23 replies to this topic

[P e n u m b r a]

I understand pgi may have a solution also, but this is mere speculation and discussion I have played this game as well as other shooters and previous MechWarrior titles at least a high level so I do have a good understanding of it.

In other games balance between different classes and types is done with special abilities exclusive to that class these abilities give it a role. However in mwo weapons pretty much represent abilities the armour and speed differences alone is just a really bland dynamic and not enough to make them interestingly different. Heavier mechs can simply have more weapons and take more hits taking a lighter mech normally means that your main force ends up getting out numbered and out gunned once they are done all is left is top mop up the lights.

I believe a chassis limit for matches should be in place but I also believe that just that on its own is a copout to creating a diverse and interesting balance and I don’t mean a light can down an assault with ease more like making different mechs bring something different to the table.

For example the pilot tree why not make that different for different mechs, for example a raven pilot tree unlock could allow visually marking up more than 3 mechs and relaying that target info back to the team. Currently you need to target a single mech to have it target-able. Or another have UAV a unlock in the light tree or give it a cool down for lights? What about just having modules exclusive to certain weight groups things like seismic? Other things could have a cool down like artillery / air strikes for the lights.

Under-powered mechs that are meant to carry a lot of energy weapons like the awesome could be improved by allowing them to carry double 9x9 flushes faster heat dissipation or something along those lines.

In regards to table top there is a whole other dimension that comes into play in the game that does not exist in the board game and it is not currently being addressed this is the 3d dimension im specifically talking about visual shape of a mech, this can make a mech that is supposed to be good horrible for example a stalker will annihilate an awesome simply because of its shape hence these mechs should have other advantages in the pilot tree or in moduels.

Mediums also should have the engine scaling looked at and their visual model size reduced (look at centurion’s arms next to an atlas) the engines can’t get that much faster than a heavy without gimping themselves. The only thing you can really do effectively is stack 1 ton weapons to gain that speed but whats the point when a light can do the exact same but run faster? Perhaps giving them better handling acceleration/deceleration possibly allowing full stop in the pilot tree to allow you to stop the mech and change direction allowing you to trick people trying to lead shots etc.

As for weapons I really feel we are missing some monsters that would fill a huge gap mainly LBX20 ultra ac10 and 20, heavy lasers streak 4 and 6 any of these would give a stronger punch to the mediums and heavies in close range for the tons they cost.

As for current in game weapons I suggest these changes:

increase internal structure hp to make crit seeking more worth while

Increase srm damage to 1.7

Increase velocity of lbx to hit near instantly within its optimal range

Put ppc velocity to match gauss

150% heat has chance to explode a random single heat sinks causing damage to that location like a ammo explosion keeping the CT damage at 120%.

heating up slows mech speed increasing with the more heat present

Edited by Le0yo, 08 July 2013 - 01:32 PM.

[Roland]

Quote

For example the pilot tree why not make that different for different mechs, for example a raven pilot tree unlock could allow visually marking up more than 3 mechs and relaying that target info back to the team. Currently you need to target a single mech to have it target-able. Or another have UAV a unlock in the light tree or give it a cool down for lights? What about just having modules exclusive to certain weight groups things like seismic? Other things could have a cool down like artillery / air strikes for the lights.

They actually had something exactly like this in the early developer notes... A bunch of different "trees" for the pilot skills, each centered on different roles.

For instance, they had scout which included some of the exact things you suggest (like being able to simultaneously target multiple mechs). They had assault, which had things like "Charge" which increased melee damage.

Not sure what happened to all those things, or whether they just got scrapped because they were too hard to implement or something.

Quote

In regards to table top there is a whole other dimension that comes into play in the game that does not exist in the board game and it is not currently being addressed this is the 3d dimension im specifically talking about visual shape of a mech, this can make a mech that is supposed to be good horrible for example a stalker will annihilate an awesome simply because of its shape hence these mechs should have other advantages in the pilot tree or in moduels.

Agreed. The thing is, tons of folks have pointed out some pretty obvious changes that need to be made. For instance, essentially all of the medium weight chassis are too big. EVERYONE AGREES ON THIS. And yet the developers have refused to rescale any of those models. Why? Because... reasons?

For a mech like the awesome, someone once pointed out that if you select an arm in the mechlab, the "arm" section actually includes the shoulder-pads on the tops of the side torsos. If they simply made the hitboxes reflect what the mechlab already shows, then the Awesome would instantly become a much more survivable mech. And yet, again, they haven't done this because...reasons.

