1084 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

aniviron, on 11 July 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

To all the people suggesting removing group fire: excellent idea, I can't see this being abused by people with macros to create faux-groups that do the same thing, at all, ever. It also seems reasonable to expect pilots to manage up to 12 weapons at once without firegroups that go at once.

Have you ever tried macroing your way out of the AC/20's 4 second recycle time?

It's not that hard to actually enforce such limits. Though I kinda get it - you probably just don't have faith that PGI would think of it. Might be a good point.

SERVER ENFORCED WEAPON GLOBAL COOLDOWNs TO ENFORCE CHAIN FIRE
You don't need to give every weapon a global cooldown, and not every weapon needs the same. Boating Medium Lasers is not a big deal in terms of pinpoint precision. Boating AC/20s or PPCs however is (even if the "boat" consists of only 2 guns).
Start with 0.25 GCD for AC/10 and (ER) PPC, and 0.5 GCD for AC/20 and Gauss. (And yeah, while you're at it, set the Chain FIre delay to 0.25 seconds, not 0.5 seconds.)
When firing any gun, every weapon with a GCD goes on its GCD.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 11 July 2013 - 02:27 PM.

[Team Leader]

This heat scaling isnt the way to solve anything....
check my sig. Far better in every way. Everyone put that link in their sig, maybe some day the devs will actually read it and grow some sense.

Edited by Team Leader, 11 July 2013 - 02:26 PM.

[icey]

like 1000 other people have said/will say, please stop wasting cycles on this horrible heat penalty system

please just put srm to 2, and ppc/erppc to 10/15, and forget this whole thing happened.

dont remove choices from players.

Edited by icey, 11 July 2013 - 02:30 PM.

[Jacmac]

Adding my 2 cents, punishing 4-6 PPC boaters is understandable. Breaking a chassis like the AWS-8R (4x LRM 15), which is not overpowered by any stretch, is a bad move. All the Max Alpha penalty is going to do is drive players into 2 PPC + Gauss builds. We will see some chassis types disappear from the battlefield and chassis that do not have a variety of weapon types will be rarely seen. By bending the rules inch by inch, you are going to break the game inch by inch.

[IceSerpent]

Deathlike, on 11 July 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

In those days, splash damage was obscene until the major missile nerf that must not be mentioned... that in part was the beginning of the end of balance...

And your point is that Paul tested this thing prior to missile nerf and is still using old data? I hope that's not the case, but it's definitely possible...

Edited by IceSerpent, 11 July 2013 - 02:30 PM.

[PropagandaWar]

tsula, on 11 July 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

All I can say is this of the people who vote yes to fix SRM damage to 2.0 . Do not post thousands apon thousands of threads later saying SRM are OP or broken, nerf them and what not. I'd rather see the hit detection fixed then see where SRM rank. So we will switch from high alpha to high SRM again. You've been warned. I voted no

I wont. I have been using SRM's virtually since day one. I've been using them since the nerf too. I've had to fight StreakCats/Splatcats/Thundercats/Guass Cats/Boom Jagers/UACPhracts/SmurfBolt Stalkers/Jump Snipers/PPC Snipers/LRM Boats/Non Hit Registering lights Galore all in a Hunchback with 4 Medium Lasers a SRM 4 and a SRM 6. I think I can handle being able to brawl a little more effectivly again without having to work 3 times harder then the above mentioned mechs an the like. Oh and don't forget to put on your ams another thing against SRM's to top off Spread/Heat/Ammo/Tonnage

Edited by PropagandaWar, 11 July 2013 - 02:30 PM.

[MisterFiveSeven]

MustrumRidcully, on 11 July 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Boating is awesome for one primary reason - group fire + convergence. You press the trigger, and instantly, a boatload of damage arrives at the precise location you aimed.

I see what you did there

[Featherwood]

Shoo, all you greedy kids! Let them fix old bugs/balance errors before making new ones.

[Sign]

It baffles me to no end how PGI keeps ignoring the dozens if not hundreds of voices against this monumentally stupid heat change. WHY CAN'T THEY GET IT THROUGH THEIR THICK HEADS... THIS HEAT CHANGE IS HORRENDOUS.

