102 replies to this topic

[Lugh]

Gods forbid there be a counter to the standing stalker sniper meta that is so prevalent today.

[Wolke]

I think if anything the OP's post shows that we need more differenciation in Mech efficiencies. Different Mechs needs different efficients. No Assault should have access to spead-tweak, unless specificly -designed- to be a fast mover by canon.

[xDeityx]

This is why I'm not worried about fast assaults. Fair warning this is very math intense.

Diminishing returns on those high rated engines takes care of the problem.

I would consider the reason that the SRM Awesome was broken was because SRMs were doing bugged splash damage.

Edit: Here is the reddit thread about the slideshow. It has some good discussion and participation from the author in it.

Edited by xDeityx, 08 July 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[Tsula]

Victor Morson, on 07 July 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Look upon this monster, and you will know horror:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7a98ef85957e151

Now, dropping the engine to the the 385 range and putting on some more DHS will solve your issues if you think that's way too hot (it probably is)..



The Orange Square is likely where your view is about be, the red square is where those guns are. Talk about a ridging machine and an amazing gun layout for something that will be able to move almost 40% faster than a typical Highlander.

Your armor is going to be your problem on that sorry couple good hits to your side and your out not to say your heat is going to be deadly to self.

Edited by tsula, 08 July 2013 - 11:10 AM.

[Bilbo]

tsula, on 08 July 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Your armor is going to be your problem on that sorry couple good hits to your side and your out not to say your heat is going to be deadly to self.

Yeah, he has nearly cut his armor in half for an alpha strike he'll probably only be able to use once. Not the best tradeoff, in my opinion.

[One Medic Army]

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

This is why I'm not worried about fast assaults. Fair warning this is very math intense.

Diminishing returns on those high rated engines takes care of the problem.

I would consider the reason that the SRM Awesome was broken was because SRMs were doing bugged splash damage.

Edit: Here is the reddit thread about the slideshow. It has some good discussion and participation from the author in it.

According to my own number crunching the optimal range of speeds for an 80tonner is about 73-75kph, and for 85tons it's around 70kph with XL engines and endosteel, any faster than that and you'd be fitting more guns on a smaller mech at the same speed.

[MaddMaxx]

Sorry to ask, but where is the "announcement" that ALL Mechs are going to be allowed to mount increased MAX engine sizes?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 08 July 2013 - 11:27 AM.

[zorak ramone]

Gonna snip a few things here:

Victor Morson, on 07 July 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

For those that don't remember what closed beta was like, before engine restrictions came out, the 380-400XL Awesome dominated the battlefield when armed with close range weapons. Rushing walls of armor and firepower. There was literally no reason to bother with mediums or heavies here because mediums and heavies were just as slow as the assault.

I think there may be some other factors that contributed to the SRM AWS's dominance at that time. My memory isn't perfect, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

First of all, I think the matchmaker was a big part of the problem at this time. IIRC, the matchmaker wasn't doing a very good job of matching tonnages, meaning that you could get awesome swarm versus mixed heavy/medium teams. Also, IIRC, I don't think 8 mans were prevented from being matched against pugs at this time. I specifically remember a game where I was in a PUG and was put up against an 8 man consisting of nothing but SRM awesomes (incidentally, I don't think we were all assauts or heavies, which goes back to the tonnage issue as well). These sorts of matchups are impossible at this point.

Secondly, this was also back in the day before PPCs had their heat reduced (and projectile speed increased?). I.e. at this point, PPCs were worthless, or substandard at best. This meant that the only competitive snipers were GR snipers: K2s and CTFs, which have 15 and 10 ton disadvantages on the AWS. With PPCs actually useable, we have assault class snipers.

Quote

Something needs to be changed though or I fear that every single Assault is about to get thrown right into the trash bin that can't pull these kinds of speeds. In the very, very near future. I really hope something is done before this happens so it doesn't have to join the thread in my sig as another flashback issue.



In short we've already been through this once and it was terrible then - I do not see how it will fail to be terrible again.

The only thing I'd say to this is that we can't go about this by banning fast assaults. Its the same fallacy that some propose for the current PPC/GR dominated meta: ban mechs that can boat PPCs.

The first problem with this fallacy is that it treats the symptoms (PPC/GR dominated meta) instead of the disease (out of whack weapon balance, primarily nerfed SRMs and (IMO) unimpressive AC20/MLs, and the convergence issue). Similarly, I think that the big issues with the SRM awesome have already been handled, so we don't need to treat the symptom. Frankly, I doubt that 400XL awesomes would be scary at all in the current meta.