Quote

As for weapons I really feel we are missing some monsters that would fill a huge gap mainly LBX20 ultra ac10 and 20, heavy lasers streak 4 and 6 any of these would give a stronger punch to the mediums and heavies in close range for the tons they cost

Well, a lot of these simply don't exist in the timeline yet. They're all post-clan invasion weaponry.

The clan tech stuff is gonna break everything though. The MadCat alone will be able to absolutely obliterate a whole lance of anything on the field now. 100 lrm's (that have no minimum range), with CERPPC's, running around at 80kph, and a million clan double heat sinks. It's gonna be hillarious.

[FupDup]

Roland, on 08 July 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Well, a lot of these simply don't exist in the timeline yet. They're all post-clan invasion weaponry.

The clan tech stuff is gonna break everything though. The MadCat alone will be able to absolutely obliterate a whole lance of anything on the field now. 100 lrm's (that have no minimum range), with CERPPC's, running around at 80kph, and a million clan double heat sinks. It's gonna be hillarious.

The Mad Cat is a bad example of Clan tech brokenness because it's fairly likely to have those ears count as side torso hitboxes...which means it'll be literally incapable of twisting to spread damage. The CT and head hitbox might get Catapult treatment, effectively making the mech as durable as this model of it:


My real worries come from whatever Clan assault(s) come with the likely invasion-crowdfunding pack. A Warhawk or Dire Wolf will easily be outfitted with quad ERPPCs and up to 30 DHS. Trollololollol.

Edited by FupDup, 08 July 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[Roland]

Quote

The Mad Cat is a bad example of Clan tech brokenness because it's fairly likely to have those ears count as side torso hitboxes...which means it'll be literally incapable of twisting to spread damage. The CT and head hitbox might get Catapult treatment, effectively making the mech as durable as this model of it:

In past incarnations of MW, the MadCat's "ears" were considered to be "Auxillery" hit locations, not side torsos. I would expect the same to be the case in MWO.

The reality is, even in MW4 with the massive CT, the MadCat was still a beast when used correctly, just because of the absurd amount of firepower the thing could mount.

[FupDup]

Roland, on 08 July 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

In past incarnations of MW, the MadCat's "ears" were considered to be "Auxillery" hit locations, not side torsos. I would expect the same to be the case in MWO.

The reality is, even in MW4 with the massive CT, the MadCat was still a beast when used correctly, just because of the absurd amount of firepower the thing could mount.

The seperate hitboxes were MW4 only. AFAIK, MW3 had them as side torsos and MW2 might have as well (never played MW2). There's been HUD glitches showing shoulder pods but this doesn't confirm that PGI plans to do it (it does confirm that they strongly considered it though). We'll have to see what they do with the Thunderbolt first I guess.


Of course, modular weapon models means that one can avoid this issue by simply not mounting missiles in the side torsos.

Edited by FupDup, 08 July 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[No7]

Good stuff. This is how you should start balancing issues. Not by massive nerf bats to the left or right. Make more mechs interesting and make the pilot tree worth it. What is the point when it is just a boring grind to get mechs leveled up to a point where everyone is? Make exclusive choices. If you pick this skill, you will not be able to pick that. Gives diversity, immersion and a sense of accomplishment to create a pilot skill for a mech to better match the play style you want. All good.

And I do agree that more weapons are needed to bring a better balance to the game. Even if they don't exists in the timeline yet. Just like the double armor change, for the game to be like PGI have visioned, some things needs to be changed from the board game and timeline.

Make it so.

7

[P e n u m b r a]

With no option to setup proper games the information fed to the devs is very skewed. when srm was very strong you could compete with long ranged players in a solo que however a full team of centurions and splat cats would roll anything in seconds in a team game.

So with that in mind if everyone in a solo que goes their own way and there is no coordination going on it is more effective to sit at the back use them as a meat shields, pick off the exact same stragglers on the opposing team with ranged weapons, it’s just a way more effective way to play.

With the current low power srm and not knowing what map you are going to get ppc / gauss is just the safest option to go with there is going to be a lot of them in the data and a lot of crying about them on the forums. Brawling requires group movements to overrun the enemy creating the zombie effect with a piranha swarm you just can’t get enough shots in on a single target to down it once your front lines are broken its easier for the pack to pick a target and down it with backstabs than it is for you trying to tag one in the swarm.

