102 replies to this topic

[Liberator]

Solis Obscuri, on 07 July 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Yes.

Me to. There are More important And Serious Issues With This Game Than how Large Engines Certain Chassis Can Hold And Not.

[MustrumRidcully]

Fugu, on 07 July 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

I don't recall Awesomes actually being that awesome ever.
I do however remember the reason why engines were restricted - Fastbacks.

Remember Swaybacks carrying a metric **** ton of meds going as fast as a scout? They didn't even have heat problems back then, you coldn't shake them off and in a Swayback the XL is actually hard to hit - especially at the speeds they we going. 80 km/h were a joke to them.

I do believe the Battlemaster is going to reign supreme for a good while, but not for speed. Ledges and them not having to expose themselves much to get a line of fire is wheres it going to be at.

They didn't carry a metric ton of mediums. They carried a lot of small lasers.

Because due to the borked heat system, with single heat sinks, that's what you had to do - replace your energy weapons with the next-cooler variant.
And you needed that speed with SLs, because the range is pathetic.

[Victor Morson]

PanzerMagier, on 07 July 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

Oh gosh! Assaults running 80kph! Whatever will we do Victor Morson...

*Hgn/Atlas casually swats the XL engined assault mech*

There is literally no downside to what amounts to an 86kph Stalker, and everyone is totally cool with that and sees no problems with it?

I really don't know what to say. When every other Assault is dead and the complaining starts, this is going to the single most depressing thread to quote.

Edited by Victor Morson, 08 July 2013 - 02:13 AM.

[PanzerMagier]

The issue with your post is that you assume the battle master and victor (aside from the PB) will get high engine ratings, suddenly they're going to let go of engine limits for all assaults?
Foolish, bumbling, half witted, assumptions...
You're right about one thing though, this IS the single most depressing thread to quote. Seeing as the OP loves conjuring up these brilliant hairbrained concepts that PGI is intentionally trying to disrupt gameplay balance.
Please stop posting and meet some real people out there, someone needs to tell you that stupid mongering is a bad thing.
I imagine when MASC get's implemented, you'll be first to make a thread about it 3 months before it's released and QQ'ng how the "Fast" assault mechs will abuse it.
~"Oh now this battlemaster is too overpowered! it has 15 more max kph than an atlas! It's dominating the maps and everything, even though it's only released in 15 OCT. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"~

Edited by PanzerMagier, 08 July 2013 - 02:29 AM.

[Victor Morson]

PanzerMagier, on 08 July 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

The issue with your post is that you assume the battle master and victor (aside from the PB) will get high engine ratings, suddenly they're going to let go of engine limits for all assaults?

No, I don't.

PanzerMagier, on 08 July 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

Foolish, bumbling, half witted, assumptions...

Failure to read.

PanzerMagier, on 08 July 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

You're right about one thing though, this IS the single most depressing thread to quote. Seeing as the OP loves conjuring up these brilliant hairbrained concepts that PGI is intentionally trying to disrupt gameplay balance.

No, again, I do not. I say they do not understand systems they are toying with, not that they are doing it intentionally, for one. For two, perhaps you should read the thread in my sig. Indeed, I imagine problems that don't happen, right?

PanzerMagier, on 08 July 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

Please stop posting and meet some real people out there, someone needs to tell you that stupid mongering is a bad thing.

The problem is specifically this:

Why take a Stalker if a BattleMaster does everything it can, plus move like a heavy? Or by the same token, why take anything else other than BattleMasters at all, outside of scouting? They have the speed, firepower and armor (at the same time) to match a current Stalker in the speed of a light heavy, like the Quickdraw. Why would you ever want a Quickdraw if the battlemaster is flat out better in every possible way?

PanzerMagier, on 08 July 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

I imagine when MASC get's implemented, you'll be first to make a thread about it 3 months before it's released and QQ'ng how the "Fast" assault mechs will abuse it.

MASC has trade-offs. It's not the same thing.