A plethora of chassises and variants nerfed because of the inability to address the real issues of convergence and too high no penalties heat capacity (Increasing heat capacity through heat sinks... REAL SMART MOVE)... How can the be so utterly disconnected from the mechanic implications and workings of their own game! This won't address the high insta-aim pinpoint damage, will just promote macros to minimize the penalties, and we're back to square one. The heat system is fundamentally flawed and PGI just won't accept it, so we're doomed.

The day this change gets pushed into live, is the day Mechwarrior truly dies and we might as well call this game anything else.

[Bunko]

Where's the "It's your job to decide these things." option?

[Winterdyne]

Do Not Want. This heat scale thing sounds contrived, terribly. And as mentioned it borks a lot of canon builds. Please rethink it.

[Harmin]

Please do not do this for it's in my opinion a bad mechanic. And an unproven one.

Put PPCs to 10 heat where they belong. ER PPCs to 15 where they belong.
Have mechs take damage (especially melt the hot running weapons!) when > 100%.

That's all what's needed to sort out the energy boating.

Please don't do this. Just don't.

Disclaimer: I don't run any PPC boats or even your typical PPC+Gauss sniper. I have a mouse with 5 buttons and I can program a macro client so I can probably cope better than most. I still think it's a bad idea, a bad mechanic and please do not do this!

-Armin

[Master Q]

Repeating again.

THE PROBLEM IS CONVERGENCE.

Car analogy because everyone gets them.

Every time I see PGI / Paul saying what they are fixing it is like seeing someone who knows nothing about vehicles trying to shotgun-debug their car.

The problem is CONVERGENCE. That is to say, you have an oil pressure light warning and your car's engine is rumbling funny.

YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO FIX THIS BY HAVING YOUR TIRES ROTATED.

Do you not see the problem? You are changing things that have nothing to do with the problem!

The problem is CONVERGENCE.
The problem is CONVERGENCE.
The problem is CONVERGENCE.

Edited by Master Q, 11 July 2013 - 02:47 PM.

[FireSlade]

armyof1, on 11 July 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

I'm sorry but we're still talking 2.0 damage with no splash for a really short range weapon that always spreads damage. Your fears are just so terribly unfounded it's almost silly. SRMs at 2.0 won't even have half the damage potential they used to (due to splash used to damage multiple parts) before the March nerf, and back then people only had problems mainly with the SRMCat which is getting heat penalties worked in already. With every new map being bigger and long range fighting being clearly superior, you're worried about just making things at least a bit more even between long range and short range weaponry?

I will be the first to admit when I am wrong but until the buff goes through and the hit detection is fixed all I can go on is the past of what has been done. That being said Paul also mentions that the hit detection works better on larger mech and does not work as well with the smaller mechs. With the current scaling and the fact that some mediums run in the heavy's size range tells me that they will suffer the most because of their large size and less armor. I could be entirely wrong in this assumption and mediums may start being used in greater numbers again. Second this Max Alpha mechanic is not going to fix boating just what you can alpha. It is hard to hit the same spot on a mech .5 seconds apart, so it introduces a random inaccuracy. With SRMs though all you have to do is aim for center of mass and you hit so accuracy means very little. The fabled Splat Cat and the Stalker equivalent can run more than 3 SRM6s and not suffer a single penalty to heat (the same can be said about the 6PPC boats as long as they do not fire more than 2 PPCs every .5 sec) if they fire 2-3SRM6s then wait .5 sec then fire off the remaining SRM6s. How does the Max Alpha prevent that? Seem to me having to wait half a second to dissipate heat helps that design. Also back before splash was introduced the CAT-A1 was on the field more than Stalkers, running SSRMs and SRMs. And since there would be a ton of crying on the forum if they buff SRMs and not SSRMs saying that it is only two missile and that they are guided SRMs, expect them to get the buff too making the Splat Cat running SSRMs with their CT seeking missiles all the more dangerous. But then again my fears are unfounded....

Edited by FireSlade, 11 July 2013 - 02:51 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Great changes PGI, I say this now because I know I'm going to be complaining about something in the future.