With that in mind if brawlers are to be good in solo que there is a VERY high chance they are going to be overpowered in team games they still are strong even now just yesterday my team was rolled by nothing but fast medium laser blackjacks and ac20 jeagermechs that did nothing but run directly into us then proceed to kill us we had 6 assaults and we managed to down 2…

In short the balance and meta comes from the environment you force people into, prime example of this is that little duel tourney at the moment where you are told to go into a square and duke it out, the load outs are low heat high dps you won’t see ppc doing too well there. This is worrying because a lot of people find this more fun and speak loud on the forums, personally I don’t like brawling it feels to messy to me. I like using the terrain tactically and laying down fire, people scream and call cheese etc but then boating IS part of battletech in fact a lot of the best mechs in table top were boats hellstar for example was just 4 erppc and 30 doublesinks. Why do some people feel pin point damage is a bad thing there is pin point in every single shooter out there and they are considered the highest skill weapons and the time to kill is even faster in those games with no penalty why is it the devil here when you still need to land multiple shots on a single part no one likes randomness.

Edited by Le0yo, 08 July 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Le0yo, on 08 July 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

Why do some people feel pin point damage is a bad thing there is pin point in every single shooter out there and they are considered the highest skill weapons and the time to kill on those is even faster in those games with no penalty why is it the devil here when you still need to land multiple shots on a single part no one likes randomness.

1) not part of TT

2) This is MWO it has its roots in TT. it should not be considered or turned into a FPS. it will suffer from typical FPS issues with regards to weapon balance. please see forum

3) other shooters let players use one weapon at a time... MWO - multiple simultaneous.

4)Single shot kills to the head are the highest form of "skill" with high or low damage weapons on a small moving target that has damage bonus, not my atlas CT.

5) Most FPs based on real weapons have some form of COF for balancing it makes the weapons different.

6) 1 sniper rifle shots 6 times will hit 6 locations and needs more skill to kill then 6 sniper rifles fired once that is guaranteed to all hit the same location.

7) The reason you need to land more shots is PGI buffed TT states to compensate. people strip armor off the rear just to survive for 4 more seconds. PGI did this because people died way too fast... it wasn't fun.

8) The complete lack of re spawn. you get one life per game. fast time to kill games need some form of multiple lives or it sucks.

9) it clearly favors heavy and assault mechs.

10) it promotes the pop tart and hide and seek meta

11) it trivializes heat as balancing mechanic.

i could go on... but reasons for not having or limiting pin point damage has been thoroughly discussed for 1.5+ years.

[P e n u m b r a]

Tombstoner, on 08 July 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

1) not part of TT

2) This is MWO it has its roots in TT. it should not be considered or turned into a FPS. it will suffer from typical FPS issues with regards to weapon balance. please see forum

3) other shooters let players use one weapon at a time... MWO - multiple simultaneous.

4)Single shot kills to the head are the highest form of "skill" with high or low damage weapons on a small moving target that has damage bonus, not my atlas CT.

5) Most FPs based on real weapons have some form of COF for balancing it makes the weapons different.

6) 1 sniper rifle shots 6 times will hit 6 locations and needs more skill to kill then 6 sniper rifles fired once that is guaranteed to all hit the same location.

7) The reason you need to land more shots is PGI buffed TT states to compensate. people strip armor off the rear just to survive for 4 more seconds. PGI did this because people died way too fast... it wasn't fun.

8) The complete lack of re spawn. you get one life per game. fast time to kill games need some form of multiple lives or it sucks.

9) it clearly favors heavy and assault mechs.

10) it promotes the pop tart and hide and seek meta

11) it trivializes heat as balancing mechanic.

i could go on... but reasons for not having or limiting pin point damage has been thoroughly discussed for 1.5+ years.

This is a computer game based on the TT like many other games for example all those warhammer games were nothing like the table top but they were still popular.
There is dimensions in play in this game that just are not there in the table top, you do not control all the mechs and you cannot see the entire table. The shape of the mechs matter, everything is happening in real time, you don't have as much time to plan your next move. Example a atlas and stalker are climbing exact mirrored facing hills in real time the stalker will be able to see the atlas crest take a shot and get down before the atlas can clear his guns. how can this happen in table top they will both be in position at the same time if they move in the same turn and both get shots in the shooting... dice rolls are the pilot accuracy heck i think id have less than a 1 in 12 chance of hitting with some of the players i spectate but sure some of the high elo players are rolling snake eyes no way you can represent this in game

Also you think at 900m a mechs CT or side panels are any bigger than a head or chest in any other shooter? no they are not I have played shooters to a very high level, also the COF you mention on weapons in shooters not so true its mainly to balance fully automatic weapons and should probably be introduced to something like UAC10/20 or HAG. Anyone who plays shooters knows the first 2 shots are dead on the cross hair and any weapon with the recycle time at around a ppc or gauss time hits at the crosshair.