I don't know how people are failing to see the obvious - if current Assaults use X weapons at a slow speed, and the two big assaults coming out (Victor can't be tweaked yet) can use the same weapons at light heavy speeds, we have a problem. Which is precisely what is going to happen. The BattleMaster, without weight restrictions, will replace everything from 45-100 tons, only augmented by the Victor for jumping support. If they are the only two that can sport these engines (without the abysmal hitbox and gun layout of the Awesome) we have a problem.

PanzerMagier, on 08 July 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

~"Oh now this battlemaster is too overpowered! it has 15 more max kph than an atlas! It's dominating the maps and everything, even though it's only released in 15 OCT. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"~

Yes, because I clearly never succeeded at foreseeing any problems in this game before.

[xenoglyph]

Victor Morson, on 08 July 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

The BattleMaster, without weight restrictions, will replace everything from 45-100 tons, only augmented by the Victor for jumping support

Melodramatic much? I know you're passionate about your big stompy robots Victor, and every once in a while I agree with you, but there are times when you're too passionate. This is one of those times.

[Victor Morson]

From before the Stalker was even added to the game:

Quote

The concern isn't that you would take the Stalker and add PPCs to it's impressive armament, but rather, that you would take all the guns off the Stalker and effectively turn it into a 5 ton heavier Awesome, with similar specs and the added bonus that if you so decided, you could turn it into a missile boat or any combination thereof - while the Awesome is stuck simply less hard points.

There'd be no reason to purchase an Awesome if this is the case, because the Stalker can do everything it can - and more, depending on how you modify it.

--

Again the issue really isn't just Stalker vs Awesome. I like the Awesome, but I'm not here to defend it; rather the point that once some more 'mechs have been added to the game, they will cancel each other out in a lot of ways or render one of them simply inferior.

What people said then

Quote

You have missed 1 point Stalker has 20 heat sinks and the Awesome has 28 heat sinks.

-

Though in short, your worrying too much about something that isn't a problem and never was, and instead should get yourself acquainted with more BT lore.

-

Firing 4 PPC's in a Stalker would fire the mech.

So here we are again. On the cusp of outdating a whole bunch of 'mechs simply by creating one that does everything they can do, but can do it faster and therefor better. In fact, this will not just out date 'mechs of the same class like this example, it's even worse this time, because why would you ever want a slow Orion or Cataphract when you could have the same maneuverability and way more armor and firepower as well?

You wouldn't. 400 engine max Assaults - when they have decent weapon and hitbox layouts - simply are the unit that can do everything, and that's a huge problem.

[Devil Fox]

Fast SRM Awesome's were bad because they were a heavily armoured splatcat... they hammered hard with huge SRM damage and splash. Try the same today the meta has changed, we now have mechs that can mount the weaponry to rip armour clean off mechs and lay them open.

The Victor will give a large strike ability at the sacrifice of speed and mobility, they will hurt but if not supported are pretty vulnerable. The Battlemaster will still meet a wall of Firepower vs mobility vs heat... that doesn't factor in meta game changes and features yet to launch that will affect them and their gameplay.

[R Razor]

I've not yet built a cheese mech but I did buy Phoenix, maybe I'll do up a Battlemaster as advertised and **** people off like they do me with their Stalkers and AC-40 Jags. lol

I really like the idea of restricting modules to certain mech-types / weight classes. It would give them a valid purpose that would be sorely missed on the battlefield by the Heavies and Assaults if it wasn't present.............especially if the other team had it.

[Victor Morson]

xenoglyph, on 08 July 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

Melodramatic much? I know you're passionate about your big stompy robots Victor, and every once in a while I agree with you, but there are times when you're too passionate. This is one of those times.