SRM + damage (if implemented) is a needed bandaid until a permanent fix is applied, SRM are just too weak in their current state.
Damage at 100% heat = I love this (although I would like to see damage applied directly to the engine components, and actually have engine destruction mean something -5 HS, -X% movement)
Heat penalties for alpha strikes is another idea I like. I know people have their favorite builds, and "all the best players" using similar weapons with similar firing characteristics, but I like this approach to encouraging weapon diversity. The kind of mech builds that I remember from TT battletech.
I know the Awesome is a natural PPC boat, and the HBK-4P is a natural Md Laser boat, and I suspect we will be seeing chassis/variant based exceptions

[Monky]

A revisal to my earlier opinion - keep streaks at current damage until they begin to spread to other sections of mechs rather than all going CT.

[Jman5]

I'm going to repeat myself because this is important. Please buff SRMs, but...

It is absolutely critical that you do NOT buff Streak SRMs.

Balance will completely fall apart at the light v light level where whoever gets the first volley of streaks off wins 90% of the time. Furthermore, it's going to really hurt mediums who generally don't equip streaks and can't take the punishment a heavier chassis can. Lights could start owning mediums consistently. Especially with all the hit reg issues helping faster mechs.

If you buff streaks, you're going to have a mess on your hands and I don't want to be the scapegoated for this because I voted to buff SRMs.

Edited by Jman5, 11 July 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[armyof1]

FireSlade, on 11 July 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

I will be the first to admit when I am wrong but until the buff goes through and the hit detection is fixed all I can go on is the past of what has been done. That being said Paul also mentions that the hit detection works better on larger mech and does not work as well with the smaller mechs. With the current scaling and the fact that some mediums run in the heavy's size range tells me that they will suffer the most because of their large size and less armor. I could be entirely wrong in this assumption and mediums may start being used in greater numbers again. Second this Max Alpha mechanic is not going to fix boating just what you can alpha. It is hard to hit the same spot on a mech .5 seconds apart so it introduces a random inaccuracy. With SRMs though all you have to do is aim for center of mass and you hit so accuracy means very little. The fabled Splat Cat and the Stalker equivalent can run more than 3 SRM6s and not suffer a single penalty to heat (the same can be said about the 6PPC boats as long as they do not fire more than 2 PPCs every .5 sec) if they fire 2-3SRM6s then wait .5 sec then fire off the remaining SRM6s. How does the Max Alpha prevent that? Seem to me having to wait half a sec to dissipate heat helps that design. Also back before splash was introduced the CAT-A1 was on the field more than Stalkers running SSRMs and SRMs. And since there would be a ton of crying on the forum if they buff SRMs and not SSRMs saying that it is only two missile and that they are guided SRMs, expect them to get the buff too making the Splat Cat running SSRMs with their CT seeking missiles all the more dangerous. But then again my fears are unfounded....

Hit detection working worse for smaller mechs is true for all weapons not just SRMs. And you really don't consider how we're getting several large maps now that make boating a short-range weapon a lot less effective. And also the SRMcat won't even have half the firepower it used to, and have to run around avoiding ACs and PPCs for a long time to even get that close to the opponents. And even then your Seismic module will let you see any enemy getting within 400m of you, no more surprise rushes. What's with the you just have to aim centermass with SRMs anyway? SRMs are the hardest weapons to use already due to their slow travel speed, meaning you have to lead your shots a lot more than any other weapon on moving targets. And you still think SRMs will be the most powerful thing? Yes you are most certainly worrying over basically nothing.

Edited by armyof1, 11 July 2013 - 02:55 PM.

[MCXL]

I read this post an my heart sank...

Paul.

I thought the idea was to make the game more accessible, more readable, and generally better? I guess it does add player choice in that I can still choose to do a 45 damage pinpoint strike on a mech from 600+M, but if I do my PPC's might generate as much heat as ERPPC. Of course this is a really hard to communicate mechanic, that is compleely arbitrary and is only a soft discouragement.

What a great change, this will solve everything!

I really wish we could get a recoil system for the convergence somehow, or anything like it.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Master Q, on 11 July 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Repeating again.

THE PROBLEM IS CONVERGENCE.

Convergence is a problem, not the problem. It is also a more complicated issue than adjusting heat numbers.
Did you notice the new Pheonix Project mechs, and how spread out their lasers are? I'll give you 1 guess as to why that is. Many existing mechs have weapons stat stack on top of each (fireing out of the same barrel) other making your convergance fix inadequate until make another art pass on the existing mechs.