Not sure what you are talking about one bullet in the sniper rifle from other games vs 6 in mwo? in bf3 its a 2 shot at max range quake railgun 2 shots. In arma 2 and cs is one shot landing anywhere on the body. In mwo even 6 erppc is still at least 4 shots max range to the exact location with a heat penalty the amount does not matter its the overall damage the single bullet still does more damage in those games than 6 ppc here also there is no respawn in cs and arma 2.

You could go on but you would ill informed and wrong the cone of fire would not work on the weapon systems in mwo because they are just not mechanically that way or rapid enough to kick out a recoil where controlling said recoil is its own skill. What you suggest is a completely random system where just getting point blank with rapid high dps weapons would just be the most efficient way to play, the closer you are and the higher rate of fire the better chance you would have to deal damage to the same spot. you would end up with mechs humping each other mindlessly shooting not fun, boring.

It is and should be considered a first person shooter just look at first google description on the main page

"'A Thinking Person's Shooter' – IGN. EPIC PvP COMBAT. MechWarrior Online delivers a AAA shooter experience unlike anything you've ever experienced." as well as the entry into pc gamers top 25 best first person shooters if it was not a shooter why would it even be on that list, perhaps you are playing the wrong game?

Edited by Le0yo, 08 July 2013 - 12:39 PM.

[No7]

Tombstoner, on 08 July 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

2) This is MWO it has its roots in TT. it should not be considered or turned into a FPS. it will suffer from typical FPS issues with regards to weapon balance. please see forum

Le0yo, on 08 July 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

"'A Thinking Person's Shooter' – IGN. EPIC PvP COMBAT. MechWarrior Online delivers a AAA shooter experience unlike anything you've ever experienced." as well as the entry into pc gamers top 25 best first person shooters if it was not a shooter why would it even be on that list, perhaps you are playing the wrong game?

Yeah, I don't know what game Tombstoner thinks he is playing if he doesn't even know that he is playing a fps. Amazing.

[Roland]

Was MWO really put into the list of 25 best FPS's?

I mean, yes, it's obviously a FPS. I don't understand how anyone could think otherwise.... but one of the best? Ever? That seems a bit premature.

[P e n u m b r a]

http://mwomercs.com/...e/page__st__260

19 in beta

the game is currently in agile software development the stated release is when they feel their vision will be reached the money put in now is helping development I have no idea why people rage quit when they have agreed to the beta they have always said sept was target (although exact day has only just been stated).

[Brandon Howell]

I agree with what Leoyo on the state of weapon balancing. I have seen how the ppc/gauss meta rules over all other weapons at this very moment because there simply isn't any other weapon configs that can reliably beat it (except perhaps ac40). With brawling weapons you run the risk of getting a map that may not be favorable to brawling (tourmaline, avalanche) and even when you can get those mechs into brawling range ppc/gauss can still put out enough punch to take out brawlers and win.

So to make brawlers more competitive i think it definitely is time to re-examine close range weapons and start buffing those weapons to be more in line with ppc (while also giving a slight slight nerf to ppc). I would look at the srm damage as leoyo pointed out, and i'd look at the laser side of energy weapons. In MW4 lasers did instant damage and it was the counter to teams boating ppc. While i am not advocating for the exact same treatment in MWO for lasers I feel that the time to damage targets should be reduced some lasers (Pulse lasers and Med/small ).

Currently pulse lasers do more damage that it's counterpart but at the loss of range,heat,tonnage. So by reducing the time it takes to do max damage (more damage per pulse beam), and increasing the speed that the beams fire individually (not the cycle time of the weapon) it would make it a much better brawling weapon to use for close up engagements allowing for you to put close to instant damage on a mech; then turn to avoid the return fire in the brawl. (do this for both small, medium, and large pulse lasers)

On the medium laser / small laser side of the coin i'd also give it the same treatment except with the time to inflict max damage being shorted. Mediums should do more of its damage faster than say a large laser would do in the same time and vice versa with a small v medium (IE the bigger the laser the more time you have to hold it on target to do maximum damage).

With lasers aside I think that we should have chassis limits (tonnage caps) in games to prevent the extreme amount of assaults we see in a single match; while also giving individual mechs role specific bonuses. A raven should be able to get extra rewards via a pilot tree or specialization over another like mech that wasn't developed for electronic warfare (leoyo example: showing several mechs simultaneously on the battle field). This should be done for the current mechs in the game.