That's not Melodrama. Assuming the current meta remains the same for these examples:

Battlemaster vs Quickdraw - For a very tiny mobility hit, the Battlemaster beats it on damage, armor, and sustainable firepower.
Winner: Battlemaster


Battlemaster vs Stalker - Able to fit the exact same torso-only energy configurations of the Stalker, including even better gun positioning, the Battlemaster can move almost 30% faster while sporting a ballistic option as well.
Winner: Battlemaster

Victor vs Cataphract - The Victor can sport the 732 Gauss + 3 PPCs and still operate at the same speed and jump capability as a typical 3D. Plus it has more armor and an even more durable hitbox.
Winnner: Victor

Battlemaster vs Hunchback - You're kidding, right? The Battlemaster can carry nearly as many energy weapons as a swayback and a ballistic and top out at a speed just a few kp/h slower. The Victor can do the same thing..
Winner: Battlemaster

.... it's honestly hard finding a few niche 'mechs it wouldn't technically outdate. But people go "Oh, the high alpha assaults will just stomp them!" - except these high speed assaults ARE high alpha assaults. DHS only cost a ton and huge engines = lots of heatsinks stored in them, resulting in a 'mech that actually runs cooler than it's slower counterpart.. instead of sacrificing as much as you'd think.

You can chose to not believe me and claim I'm being delusional or whatever else you want. It won't be the first time. I've been dealing with this kind of sentiment since before closed beta came out, and I've yet to find a single one of my threads from back then that has not, in fact, come to pass. In fact I welcome you to find any cautionary threads I've thrown up in the past that turned out to be bunk. I'd like to read them too, but again, I haven't been able to find one.

We could seriously play this game all day, but that what it comes down to.

EDIT: Also remember speed is more than a "lag shield." Being able to dictate combat ranges quickly is a huge part of it. It's the difference between seeing an assault coming in, versus suddenly being blobbed with them.

Edited by Victor Morson, 08 July 2013 - 03:01 AM.

[Elder Thorn]

AWS with big engine and 4x SRM-6 was awesome, btu not as dominant as PPC stalkers were. (WERE!).
The thing is, with speed the awesome was a great cavalry mech while it didn't have the survivability to be a frontliner like the atlas used to be. When they limited the engines, awesomes nearyl vanished from the game. Today you see one or two fromt ime to time as massive missile boats - that's the only thing the awesome is really good for right now IMO.
So yes, it's kind of a deja vu to SRM AWS, but on the other hand we still have the catapult, that can carry 6x SRM and you don't see that one very often for a good reason.
For thelaser variants: a pure laser battlemaster will have the same problem as the laser awesome: HEAT, MASSIVE HEAT. Just watch your back and you will be fine.

[Victor Morson]

Elder Thorn, on 08 July 2013 - 03:01 AM, said:

So yes, it's kind of a deja vu to SRM AWS

Same problem, different meta weapon. Though SRMs getting fixed soon might even make that part come back.

[627]

I remember those days but it was far from op. Without DHS you could only boat 7 ML efficiently, MPL were way too hot and a shutdown awesome was a dead awesome (that didn't change). 7ML was viable, but not more and thos 88kph wasn't fast enough to maneuver that barn door to cover.

And I don't remember many of those builds. what i do remember are the fastbacks, those were nasty, you couldn't loose them in a catapult. But fast awesomes? Fastsomes? You never heard a saying like "fastsomes" because there weren't enough to make such word. That should be prove enough for you that they weren't OP.

[Victor Morson]

627, on 08 July 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

You never heard a saying like "fastsomes" because there weren't enough to make such word. That should be prove enough for you that they weren't OP.

The rise and fall of the fast assault was roughly one and a half weeks, from the time people caught onto it, to the time the engine restrictions were put in place, largely due to how good they were.

It didn't have enough time to land in people's memories, but it was none the less real.

Do you think we would be better off in MW:O with 30% faster alpha Stalkers? Because that's what we're getting in a BattleMaster skin.

Edited by Victor Morson, 08 July 2013 - 03:20 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

we'll see how bad it is when it gets here, if its bad, but I'm all in favour of a balance that reduces static play, where ppc sniping and lrm bombing are the 'flavour' of this game.