The second problem with this fallacy is that it bans mechs that are kind of important in the CBT universe. With the GR/PPC issue, there are plenty of PPC boats (Awesome, Warhawk), GR boats (Thunderhawk), PPC/GR boats (Devestator), and mechs that could be modified as such (Annihilator, King Crab, Mauler) using MWO's customization rules. If you ban all of these mechs by making their stock configs impossible, then you're hurting the game. Similarly, there are several mechs that are known for being fast assaults in stock, like the Banshee and its clan sibling the Gladiator/Executioner. Both of these mechs are awesome and unique in their own ways, and it would be a shame not to have them in game.

[Joseph Mallan]

Victor Morson, on 07 July 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

TL/DR: 380-400XL engine assaults absolutely broke the battlefield already once before, until only the 9M and PB remained - both inferior 'mechs for other hardpoint/layout reasons. Now we're getting two excellent hardpoint-designed 'mechs with incredibly good layouts and can operate at 400XL speed.... why bother with anything else?

So why have a 400 rate engine? Seriously, If nothing can be allowed to house it why have it in game? An 80-85 ton Mech with a top speed of what 70-80KpH! OMG the battle is over.

[Deathlike]

All I will say about having Awesomes having unrestricted engines... it's good enough to replace most mediums.

[MustrumRidcully]

I get what you're saying.

An 80 ton Assault that can move at the speed of a 50 ton medium with the firepower of an 70 ton Heavy mech is superior to anything in that category. It's just as fast, and better armed and armored (and I think many people forget the armor difference because it's a bit "invisible".)

The problem is that this is the only thing that defines mechs. THeir firepower, their armor and their speed. You might get a little bit of hit boxes being relevant, but if the Trebuchet is as huge as a Stalker, the problem is not weight dependent.

I would have hoped that the role warfare components of the game would give some form of advantage to the mediums that have the speed but not the armor or the firepower of assaults, but currently, they got bupkiss.

I still don't believe that engine restrictions are the right way to do it.

Match-Maker enforcing a drop limit might help, but I don't like it as much because I like to have a wide range of choices. I just want these choices to be fair.

So, what I could envision:
We need a more aggressive module system. We get too much for free, and most of the modules are lame, with a few exceptions.

Imagine a game like this:
- Target Sharing becomes a lot more primitive. If you're someone not specialized in scouting, an LRM boat will not be able to get "good" locks on your targets.
- If you upgrade your scouting ability with modules, you become a lot better. LRM locks work better when you target foes, they last longer.
- If you add even more modules, you can even share multiple targets. Your NARC and TAG become better.
- But you can't get these modules on an Assault or Heavy. You can get the basic improvements, but not the really good stuff.
- Seismic Module could work best on Mediums, second-best on LIghts, and worst on Assault. (Say, the module starts with a range of 100m. If you install the upgrade module - and yes, it costs a slot - for an additional 150m, it can only be done on mediums and lights. The 3rd upgrade module can only be installed on mediums. So only Mediums get a 400m radius.
- Target Information Gathering might also come with a limited upgrade, only mediums and heavies might get the "instant read" option, and only lights and mediums get the "target info sharing" module.
- Thermal Vision and Low-Light Vision might also come in two modules. THe low level avaialble to everyone and what we have now, and the second module being more powerful and in turn only available on lights and assaults.
- Zoom Modes could be more limited, and only Heavies and Mediums might get the longest range zoom mode.
- Mediums and Assaults and mechs with a command console might be the ones that can fare best with Airstrike and Artillery Strike. Lights and Heavies might in turn get the best out of the UAV.

Currently, modules are only "endgame" material. And there are very few, and they are not very powerful. They need to become more important, and they must do in the early game. The final versions might be endgame, but early on, mechs need the ability to diversify with their modules.

The above is very focused on information gathering, but that's because most of what we have right now is also around this topic. There should probably be more than that.

[Joseph Mallan]

Charger
Is this what you are worried about?

[xDeityx]

One Medic Army, on 08 July 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

According to my own number crunching the optimal range of speeds for an 80tonner is about 73-75kph, and for 85tons it's around 70kph with XL engines and endosteel, any faster than that and you'd be fitting more guns on a smaller mech at the same speed.

I just read your post, very interesting stuff. I'm fascinated with using math to help decision-making processes, especially when they are counter-intuitive like some of the mechlab choices can be. It also helps me justify all the crap I learned in high school that I never use anywhere else in my life.