Other things that need to be looked at is the scaling of mechs currently in the game being way off from their TT scaling. A Hunchback should not be as tall as a highlander or as wide making it very easy to hit at long range. I think that many of the lights, mediums need to be reworked in size to prevent that from happening as easily as it is now.

Last things that i really like from leoyo:
-The idea to buff lbx pellets to damage faster at low ranges
-Chance to crit heat sinks if you go way over heat (150%)
-Increasing heat slows down the speed at which a mech can run (and perhaps the dissipation of heat as well).

[Roland]

Le0yo, on 08 July 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...e/page__st__260

19 in beta

That's the worst list of best FPS's I've ever seen.
Somehow MWO beats bioshock? A critically acclaimed masterpiece loses to a beta game? Really?

And the original halflife wasn't even on there?

That is some ******** **** right there.

[Tombstoner]

No7, on 08 July 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Yeah, I don't know what game Tombstoner thinks he is playing if he doesn't even know that he is playing a fps. Amazing.

Do you even understand the difference between a simulation and a FPS?

The OP wanted to know why some people are against pin point damage for MWO. those are some of mine.

[Roland]

Mechwarrior was really never a simulator.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Roland, on 08 July 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

That's the worst list of best FPS's I've ever seen.
Somehow MWO beats bioshock? A critically acclaimed masterpiece loses to a beta game? Really?

And the original halflife wasn't even on there?

That is some ******** **** right there.

It's amazing what a briefcase of cash will buy you.

Tombstoner, on 08 July 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Do you even understand the difference between a simulation and a FPS?

The OP wanted to know why some people are against pin point damage for MWO. those are some of mine.

Battletech is a simulation of warfare based on a table top.
Mechwarrior has always been a standard first/third person shooter.


As to the topic at hand, i pretty much agree although a number of the weapon systems you talk about just are not in the time line yet.
Brawling weapons need some serious work, FF armor needs some serious love too.

Critically, the matchmaker needs to be fixed and competitive play supported for accurate balance pictures.
Heat scale needs a rework- to be meaningful
LBX and a lesser extent MG's need to crit seek.
Pulse lasers across the board need to be redesigned.

The pilot skills tree we have now, is not a skills tree at all...it's a random dumb collect em all scenario. There is no choice, no thought to it just a mindless unlock grind.
I have no idea where the actual design idea for the skills tree went....not something PGI have been challenged on either.

Edited by DV McKenna, 08 July 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[P e n u m b r a]

its more the fact that its actually on a fps list pretty much declares the games genre even in "actual" simulators you wrecked if you were good at shooters. Arma II for example never had this lulz random cone that people living the battletech dream want =(. You can actually still pretty much brawl in mwo try run all medium laser maxed out engine blackjacks with ac 40 jeagers b-line for the base with cap accelerators run along the most visually obscured routes on the map use the base tower as a line of sight block so they have to come in close then kill first target that comes in to defend. You will rick roll everything the ppcs are delicate for sure a big nerfs going to throw the game into brainless bumb rushing with games back to lasting minutes.

Edited by Le0yo, 08 July 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[XxRingWraithxX]

I honestly want to make the game better and not simply find fault in others.

So ill voice my opinion for the sake of the game AND community now because i see this as a critical time in the game now. Done the wrong way it could die. (no one wants that).

Like it or not, this game is a first person shooter.

You won't appeal to any person playing fps by randomizing what should be pinpoint damage and taking away the only weapons that deal that at any sort of range effectively.

An honorable base of Mech fans's started this game with battle tech and board. We love them for that but randomization (dice rolling) is not an option for any fps game.

I've seen organizations start from a great base of supporters but when that small privileged base of persons can no longer fund the organization, then it's time to appeal to a massive crowd that can and will keep it operating (The FPS Crowd).


As for balance: buff the close range weapons to a balance with ppcs now. That way tactics can over run sniper positions. Don't limit the number of effective weapons, increase them and balance.

Ringwraith

Edited by RinG, 08 July 2013 - 06:51 PM.

[No7]

Tombstoner, on 08 July 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Do you even understand the difference between a simulation and a FPS? The OP wanted to know why some people are against pin point damage for MWO. those are some of mine.

So now that you have been proven wrong on every point, are you capable of using that new knowledge to update your perception of the game?

Or do you still believe in cone of fire?