102 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

400XL Max Assaults: Replacing all others (Again?)

I'm noticing a trend with the next two big assaults: The Victor and the Battlemaster. Both can take massive engines, along with heavy firepower. 5-6 Large Lasers with a 400XL is just one option available.

For those that don't remember what closed beta was like, before engine restrictions came out, the 380-400XL Awesome dominated the battlefield when armed with close range weapons. Rushing walls of armor and firepower. There was literally no reason to bother with mediums or heavies here because mediums and heavies were just as slow as the assault.

Everyone agreed that without other massive restrictions, this was a very bad thing. The only thing worse than a bunch of slow assaults (like the Highlander and Stalker) is very fast ones that can carry a wide variety of firepower.

Until now, this hasn't been a problem; only the 9M could get those speeds and it's hard points, hit box and gun layout aren't very good. None of those will be issues with the Victor or Battlemaster.

Right now the only reason we're not seeing it with the Victor I think is for one it is a MC-only hero, and for two, it can't be Speed Tweaked into the high 80s without the other models first being released, gimping it's ability to do this.

The solution? That's where this gets tricky. Without new kinds of quirks or hard point layouts that are outright inferior on faster assaults, I don't know if this is fixable. I really dig the idea of fast-moving assaults being a viable option, but seriously, take another look at the Battlemaster and tell me 5 Cockpit-high torso Large Lasers (6 if you prefer) with a 380-400XL isn't going to be a problem - or, if it's still viable, 4 ER PPCs - resulting in a Stalker that can haul into the high 80s.

Something needs to be changed though or I fear that every single Assault is about to get thrown right into the trash bin that can't pull these kinds of speeds. In the very, very near future. I really hope something is done before this happens so it doesn't have to join the thread in my sig as another flashback issue.

In short we've already been through this once and it was terrible then - I do not see how it will fail to be terrible again.

TL/DR: 380-400XL engine assaults absolutely broke the battlefield already once before, until only the 9M and PB remained - both inferior 'mechs for other hardpoint/layout reasons. Now we're getting two excellent hardpoint-designed 'mechs with incredibly good layouts and can operate at 400XL speed.... why bother with anything else?

Edited by Victor Morson, 07 July 2013 - 01:07 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Valid points. The biggest issue - and I haven't seen many either yet too - is that its own size weight against it.

But with ridge-humping a trend that just can't die, how much of that is really a disadvantage? With pinpoint accurate shots at 0 range, close quarters even isn't an issue with them.
Time will tell, but I think your onto something here.

[Solis Obscuri]

Are Pretty Babys rolling every match? They can already run an 400XL.

And fast assaults never were an issue, really - they weren't fast enough to get a lagshield, with standard engines they had less firepower than some heavies, and with XL engines they had less survivability than some mediums.

[General Taskeen]

In my opinion, I'd rather 'illegal' Solaris-like builds remain in a Solaris mode.

But, anyways I think the Charger should be the mech to use the 400, because it did.

[Victor Morson]

Look upon this monster, and you will know horror:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7a98ef85957e151

Now, dropping the engine to the the 385 range and putting on some more DHS will solve your issues if you think that's way too hot (it probably is)..



The Orange Square is likely where your view is about be, the red square is where those guns are. Talk about a ridging machine and an amazing gun layout for something that will be able to move almost 40% faster than a typical Highlander.

[MustrumRidcully]

Ah, the good old days when Awesome's still had a use?

I don't think we can or should address this really with engine restrictions. Mediums must have a useful role on the battlefield. And if it's via drop weight and you have to bring some mediums. I don't think that would be enough. I don't want playing a light or medium feel like the consolation prize.

Maybe we need more modules of the Seismic Sensor calibre, and give lights and mediums more of them (or outright limit those modules to them. No Seismic Sensor or Multi-Targeting module for your Assault mech.)

[Victor Morson]

Solis Obscuri, on 07 July 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Are Pretty Babys rolling every match? They can already run an 400XL.

Did you read the whole OP? I specifically address the Pretty Baby and Awesome 9M as being massively inferior due to their wide easy to hit hitboxes and massively low-slung guns. The 9M is the only one usable of the two, really (the PB suuuucks) but because of it's drawbacks, it simply is very bad despite moving heavy speeds.

