1084 replies to this topic

[Mahnmut]

I voted yes for SRM changes but only because there was another option missing form the poll:
- Yes, please do it, but revisit once hit detection issues are fixed.

Why not give us a poll for the heat fix?

My 2 cents for heat/convergance issues:

Revert PPC/ERPPC heat AND speed back to their original values.
- Heat change fixes boating without some overly complex system.
- Landing shots won't be so easy and will benifit lights who have it hard at the moment.
Remove arm/torso lock feature
- Convergance is an issue and this just made it worse
Look at other weapon specific changes for boating AC20/Gauss etc

[Lindonius]

hammerreborn, on 11 July 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

I'm genuinely curious.

Except you're not genuinely curious at all are you? You are in fact using a rhetorical trope in order for you to bait me into explaining to you that the 9ML 4P is now useless, so that you can then lecture me on how I should LTP the chassis and NOT use my already overly hot mediocre alpha and just spread my shots out instead. Or use a different build that doesn't boat medium lasers.

Edited by Lindonius, 11 July 2013 - 04:43 PM.

[Khobai]

Large Laser + 2 PPCs + Gauss = 100% circumvention with minimal loss of damage. This fix is just so bad... it doesnt fix the sniper metagame it just changes it from one problematic loadout to another.

[Nebelfeuer]

keith, on 11 July 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

this is not TT this is mechwarrior. i don't want 10 sec turns with dice rolls. i want my pin point shots, my skills to be shown. if i miss it because i had poor aim. this system forces u into a play style because of penalties. THAT IS WRONG. if i could go up behind paul and smack him upside the head and say bad, i would. this is a horrible system. has been said before and it being said again. PGI is being dumb if they go through with this.

How does this change prevent you from showing your skills? It does even give you more opportunity to do so since it wants you to aim and hit repeatedly instead of only once.
If you prefere the one big hit option it does not prevent that either it only encourages you to make sure your aim is good when doing it by making missing more painfully felt...

Edited by Nebelfeuer, 11 July 2013 - 04:43 PM.

[Lindonius]

FupDup, on 11 July 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Because it will have to stagger its already spread-out damage (beam duration combined with multiple groups after the change). Spread out damage is a big no-no.

hammerreborn, on 11 July 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

So? Use 3 small lasers and be better heat efficient. Christ, people will complain about everything.

See I saw through your ploy there didn't I Mr holier than thou.

[deforce]

hammerreborn, on 11 July 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

How is the hunchback 4P killed by this? I'm genuinely curious.

you fire 6 lasers, lights can do it better.
you fire 9 lasers, you get heat pentaly
you fire 6 lasers then 3 lasers, and you expose the shoulder long enough to get shot off REALLY fast. its really easy to take that shoulder off now as it is.

[hammerreborn]

Lindonius, on 11 July 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

See I saw through your ploy there didn't I Mr holier than thou.

No you didn't. Your position is as pointless as saying why can't i boat 6 PPCs/LLs my stalker is now useless.

Boating is boating. And it's getting handled accordingly. Stalkers I'm sure aren't going to be dead due to the ppc change and neither will hunchbacks.

[Nebelfeuer]

Khobai, on 11 July 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Large Laser + 2 PPCs + Gauss = 100% circumvention with minimal loss of damage. This fix is just so bad... it doesnt fix the sniper metagame it just changes it from one problematic loadout to another.

Only true for tagets standing still or moving towards or away from you. Other Movementpatterns make ppc and LL not converge very well.

[FupDup]

hammerreborn, on 11 July 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

So? Use 3 small lasers and be better heat efficient. Christ, people will complain about everything.

Hammer, please don't tell me that you've joined the white knight brigade as well?


WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE REAL HAMMER?

[Takony]

So now my AC40+2Mlas Jager becomes AC40+2 Slas+ 1 more DHS and my 3 PPC CTF 3D becomes a 2 PPC+Gauss 3D.
Okay. So what was the point again? At least SRM sees some love. So I can load the A1 with just the right srm6+4 combo, maybe add Artemis.

[hammerreborn]

FupDup, on 11 July 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

Hammer, please don't tell me that you've joined the white knight brigade as well?


WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE REAL HAMMER?

I've always kinda been on the white knight brigade (or does no one remember my like 30 page argument with 3 or 4 people in the ECM threads...)

But seriously? Nearly all the alpha caps on there is between 20-30 damage before the heat starts kicking in. In fact, the medium laser has the highest alpha boating potential out of every weapon effected (aside from the srm4s and 6s which will be highest if damage gets bumped to 2).

[Mokou]

MISERY/AS7-RS
2xERPPC
1xGAUSS
2xLL
???
PROFIT

Nope?

PS: Yay my DAKKADAKKA 4xAC/2 CTF-4X still DAKKADAKKA

Edited by Mokou, 11 July 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[Nebelfeuer]

Mokou, on 11 July 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

MISERY/AS7-RS
2xERPPC
1xGAUSS
2xLL
???
PROFIT

Nope?

