102 replies to this topic

[Solis Obscuri]

Victor Morson, on 07 July 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

So you ran into team after team of 8 fast Awesomes (the models that can sport SRMs, when SRMs were good, notably for those just joining us - not the 9M/PB) and thought they had no major advantage? Despite carrying assault levels of firepower at faster-than-heavies speeds?

Because I remember two kinds of games: Awesome vs Awesome, and Awesome vs Curbstomped Victims.

Pretty much:
Assault Grade Firepower - Check
Good speeds even for a heavy - Check
Far more armor than a heavy - Check

Then SRMs bit the dust and the 'mechs could run them were restricted painfully and it stopped happening; the 9M became a niche, because it's got a ton of problems to offset it's speed.

Now that we're nearing the release of assaults that can mount the very best weapons in the game in a number of configurations with that speed, I forsee the death of not only all other assaults, but mediums and heavies as well - because they offer no advantage over a fast 80-85 tonner.

It has happened before. I am convinced it will happen again.

How many SRM boats are you seeing these days?

Have you seen the 'mech movement changes brought in by the latest patch?

[Victor Morson]

Solis Obscuri, on 07 July 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

How many SRM boats are you seeing these days?

You are entirely missing my point. Back then SRMs were good (they might be again soon) and thus Awesome -> SRM was the common meta with the high speed assaults.

If the restrictions were still not in place, you'd have 4 PPC Stalkers that pull mid-80s instead. They're already rampant at slower speeds.

Awesome SRM hordes -> Battlemaster Laser/PPC hordes, the problem is the same.

Solis Obscuri, on 07 July 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Have you seen the 'mech movement changes brought in by the latest patch?

Sure... that gimp mediums just as bad as assaults thanks to "everybody dead stops" as a mechanic. So it absolutely will not impact this. Good pilots can climb up crap by map monkeying now anyway (why I laugh when someone defends the system on "SIMULATION!" grounds)

[sarkun]

LegoPirate, on 07 July 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

VTRs and BLRs with xl350s will be pretty beastly, but going 73 in an assault is hardly gamebreaking.

This. 400 rated engines, even XLs are still VERY heavy.
Also, I have a feeling that the BLR will be even more of a target than the Awesome (hitboxes!) so it will not be as bad as you think.

[Kobold]

The original fast AWSs were good for two reasons:

1) Short range firepower advantage (7 MPL or 4x6 SRMs + 3 ML)

2) No DHS / long range foes of any threat.


The 80 ton mech enabled them to load up on SHS in a way that lighter mechs (like catapults) couldn't do. This is wht the 6x6 A1 wasn't popular until DHS were implemented.

But now we have DHS and functional PPCs, as well as nerfed SRMs. It is no wonder that fast awesomes aren't a threat any more.

[One Medic Army]

Victor Morson, on 07 July 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

So you ran into team after team of 8 fast Awesomes (the models that can sport SRMs, when SRMs were good, notably for those just joining us - not the 9M/PB) and thought they had no major advantage? Despite carrying assault levels of firepower at faster-than-heavies speeds?

Because I remember two kinds of games: Awesome vs Awesome, and Awesome vs Curbstomped Victims.

Pretty much:
Assault Grade Firepower - Check
Good speeds even for a heavy - Check
Far more armor than a heavy - Check

Then SRMs bit the dust and the 'mechs could run them were restricted painfully and it stopped happening; the 9M became a niche, because it's got a ton of problems to offset it's speed.

Now that we're nearing the release of assaults that can mount the very best weapons in the game in a number of configurations with that speed, I forsee the death of not only all other assaults, but mediums and heavies as well - because they offer no advantage over a fast 80-85 tonner.

It has happened before. I am convinced it will happen again.

The only time I personally ever ran into 8 fast awesomes on the enemy team were a couple of times I ran into the Goons doing it.
THe only reason it worked for the goons is they actually coordinated both their builds and their tactics. They could have run Hunchbacks and steamrolled most games.
It was 8man vs PUG usually.

No, fast assaults were never an issue.

Edited by One Medic Army, 07 July 2013 - 02:41 PM.

[XFactor777]

If that's the best build for the battlemaster I will laugh as I switch targets those 6 lg lasers will get 1 volley off before it explodes from being an xl assault without max armor. Fear mongering like this is what gets us in trouble balance wise no matter how fast it can go if it cant bring the weapons, heat sinks and armor to back it up it doesn't matter.

[Deathlike]

I'm ready for our new overlord 400XL Awesomes not named PB or 9M.

It would keep things interesting instead of "Awesomes are unawesome".

Edited by Deathlike, 07 July 2013 - 03:36 PM.

[Splitpin]

If this is a problem, and I'm not convinced it is, the issue and many others would be negated by class/mech/weight balance in ye olde match maker.

[Victor Morson]

Roland, on 07 July 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

I do not recall any point in the entire history of this game where Awesomes "dominated" anything.

