68 replies to this topic

[Avengar]

they really are they are fair and balanced. the problem with them is boating. If you just increase the heat per ppc loaded that would fix the problem. rough example 1-2 normal heat per shot 3 plus 2 heat per ppc, 4 plus 4 heat per ppc shot. so if you had 3 ppc's each shot would cause 11 heat per shot instead of 8 for an alpha strike of 33 heat instead of 24. this is just a rough idea

[Orzorn]

No need to complex systems. Increasing ERPPC's to their past values of 15 or so heat would devastate boats enough, as that would be an increase of 20-30 heat.

Mechs that run single or double ERPPCs usually don't run hot enough to be that afraid of the heat increase.

[Hysteria]

Reduce the overall heat threshold and you could solve the problem of boating all together. Everybody would basically be forced to group fire their weapons efficiently or end up overheating from alpha striking because you pop the heat threshold any time you get too alpha happy.

[Livewyr]

PPCs are fine! It's Boating that's the problem!



Ok.. so if PPCs are ok.. and boating is the real problem.. why aren't I seeing a bunch of AC10 boats?


(If the weapon is balanced, boating it is balanced- see 9ML Hunch)

[Orzorn]

Hysteria, on 08 July 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Reduce the overall heat threshold and you could solve the problem of boating all together. Everybody would basically be forced to group fire their weapons efficiently or end up overheating from alpha striking because you pop the heat threshold any time you get too alpha happy.

We could make double heat sinks only count for +1 to the heat cap (same as single heat sinks).

In that manner, it might help to balance singles vs doubles. If you want a high heat cap, you use single heat sinks (but suffer from using 3 tons for the same criticals as a double heat sink). If you want higher dissipation, you use doubles.

Chances are, most would still use doubles, but at least heat caps wouldn't be massive anymore.

Edited by Orzorn, 08 July 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[DeadlyNerd]

Livewyr, on 08 July 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

PPCs are fine! It's Boating that's the problem!



Ok.. so if PPCs are ok.. and boating is the real problem.. why aren't I seeing a bunch of AC10 boats?


(If the weapon is balanced, boating it is balanced- see 9ML Hunch)

A. because they're the size of gauss rifles and usually cannot be fit more than 1 in a bodypart
B. because they're heavier
C. because not many mechs actually have more than 2 well placed ballistic HPs, and enough tonnage to pack 3

On a comical note, because LRM boats are wiping out what's left behind PPC boats.
Yes, my dear box dweller, boating IS the real problem.

[One Medic Army]

Compare the PPC to the following:

Medium Laser (PPC has same heat efficiency, much more concentrated dmg, more range)
Large Laser (PPC slightly hotter, better range, much more concentrated dmg, slightly heavier)
AC/5 (PPC is much hotter, smaller, lighter, no ammo, and 2x the damage per shot)
AC/10 (PPC is much smaller/lighter, no ammo, around 3x the heat, longer range, same dmg/shot)

PPCs aren't giving up much for their frontloaded damage when compared to lasers, and they're flat out superior to almost all the ballistics due to either superior single-hit damage and/or lower weight/heat and no ammo.

Yes, PPCs do need a nerf to come back in-line with other weapons.

Edited by One Medic Army, 08 July 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[Livewyr]

DeadlyNerd, on 08 July 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

A. because they're the size of gauss rifles and usually cannot be fit more than 1 in a bodypart
B. because they're heavier
C. because not many mechs actually have more than 2 well placed ballistic HPs, and enough tonnage to pack 3

On a comical note, because LRM boats are wiping out what's left behind PPC boats.
Yes, my dear box dweller, boating IS the real problem.

A: Well.. what do you know.. weapon has some critical flaw with boating!
B: Another one!
C: Crazy isn't it.. can mount 2 PPCs on a raven 4x, but not two Gauss Rifles or even 2 AC10s..

Seems those weapons are balanced against boating.

LRMs are balanced.. you know what LRM boats don't like?
ECM
AMS
Some jerk within 180 meters...
and my favorite- some guys that knows what "cover" means...