It seems like your conclusions are pretty similar to Ialohcin's. Speed is good up to a certain point, and then it hits a point of diminishing returns.

Here is a graph from the last page of Ialohcin's powerpoint for those interested:

http://imgur.com/diwDYhe

[Victor Morson]

Lugh, on 08 July 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Gods forbid there be a counter to the standing stalker sniper meta that is so prevalent today.

I am convinced nobody is actually reading the thread.

All the fast Battlemaster would end up being, basically, is a faster Stalker sniper. How is this a good thing in anyone's eyes? How can anyone possibly be OK with that? "We're tired of Sniper meta! Bring on the exact same meta but make it way faster!"

I'm really failing to see why people think an 83kph 4 PPC boat is going to improve things over what we have now..

One Medic Army, on 08 July 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

According to my own number crunching the optimal range of speeds for an 80tonner is about 73-75kph, and for 85tons it's around 70kph with XL engines and endosteel, any faster than that and you'd be fitting more guns on a smaller mech at the same speed.

You are ignoring Speed Tweak, man.

[One Medic Army]

Victor Morson, on 08 July 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

You are ignoring Speed Tweak, man.

Speed tweak increases the mech's speed by 10% for each mech.
Shifting the speeds by 10% does nothing to change how stupid it is to use a 400 engine, nor does it change the relative speeds between the different chassis.

[sarkun]

@Victor Morson

Okay - maybe the BLR-1 will be the next best mech EVARRR. But I just can't coaxe myself into worrying about a mech that comes in October (and to the masses - November?) and that we only have the CONCEPT DRAWING to figure out the hitboxes etc.

The game balance right now is one of the shittiest I've ever seen - this is the problem that bugs me, not the hypothetical prowess of a chassis that we are yet to see.

[Hysteria]

I think unrestricted engine sizes would be fun, and at the same time offer some alternatives to ppc boating. Go ahead, put a fat engine in your assault because I would much rather see that than a bunch of pccs.

[Victor Morson]

Hysteria, on 08 July 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

I think unrestricted engine sizes would be fun, and at the same time offer some alternatives to ppc boating. Go ahead, put a fat engine in your assault because I would much rather see that than a bunch of pccs.

Does everyone have ADD? Does anyone even skim a thread before posting, anymore?

I've pointed out several times this isn't "instead" of high alpha meta builds.. because you can effectively run the popular 4 PPC Stalker, complete with solid heat efficiency, now going in the mid 80s. This is in part made possible by the fact you can store more heat sinks in larger engines, and thus be able to run even cooler than a slow 'mech with the right tweaks.

The very same meta you fear just got faster.

This is helping, how?

EDIT: High speed OR high alpha? Stalker? LOL

Edited by Victor Morson, 08 July 2013 - 02:52 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Victor Morson, on 08 July 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Does everyone have ADD? Does anyone even skim a thread before posting, anymore?

I've pointed out several times this isn't "instead" of high alpha meta builds.. because you can effectively run the popular 4 PPC Stalker, complete with solid heat efficiency, now going in the mid 80s. This is in part made possible by the fact you can store more heat sinks in larger engines, and thus be able to run even cooler than a slow 'mech with the right tweaks.

The very same meta you fear just got faster.

This is helping, how?

EDIT: High speed OR high alpha? Stalker? LOL

And now it has an XL engine, which makes it squishier.
Which is what everyone else is saying.

Not to mention that going fast means closing with enemies easier means actually brawling becomes feasible.

[aniviron]

I run a 380XL AWS-9M pretty regularly, and I have to say, the thing is alarmingly fragile. It's got 464 armor, but that melts pretty fast when someone puts two and two together and says "Hey that 80 ton machine is doing almost 90kph, let's shoot it in the side."

Running an engine that large also means making some tradeoffs. The two best loadouts I have found for it are 3xPPC 3xSSRM2 or 3xLLAS 2xSRM4 SRM6. While they were both much better when SRMs did damage instead of firing off party favors at your opponent, they were hardly OP.

I'm willing to wait and see if I eat my words and it turns out that the only things keeping the 9M in check are its terrible hitboxes and questionable hardpoints, but while those are serious drawbacks, the big engine really is a "shoot here" sign on your side torso as an assault, which good opponents will take advantage of every time. The only thing that really does concern me about very large engines being OP is the fact that you can stuff 15-18 crits worth of double heatsinks into them at no extra cost.