap.

This is precisely why I have concerns over giving the "competitive" groups more influence, no disrespect intended but;

- you are a minority. Every competitive group could erase this game from their drives and the community and developers would not notice, and the financial "hit" on PGI would be negligible, minor at worst.

- By definition, these groups are NOT representative of the user base. They have their own standards, positions, and game-play goals that in many ways are counter to the casual, or even the experienced, users that are the majority that play this game.

- Being "competitive" doesn't make these groups smarter. More knowledgeable yes, but smarter or less prone to creating cheez, no.

Matter of fact I suspect that many of you who are competitive and post in the forums about balancing the game, eliminating boating, cheez builds, etc., run exactly those types of builds when playing competitively. I would have thought many of you would run more mixed or varied mechs, but in the times I've been in an 8 man, the teams all use load-outs that they have pointed out abuse/break the game.

Why? To win. As some have said above to do anything less is to "conciously gimp themselves". Many of you are "lore" crazy, or Table Top evangelicals who shout down or denigrate people who voice opinions counter to yours. Not all of you, but some.

I think that they have these forums precisely to get feedback from the ENTIRE SPECTRUM of the user base, and to give the competitive minority undue input would be a mistake.

[Fate 6]

TLBFestus, on 04 July 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

This is precisely why I have concerns over giving the "competitive" groups more influence, no disrespect intended but;

- you are a minority. Every competitive group could erase this game from their drives and the community and developers would not notice, and the financial "hit" on PGI would be negligible, minor at worst.

- By definition, these groups are NOT representative of the user base. They have their own standards, positions, and game-play goals that in many ways are counter to the casual, or even the experienced, users that are the majority that play this game.

- Being "competitive" doesn't make these groups smarter. More knowledgeable yes, but smarter or less prone to creating cheez, no.

Matter of fact I suspect that many of you who are competitive and post in the forums about balancing the game, eliminating boating, cheez builds, etc., run exactly those types of builds when playing competitively. I would have thought many of you would run more mixed or varied mechs, but in the times I've been in an 8 man, the teams all use load-outs that they have pointed out abuse/break the game.

Why? To win. As some have said above to do anything less is to "conciously gimp themselves". Many of you are "lore" crazy, or Table Top evangelicals who shout down or denigrate people who voice opinions counter to yours. Not all of you, but some.

I think that they have these forums precisely to get feedback from the ENTIRE SPECTRUM of the user base, and to give the competitive minority undue input would be a mistake.

Pretty much this 100%

[Villz]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 04 July 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

So would you be ok with having things effect convergence?

For instance if heat is high, convergence is slower. If you are moving convergence is slower. If your target is moving convergence is slower.

Things like that? This would still make aiming a very critical skill (even more so really), and would also give brawlers more of a chance to get into range.

Just trying to spur discussion on things I suppose.

I think large scale changes would always have to be played through. How things play out when when you actually figure them out. Its literally impossible to know. However i think encouraging people not to move is always a bad idea. A lot of the games depth is in the positioning and movement of teams and dictating where engagements occur. I think what your trying to do is the same thing as i am except yours is done via randomization ala convergence changes. and mine was based on weapon balance and functionality. I don't think randomization is fun tbh. although it can be exciting in OMG that actually hit.... I don't think its as rewarding as winning by outplaying someone.

[REDACTED]

TLBFestus, on 04 July 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

This is precisely why I have concerns over giving the "competitive" groups more influence, no disrespect intended but;

- you are a minority. Every competitive group could erase this game from their drives and the community and developers would not notice, and the financial "hit" on PGI would be negligible, minor at worst.

- By definition, these groups are NOT representative of the user base. They have their own standards, positions, and game-play goals that in many ways are counter to the casual, or even the experienced, users that are the majority that play this game.

- Being "competitive" doesn't make these groups smarter. More knowledgeable yes, but smarter or less prone to creating cheez, no.

Matter of fact I suspect that many of you who are competitive and post in the forums about balancing the game, eliminating boating, cheez builds, etc., run exactly those types of builds when playing competitively. I would have thought many of you would run more mixed or varied mechs, but in the times I've been in an 8 man, the teams all use load-outs that they have pointed out abuse/break the game.

Why? To win. As some have said above to do anything less is to "conciously gimp themselves". Many of you are "lore" crazy, or Table Top evangelicals who shout down or denigrate people who voice opinions counter to yours. Not all of you, but some.

I think that they have these forums precisely to get feedback from the ENTIRE SPECTRUM of the user base, and to give the competitive minority undue input would be a mistake.

I feel you haven't read the whole thread. As i specifically stated before that we do not represent the entire comunity however we represent a part of it and are not elected representatives and TBH nor would i desire to be lol.

If your going to post in a thread can you try and read it first?

Edited by Prosperity Park, 04 July 2013 - 11:11 AM.
removed personally-directed statement

[Fate 6]

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Also Fate6 posts are cancer and i won't be replying or reading childish blatent attempts to derail the thread.

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

childish blatent attempts to derail the thread.

The irony.

Please respond to TLBFestus then.

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

As i specifically stated before that we do not represent the entire comunity however we represent a part of it and are not elected representatives and TBH nor would i desire to be lol.

If you aren't trying to represent the community, what is the point of this thread? We already have a forum for feedback, and the OP suggests that you are trying to circumvent the forum all together and talk to PGI directly, which means you are trying to speak for the community. Try to clarify OP if you actually do not want to represent all of what we say on the Game Balance forum.

Edited by Fate 6, 04 July 2013 - 10:09 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

I think large scale changes would always have to be played through. How things play out when when you actually figure them out. Its literally impossible to know. However i think encouraging people not to move is always a bad idea. A lot of the games depth is in the positioning and movement of teams and dictating where engagements occur. I think what your trying to do is the same thing as i am except yours is done via randomization ala convergence changes. and mine was based on weapon balance and functionality. I don't think randomization is fun tbh. although it can be exciting in OMG that actually hit.... I don't think its as rewarding as winning by outplaying someone.

Also Fate6 posts are cancer and i won't be replying or reading childish blatent attempts to derail the thread.

It's not random at all. I see this response a lot, and I don't quite understand it.

Random is when I shoot, the game decides where I hit.

What I am talking about is...right now, we aim, we shoot, all our weapons hit the exact same spot.

What I want is...when I put my reticle over someone it starts like this >______<, not full convergence. And depending on conditions it will move towards >< which is pinpoint convergence.

If you keep your heat low, are fairly stationary and catch your target stationary you can pick your shot quickly and easily.

If you are running hot, on the move and your target is on the move, you have to keep your reticle on him longer to get that perfect shot.

That means more skill involved.

And if your reticle is like >______< you still know where your shots will go. They just won't hit the exact same spot.

Once again, no random involved.

And this would fit more with how mech combat was described in various books.

I think DocBach and HomelessBill have other versions and this is just very basic.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 04 July 2013 - 10:09 AM.

[Fate 6]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 04 July 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

logic

I agree. I'd never actually thought of changing the cursor like that (since PGI doesn't like changing things they already worked hard on), but that's a very good way to fix the issue. It just needs to not hurt mechs that fire on the run (mediums, lights), and I'm not sure how to do that.

[Rippthrough]

FactorlanP, on 04 July 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

Not really... If you read the original post, it was nothing more than Villz telling the Developers that if they're interested (I suspect that they are not) there is a group of "competitive" players who are willing to show PGI what they have done wrong and suggest how they can fix the mess that they have made.

BIG difference.

Edited by Rippthrough, 04 July 2013 - 10:13 AM.