Solis Obscuri, on 07 July 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

And fast assaults never were an issue, really - they weren't fast enough to get a lagshield, with standard engines they had less firepower than some heavies, and with XL engines they had less survivability than some mediums.

Did you play during closed beta when we had the unrestricted assaults or no?

[FupDup]

Stalker don't need no XL 400 to ridgehump you to death.

[Victor Morson]

MustrumRidcully, on 07 July 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

Ah, the good old days when Awesome's still had a use?

I love the Awesome; I think it's a shame about what a joke it is here.

But I am afraid that every assault that cannot keep up will go in the trash, just as it did before, the moment we get Speed Tweak'ed 80-85 tonners that can mount these huge engines. Nobody bothered with the slower assaults during this period... or anything lighter than an assault because really, trading 10kph for that much armor and firepower is almost universally worth it.

People were cheering when we put the engine restrictions in, including the fact that the variants that could keep those speeds up had massive drawbacks (almost too massive). Now we're going to have variants that would be stellar even if they went slowly going that speed and...

... yeah. I swear right now if this is not changed I will be quoting this very post by November and adding it to my sig's "Repeats of history." In particular if the PPC meta is brought into line, making this better served as a laser boat.

Edited by Victor Morson, 07 July 2013 - 12:37 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Victor Morson, on 07 July 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

Did you play during closed beta when we had the unrestricted assaults or no?

Yes.

[DarkJaguar]

I played during Open Beta, and while fast-assaults were annoying, they were pretty easy to counter. A balanced force of Fast lights, medium speed mediums and heavies, and slow assaults could take them, because so much of their weight was dedicated to engine size. The biggest issue was on small maps, where you could not locate the enemy force before they were on your cap point.

That being said, I don't know if it's going to be an issue or not. I would personally prefer a fixed chassis system for mechs (You can't change the IS, Armor, or Engine) But that has it's own problems. I think the mechlab may be broken beyond repair at this point in time.

Edited by DarkJaguar, 07 July 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Solis Obscuri, on 07 July 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Yes.

So you ran into team after team of 8 fast Awesomes (the models that can sport SRMs, when SRMs were good, notably for those just joining us - not the 9M/PB) and thought they had no major advantage? Despite carrying assault levels of firepower at faster-than-heavies speeds?

Because I remember two kinds of games: Awesome vs Awesome, and Awesome vs Curbstomped Victims.

Pretty much:
Assault Grade Firepower - Check
Good speeds even for a heavy - Check
Far more armor than a heavy - Check

Then SRMs bit the dust and the 'mechs could run them were restricted painfully and it stopped happening; the 9M became a niche, because it's got a ton of problems to offset it's speed.

Now that we're nearing the release of assaults that can mount the very best weapons in the game in a number of configurations with that speed, I forsee the death of not only all other assaults, but mediums and heavies as well - because they offer no advantage over a fast 80-85 tonner.

It has happened before. I am convinced it will happen again.

[Victor Morson]

DarkJaguar, on 07 July 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

I played during Open Beta, and while fast-assaults were annoying, they were pretty easy to counter. A balanced force of Fast lights, medium speed mediums and heavies, and slow assaults could take them, because so much of their weight was dedicated to engine size. The biggest issue was on small maps, where you could not locate the enemy force before they were on your cap point.

No you couldn't. Mediums and heavies merely could keep up with the fast Awesomes that were most popular at the time sporting SRMs and Pulse Lasers (when both were good). Mediums moving at 100 were just over 10% faster at a loss of half the firepower and armor. Heavies were in a similar boat. They simply did not have the speed advantage - or sometimes even ran slower - than the assaults they were meant to balance out. Not to mention that the really heavy assaults were borderline useless.

Once these packs got onto someone, they were done. Period. The drop-off in medium/heavy pilots was insane. Why drive a 100 KPH Medium when the other guy carries twice your guns & armor and pulls 88?

DarkJaguar, on 07 July 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

That being said, I don't know if it's going to be an issue or not. I would personally prefer a fixed chassis system for mechs (You can't change the IS, Armor, or Engine) But that has it's own problems. I think the mechlab may be broken beyond repair at this point in time.