Certainly, there were a number of viable builds when jamming huge engines in the awesome... the Fat-Mando comes to mind.

But those builds were not really dominant. You didn't see them more often than other assaults.

Honestly, speed is really the only thing that makes the awesome viable.

Does anyone have video of the 8-Awesome deathblob?

I can't believe people have forgotten about it. It was literally just as bad as the PPC meta we had now, but it only lasted about a week and a half before they stepped in and fixed it. I think that's why people don't remember it being a big deal.

But it was. You'd have 8 Awesomes run up on you, spin around you firing (at the time, very good) SRMs and that'd be it. There was just zero drawbacks to running fast. Keep in mind the reason, again, Awesomes/SRMs were the combo was that was what was good/available at the time.

What I am saying is that if that engine restriction change had never happened, we would effectively be dealing with swarms of 85kph Stalkers right now instead. And when the Battlemaster comes out, I think it is clear what is going to happen.

[Ralgas]

Victor Morson, on 07 July 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

What I am saying is that if that engine restriction change had never happened, we would effectively be dealing with swarms of 85kph Stalkers right now instead. And when the Battlemaster comes out, I think it is clear what is going to happen.

Everyone's going to mount 4-6 Llas/ppc's/gauss in some combo? no matter the engine rating the builds are still going to be the same unless these "weapon balances" of Paul's make a significant difference, it's just going to be the tactic's that alter.

Personally if they run out and brawl it'll still be a refreshing change over the hill hump and snipe we've suffered, and it might mean we see the odd lrm lance out there to counter them as well (which are appearing below the "competitive" brackets already with some success)

Edit: Oh, and i guess we'll test your fears next week when the Victor drops properly hey??

Edited by Ralgas, 07 July 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[Kanatta Jing]

I remember 8 fast Awesomes each with 6 medium pulse lasers charging down the tunnel, butchering every mech in range, ignoring every mech out of range and base capping.

Actually there was one hunchback.

Still there was no way our team could have won.

[LordBraxton]

Kanatta Jing, on 07 July 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

I remember 8 fast Awesomes each with 6 medium pulse lasers charging down the tunnel, butchering every mech in range, ignoring every mech out of range and base capping.

Actually there was one hunchback.

Still there was no way our team could have won.

you can still do this with awesome 9Ms

so why dont we see it more often?

oh right AWS suck

and 400XLs weigh more than what theyre worth

[XX Sulla XX]

I do not believe this is a problem.

[Kanatta Jing]

LordBraxton, on 07 July 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

you can still do this with awesome 9Ms

so why dont we see it more often?

oh right AWS suck

and 400XLs weigh more than what theyre worth

So the counter to this tactic is to say that it sucks? Interesting. Well certainly if people believe you when you say it sucks and therefor don't do it, then this is indeed a highly effective counter.

Or maybe just the fact you can't count on playing on a map with a tunnel?

[Hexenhammer]

XL engines turns mechs into one big center torso.

Edited by Hexenhammer, 07 July 2013 - 06:46 PM.

[KingKalvin]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...echlab#modified how about this bad boy?

Oh boy

[Roadkill]

Victor Morson, on 07 July 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

For those that don't remember what closed beta was like, before engine restrictions came out, the 380-400XL Awesome dominated the battlefield when armed with close range weapons. Rushing walls of armor and firepower. There was literally no reason to bother with mediums or heavies here because mediums and heavies were just as slow as the assault.

SRMs also did 2.5 damage and still had the broken splash mechanic. Streaks always hit CT. Medium Lasers were da bomb, and head hit boxes were massive. PPCs were heat monsters and never used. The game is dramatically different now and I really don't think a "fast" assault is going to be the problem that it was back in closed beta.

[Victor Morson]

Roadkill, on 07 July 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

SRMs also did 2.5 damage and still had the broken splash mechanic. Streaks always hit CT. Medium Lasers were da bomb, and head hit boxes were massive. PPCs were heat monsters and never used. The game is dramatically different now and I really don't think a "fast" assault is going to be the problem that it was back in closed beta.

Time will tell, I suppose, but I am going to bet right now that by November, complaints about this reach the forums in force as every class other than fast assault is rapidly outdated in any game that doesn't involve massive tonnage restrictions, and even those will favor as many fast assaults as possible.

All I'm thinking is "Here we go again.."

[Sephlock]

One Medic Army, on 07 July 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

The only time I personally ever ran into 8 fast awesomes on the enemy team were a couple of times I ran into the Goons doing it.
THe only reason it worked for the goons is they actually coordinated both their builds and their tactics. They could have *AND DID* run Hunchbacks and steamrolled most games.

FTFY

[One Medic Army]

Sephlock, on 07 July 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

FTFY

Never witnessed a hunch goonswarm myself.
Of course, I was usually in a large group with my own merc corp doing silly things like 8man commando drops.