They don't like those at all..

LRMs are balanced, therefore LRM boats are balanced.

[FrDrake]

PPCs aren't fine, when I go to level my CDA-3A and my TRB-7K I shouldn't land on the most effective build being 2 PPCs (in both cases). I tried other loadouts, I wanted some variety, but in the end if I wanted to be effective enough to have a shot at the win, my best chance was with PPCs.

Everyone likes to toss out sophisticated ideas and fancy solutions that would require significant rework and overhead, but all you really need to do is "fix" PPC heat by putting it back where it should be. I have already seen a significant reduction in ERPPC boats since the latest overheat changes. PPC heat needs to go back to 10(ERPPC 13-15) where it should be, and BAM, LL and LPL look like viable alternatives and choices instead of just "LOL why would I use those when I have this PPC".

Its stats are too good right now.

[Orzorn]

DeadlyNerd, on 08 July 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

A. because they're the size of gauss rifles and usually cannot be fit more than 1 in a bodypart
B. because they're heavier
C. because not many mechs actually have more than 2 well placed ballistic HPs, and enough tonnage to pack 3

On a comical note, because LRM boats are wiping out what's left behind PPC boats.
Yes, my dear box dweller, boating IS the real problem.

Give me a list of mechs in the current game that boat. Mech builds I mean.

We see PPC boats (all over the place), and maybe an LRM boat or so (which is fine, they have a minimum range). We aren't seeing Hunchback 4P's dominating, so that boating isn't an issue. SRM boats aren't nearly as much a problem as they were because SRMs have been nerfed several times (and could probably use a buff). The best ballistic "boat" you might get is actually just two AC/20s on a Jagermech.

Really, if we just nerfed the heat on ERPPCs back to around 15, the problem would be hit very hard.

Boating isn't the issue. PPC boating is, and it happens because PPCs are low crit, low weight (compared to ballistics), high damage, high speed weapons with controllable heat levels. Make their heat more serious and those boaters get cooked.

Consider that a 6 PPC (not ERPPC) boat currently generates 48 heat. If we bumped PPC heat to 10 (from the current 8), they'd generate 60 heat. ERPPC boats (lets assume 4 ERPPCs) would go from 44 heat to 60 if we bumped ERPPCs back to 15 heat from their current 11 heat. Both of those heat level increases would be unbearable to PPC boaters.

Edited by Orzorn, 08 July 2013 - 12:55 PM.

[Hysteria]

Orzorn, on 08 July 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Consider that a 6 PPC (not ERPPC) boat currently generates 48 heat. If we bumped PPC heat to 10 (from the current 8), they'd generate 60 heat. ERPPC boats (lets assume 4 ERPPCs) would go from 44 heat to 60 if we bumped ERPPCs back to 15 heat from their current 11 heat. Both of those heat level increases would be unbearable to PPC boaters.

Despite all my hopes and dreams about heat threshold changes, I honestly believe PGI's solution to PPCs will be something close to this. Increasing the heat that drastically will make boating them very challenging, if not impossible. Keep your fingers crossed I guess.

[Coralld]

Standard PPC needs to have its heat raised back up to 10, ERPPC needs to have heat raised back up to 15, or 14 at the lowest. Reduce their projectile speed so that its close to Gauss Rifles which is 1,200ms, where as the current PPCs have a projectile speed of 2,000ms. Reduce max heat threshold and increase heat dissipation. This would be the most easy way to help bring PPCs back in line.

[Orzorn]

Coralld, on 08 July 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

Standard PPC needs to have its heat raised back up to 10, ERPPC needs to have heat raised back up to 15, or 14 at the lowest. Reduce their projectile speed so that its close to Gauss Rifles which is 1,200ms, where as the current PPCs have a projectile speed of 2,000ms. Reduce max heat threshold and increase heat dissipation. This would be the most easy way to help bring PPCs back in line.

Which would basically return them to their past (many months ago) states, except for their ability to affect ECM.