I think that's a bad idea, but they do need to put drawbacks in on these things or they will simply replace everything else even more than assaults already do. I can't even make a case for a fast medium when the assault is just as fast.

EDIT: Not sure if you read the forums much back then but everyone was upset that they "killed mediums and heavies." It came up every single day, several times a day. It was the "All PPC, all the time" of the day. People were VERY happy when it went away.

Bringing it back without fixing what people hated about it is mind blowing.

Edited by Victor Morson, 07 July 2013 - 12:53 PM.

[Pht]

No good can come of allowing people to change mech engines in a non-persistent-MMORPG video game format. It is simply not possible to implement enough balancing factors vs this ability in other VG formats.

Implement the sprinting capabilities outlined in the advanced rules books, along with TSM and masc, and 'mechs will have a performance envelope that's big enough to keep people happy.

Edited by Pht, 07 July 2013 - 12:55 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Pht, on 07 July 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

No good can come of allowing people to change mech engines in a non-persistent-MMORPG video game format. It is simply not possible to implement enough balancing factors vs this ability in other VG formats.

I think the key is rather "allowing a blanket engine rule" rather than placing restrictions on a 'mech-by-'mech basis. 'mechs with top tier hard points and layouts should simply not also get top grade engines. It's a nasty combination.

Pht, on 07 July 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

Implement the sprinting capabilities outlined in the advanced rules books, along with TSM and masc, and 'mechs will have a performance envelope that's big enough to keep people happy.

Every time you quote table top rules verbatim, a developer hits the mute button. Plus we're getting MASC.

[sokitumi]

Yeah i have to agree. AWM's aren't a problem bc they are pretty much the easiest kill in the game. Looking at the battle master there wtf... just wtf... at least pgi wont have to nerf stalkers anymore, right?

[Victor Morson]

sokitumi, on 07 July 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Yeah i have to agree. AWM's aren't a problem bc they are pretty much the easiest kill in the game. Looking at the battle master there wtf... just wtf... at least pgi wont have to nerf stalkers anymore, right?

Yep. The only reason the Awesome was a terror in the unrestricted environment before honestly, something I should have brought up in the OP, was that Stalkers didn't exist yet. Likely the "Unrestricted Stalker Hordes" is in fact what we'd be talking about now in the OP if it had.

Awesomes are poorly designed 'mechs. They made them short and fat and gorilla like with a massively wide chest and guns way down by it's hips. Running a fast one is pretty much the same as running a slightly better armored Cataphract without jump jets or the good gun placement, and thus it's not very popular.

The Battlemaster appears to have none of these problems.

If something isn't done I am calling it right now that this October we will be seeing unrestricted games being all Battlemasters with a couple Victors jump sniping and little else.

[LegoPirate]

XL engines are a huge liability in the current sniping meta. its the exact reason why the 6 ppc stalker is a joke build. the only assaults that can use xls without getting instacored are hlanders and soon victors, since they can jumpsnipe.

a BLR with an xl 400 and max armor only has 30 tons of payload space. a stalker with a std 300 has 40 tons. a highlander using an xl 325 has almost 50 tons.

for reference, the BLR with an xl 400 has less payload space then a CTF using an XL340. and the only reason the phract gets used is jump jets and its relatively small profile. if the BLR is any bigger then a VTR, which it will be, the whole point will be moot.

hell, downgrading the xl400 to a 350 saves you 11.5 tons for only a 10 kph loss. VTRs and BLRs with xl350s will be pretty beastly, but going 73 in an assault is hardly gamebreaking.

[Roland]

Quote

the 380-400XL Awesome dominated the battlefield when armed with close range weapons.

I do not recall any point in the entire history of this game where Awesomes "dominated" anything.

Certainly, there were a number of viable builds when jamming huge engines in the awesome... the Fat-Mando comes to mind.

But those builds were not really dominant. You didn't see them more often than other assaults.

Honestly, speed is really the only thing that makes the awesome viable.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Roland, on 07 July 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

I do not recall any point in the entire history of this game where Awesomes "dominated" anything.

Certainly, there were a number of viable builds when jamming huge engines in the awesome... the Fat-Mando comes to mind.

But those builds were not really dominant. You didn't see them more often than other assaults.

Honestly, speed is really the only thing that makes the awesome viable.

This.