[Elder Thorn]

another thing just came to my mind: Bring back RnR and make it expensive to repair high rated XL engines - i mean really expensive - problem solved simulation people happy?

[El Bandito]

Victor Morson, on 08 July 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

The rise and fall of the fast assault was roughly one and a half weeks, from the time people caught onto it, to the time the engine restrictions were put in place, largely due to how good they were. It didn't have enough time to land in people's memories, but it was none the less real. Do you think we would be better off in MW:O with 30% faster alpha Stalkers? Because that's what we're getting in a BattleMaster skin.

Hold on. If PGI made engine restrictions only 1.5 week after the Fastsome thing, then what are you worried about? At most we will see 10 days if them running around and then PGI will reimplement the engine restriction if it will become rediculous. I am more concerned about the static Snipe meta that is going on for FOUR FRIGGING MONTHS.

[Corvus Antaka]

Roland, on 07 July 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

I do not recall any point in the entire history of this game where Awesomes "dominated" anything.

Certainly, there were a number of viable builds when jamming huge engines in the awesome... the Fat-Mando comes to mind.

But those builds were not really dominant. You didn't see them more often than other assaults.

Honestly, speed is really the only thing that makes the awesome viable.

QFT.

[sokitumi]

Elder Thorn, on 08 July 2013 - 03:01 AM, said:

AWS with big engine and 4x SRM-6 was awesome, btu not as dominant as PPC stalkers were. (WERE!).
The thing is, with speed the awesome was a great cavalry mech while it didn't have the survivability to be a frontliner like the atlas used to be. When they limited the engines, awesomes nearyl vanished from the game. Today you see one or two fromt ime to time as massive missile boats - that's the only thing the awesome is really good for right now IMO.
So yes, it's kind of a deja vu to SRM AWS, but on the other hand we still have the catapult, that can carry 6x SRM and you don't see that one very often for a good reason.
For thelaser variants: a pure laser battlemaster will have the same problem as the laser awesome: HEAT, MASSIVE HEAT. Just watch your back and you will be fine.

Yeah I've been leveling up my aws's for the last couple days just out of boredom. While a 4xSRM6 + some laser still punches hard, it usually has to be damn near a ninja to even get in range. However, still pretty ez to lead games with the 4xLRM10+XX 7 tons of lasers,or 5LL versions. Yeah they're boats but that's the game we're playing these days. Had some luck linebacking with a 2erPPC+4SSRMS as well, but again that's a mech best hidden back for squishing ambitious lights.

[Bilbo]

Victor Morson, on 07 July 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

So you ran into team after team of 8 fast Awesomes (the models that can sport SRMs, when SRMs were good, notably for those just joining us - not the 9M/PB) and thought they had no major advantage? Despite carrying assault levels of firepower at faster-than-heavies speeds?

Because I remember two kinds of games: Awesome vs Awesome, and Awesome vs Curbstomped Victims.

Pretty much:
Assault Grade Firepower - Check
Good speeds even for a heavy - Check
Far more armor than a heavy - Check

Then SRMs bit the dust and the 'mechs could run them were restricted painfully and it stopped happening; the 9M became a niche, because it's got a ton of problems to offset it's speed.

Now that we're nearing the release of assaults that can mount the very best weapons in the game in a number of configurations with that speed, I forsee the death of not only all other assaults, but mediums and heavies as well - because they offer no advantage over a fast 80-85 tonner.

It has happened before. I am convinced it will happen again.

I remember shooting them in the side torso and giggling like a schoolgirl as they went down in a heap. They were never the problem you are trying to make them out to be. They were effective but not overly effective.

Victor Morson, on 08 July 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

The rise and fall of the fast assault was roughly one and a half weeks, from the time people caught onto it, to the time the engine restrictions were put in place, largely due to how good they were.

It didn't have enough time to land in people's memories, but it was none the less real.

Do you think we would be better off in MW:O with 30% faster alpha Stalkers? Because that's what we're getting in a BattleMaster skin.

The engine restrictions were put into place because of lights lagging the servers to oblivion.