Try firing that pinpoint at someone who is crossing your view left to right at 600m distance with one mousebutton.
True convergence changes would be better but it will still help

Edited by Nebelfeuer, 11 July 2013 - 04:55 PM.

[Chiun44]

Haven't read everything, so I'm sure someone else has similar thought:

A real fix might be to create a max power output available for energy weapons based upon both engine size and current speed. The faster you go, the less power available for energy weapons. The smaller engine rating, the less power. The slower you choose to move in a match, the more power. Ammunition based weapons are immune (barring charging Gauss coils?). You could rough out numbers based upon heat generated, but that heavily double penalizes ER PPC, which may be warranted, but I'm not sure having looked at any numbers.

Basically, each energy weapon would have a charging capacitor you'd have to fill before it could fire. Not exactly canon, but I don't recall 4 seconds recharge time being canon either. Run the numbers on the canon K2s and Awesome PPC stock loadouts and see how it translates to the flavor of the month highlander 732 with 3 PPC or 4 PPC stalker.

If knockdowns were in game, you could just say firing more than 'x' missiles or more than x pts of autocannons had a chance for the mech to tip over based upon pilot skill and gyro status

And I liked the mech knockdown rule in TT. Your mech takes a lot of damage in one phase, it could fall over.

Seems like Star Fleet Battles had the energy balance mechanic

Without doing something like the energy balance, I like Paul's post and the ideas, but have similar concern on just a total max LRM count. Definitely a step in the correct direction, though.

Edited by Chiun44, 12 July 2013 - 06:31 AM.

[KEYGETS]

I like this system... but one thing is missing: If you overheat there should be a chance that you destroy your own heatsinks. If this would be in the game all players would think twice before they shoot the next round of every weapon

[Lindonius]

hammerreborn, on 11 July 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

No you didn't.

Yes I did. I saw through you're "genuinely curious" veiled "LTP" comment and called you out on it. I never actually took the bait and it was in fact the other posters that did that you managed to give your teed up lecture about better heat management to.

It is hyperbole to be sure to say that the 4P is "dead" but they have certainly nerfed what was an already mediocre chassis to the point that almost nobody other than noobs who aren't aware of the system will play it.



HBK-4P(C)

[hammerreborn]

Lindonius, on 11 July 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

Yes I did. I saw through you're "genuinely curious" veiled "LTP" comment and called you out on it. I never actually took the bait and it was in fact the other posters that did that you managed to give your teed up lecture about better heat management to.

It is hyperbole to be sure to say that the 4P is "dead" but they have certainly nerfed what was an already mediocre chassis to the point that almost nobody other than noobs who aren't aware of the system will play it.



HBK-4P©

So...you agree with me that the 4P isn't dead? It wasn't even a L2P comment, it was, why the hell should mech a get to boat while mech b doesn't, for nearly the same alpha.

I get that medium lasers are worse than PPCs in terms of range/pinpoint but still. If you are nerfing high alphas a 45 is still damn high.

The way it's set up pretty much makes you make a balanced laser/missile or laser/ballistic build or suffer heat penalties...or boat guass, one of the two to get the extreme damage people are throwing about now.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is the large laser capping out at 2, for a insignificant 14 damage. Everything else is at a minimum 20 like I said, so you would think it would be 3.

Nevermind, its 18, still the lowest.

Edited by hammerreborn, 11 July 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[FupDup]

hammerreborn, on 11 July 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

I've always kinda been on the white knight brigade (or does no one remember my like 30 page argument with 3 or 4 people in the ECM threads...)

I never noticed, then. Do keep in mind though that you're knighting for people that don't care about your preferred play style/weight class (lights). In fact, they're probably going to keep their current pattern of doing nothing or making it worse.


Just something to ponder.

hammerreborn, on 11 July 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

http://i.imgur.com/dCUljda.jpg
But seriously? Nearly all the alpha caps on there is between 20-30 damage before the heat starts kicking in. In fact, the medium laser has the highest alpha boating potential out of every weapon effected (aside from the srm4s and 6s which will be highest if damage gets bumped to 2).

The alpha cap is just a poorly conceived band aid. It doesn't fix the underlying issues and is also easily avoided to boot (macros, 2 ERPPC + 1 Gauss, 2 Gauss + 1 ERPPC, etc.).

[Fitzbattleaxe]

Now that we have a test server, why not just try lowering heat caps and increasing dissipation? That way instead of some arbitrary, difficult to understand mechanic, you get the exact same mechanic you already have, just with slightly different numbers. Seems to me it would be trivial to implement and test, so where's the harm?

[Spirit of the Wolf]

Huh.

I already use 2 PPC and 2 ER PPC in my Awesome 8Q, so no change for me, really. I do it to mitigate heat issues, without the total loss of short-range damage.

Unfortunately, because now PGI is doing this heat-scale thing instead of listening to QQmerc's Homeless Bill, we're going to have people trying to get around this meta too.

With his design, there is no way to get around it. It affects everything.