Funny how balancing around the fact that damage was tossed out the window would cause issues down the road when HSR was added into the game.

[Livewyr]

Orzorn, on 08 July 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Which would basically return them to their past (many months ago) states, except for their ability to affect ECM.

Funny how balancing around the fact that damage was tossed out the window would cause issues down the road when HSR was added into the game.

Actually.. absolutely not.
They were useless months ago because they did splash, had horrible convergence issues, and netcode in general was garbage.

[Trip Hammer]

I've been keeping an eye on the new heat increases that are supposed to punish people for boating. Instead of seeing a drop in the boats I'm seeing more of them (specifically PPC's and LRM's). While I think the basic intention was good I think that the execution is bad. In one match I looked at the damage report for what killed me and it was all PPC fire. In another is was nothing but LRM's and PPC's. In fact the majority of what has been killing me has been those two weapon systems.

At this point I think they really need to look for a different solution to the problem. Changing convergence or switching to a different loadout scheme (ie the slot system from MW3/4) needs to be tried. Maybe if they get the test server up soon they can try mass tests that way. Whatever they do they need to do it soon with their planned launch date of September 17th.

Just my two cents worth.

[Coralld]

The Faceless, on 08 July 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

I've been keeping an eye on the new heat increases that are supposed to punish people for boating. Instead of seeing a drop in the boats I'm seeing more of them (specifically PPC's and LRM's). While I think the basic intention was good I think that the execution is bad. In one match I looked at the damage report for what killed me and it was all PPC fire. In another is was nothing but LRM's and PPC's. In fact the majority of what has been killing me has been those two weapon systems.

At this point I think they really need to look for a different solution to the problem. Changing convergence or switching to a different loadout scheme (ie the slot system from MW3/4) needs to be tried. Maybe if they get the test server up soon they can try mass tests that way. Whatever they do they need to do it soon with their planned launch date of September 17th.

Just my two cents worth.

The new heat stacking penalty isan't implemented yet.

Livewyr, on 08 July 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Actually.. absolutely not.
They were useless months ago because they did splash, had horrible convergence issues, and netcode in general was garbage.

Beat me to it.

Yep, the reason why the PPC was crap way back when was because of net code, hit detection issues, and all round bugginess, not because of heat issues. But sense all of those problems have been addressed and solved for the most part PPCs will still be useful.

[Orzorn]

Livewyr, on 08 July 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Actually.. absolutely not.
They were useless months ago because they did splash, had horrible convergence issues, and netcode in general was garbage.

Coralld, on 08 July 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

The new heat stacking penalty isan't implemented yet.

Beat me to it.

Yep, the reason why the PPC was crap way back when was because of net code, hit detection issues, and all round bugginess, not because of heat issues. But sense all of those problems have been addressed and solved for the most part PPCs will still be useful.

That's sort of what I meant, but I didn't form it right. HSR fixed two of those issues, and the other was some odd PPC projectile shape or something that gave it splash. Because as far as I remember, PPC's never officially had splash.

[Coralld]

Orzorn, on 08 July 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

That's sort of what I meant, but I didn't form it right. HSR fixed two of those issues, and the other was some odd PPC projectile shape or something that gave it splash. Because as far as I remember, PPC's never officially had splash.

oh, thanks for clearing that up, what you posted before sounded way different.

[Orzorn]

Coralld, on 08 July 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

oh, thanks for clearing that up, what you posted before sounded way different.

Basically, what we all seem to be saying is that increased heat shouldn't harm the PPC as a viable weapon, only as a boated weapon (which is the issue here).

As long as you combine it with lower heat weapons (Gauss rifles, medium lasers, SRMs, whatever) it should be okay in single and double varieties. 3 PPC might even still be usable, but 4 and more would suffer from serious heat issues. You'd likely get one shot off and then have to wait for your heat to reduce.

[Vaktor]

The simplest way to fix PCC's so people do not boat them is to make them explode when they overheat over 120%... Nice simple fix that does not change how they function when they are used in sensible numbers.