1084 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Ardney, on 14 July 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Ok, haven't gotten through the whole thread yet but I can't help but post...

So far I've seen several people comment to the effect that "100% heat dmg threshold is a good idea". No. It isn't. In fact, it is the single most ridiculous change announced in Paul's entire post, and that's saying something. Mechs have always taken damage past 100% if...wait for it.....you didn't shutdown. Now that they will take damage even while shutdown, what's the point of that mechanic again? To force players to press an additional key? There is absolutely ZERO reason to allow auto shutdown now as the choice is simply between taking damage or taking damage while staying perfectly still.

Are you not aware that in Battletech, heat penalties start at a REALLY low heat threshold? Way, way lower than shutdown point? And that all the weapons and mechanics are balanced around that fact? Running hot in Battletech - below 100%, just hot - greatly reduces your accuracy and can even cause your ammunition to explode!

As to the shutdown, if you override the shutdown you'll take additional damage, as that's a separate mechanic. So, no, you probably don't want to override.

The point is that it's NOT ok to fire off an alpha when you're at 90% heat. That's exactly what this change is addressing. You can still fire - individual weapons, use chainfire, etc - just stay below 100 or if you peak past it and shutdown for just a second or so the damage you take will be minimal. Shutdown is still a useful safety mechanic as it mitigates the damage you take and prevents you from firing again while past 100%; also, it helps you cool faster (just moving generates heat in your mech).

This change makes high heat alphas very dangerous, and that in turn reduces the alpha strike issue. Making people space out there damage more extends mech Time To Kill and makes a better game for everyone, without artificially increasing armor/structure strength which causes it's own series of problems.

[Herald of Omega]

I think limiting PPCs and large lasers to 2 is a bit too low.
The Awesome comes stock with 3 PPCs and should be able to fire them without extra penalties.
3 sounds more reasonable.
3 large lasers = 27 damage, 6 medium lasers = 30 damage.

Start the massive penalties at 4 large weapons.
The shake-effect has already massively reduced poptarting anyway, I don't think we should overreact and massively nerf everything.

[Kmieciu]

SRM damage was reduced from 2.5 to 1.5, and now it's going back to 2.0.

Will the SRM be nearly as deadly as before? Nope.

Because the explosion radius was shrunk from 4.5 meters to 0.05 meters. The explosion radius is now 90 times smaller than during the reign of the splatcat.

I'll swap 1 ERPPC for 3 SRM4 just to try the new values, but I still prefer 45 pinpoint alpha @ 540 meters over 35 pinpoint alpha + 24 damage @270 meters that won't even register on small mechs.

[Victor Morson]

Herald of Omega, on 14 July 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

I think limiting PPCs and large lasers to 2 is a bit too low.
The Awesome comes stock with 3 PPCs and should be able to fire them without extra penalties.
3 sounds more reasonable.
3 large lasers = 27 damage, 6 medium lasers = 30 damage.

Start the massive penalties at 4 large weapons.
The shake-effect has already massively reduced poptarting anyway, I don't think we should overreact and massively nerf everything.

Or, you know, fix mechlab or the weapons instead of screwing around with this stupidity at all.

I still think this sums up the reaction to every single thing Paul said in this update in 5 seconds:

[Dirkdaring]

So from reading some of these thread, people want convergence changed so it's not pin-point acurate and it 'spreads' around? Heck no. I've gotten *extremely* good ay hitting light mechs going full speed over 600m from me, especially on my gausscat. The moment thats changed I uninstall. My gauss damn well better go right down the crosshairs of where I fire it and not off on some stupid random tangent.

[Sephlock]

^ I hope I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that unless there is a horrendous outcry along the lines of what there was when PTW coolant was announced, they are going ahead with this system, so some of us are trying to work within the confines of that system so that it won't be quite so bad...

*Err, that was @ Victor Morson*

Edited by Sephlock, 14 July 2013 - 03:25 PM.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

arghmace, on 14 July 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Arm lock makes all your weapons hit the exact same spot. Pin point damage wasn't nearly as big a problem earlier when arm lock was not present.

Thankyou.

[Victor Morson]

Arm Lock is a horrendous idea. It teaches newbies bad habits, while allowing the more experienced players to tap one button to instantly converge. The Highlander would not be half as powerful - or the 3D - if they had to snipe without arm lock.

It's a training wheels feature that turned into a sniper easy mode. Also one of the things I initially loved about MW:O was having arm weapons matter. A build could be good or bad depending on if the weapons were in the right location and I couldn't just press a button to ignore all of that.

Edited by Victor Morson, 14 July 2013 - 03:53 PM.

[Lightfoot]

After playing some matches today and seeing several 2xAC20 Jags in each game I realized that not only will this coming nerf not weaken that config, it will buff it because it will be the only alpha mech that still works.

After thinking about that I determined that you won't be able to achieve balance by nerfing Battletech's normal settings. Normally in MechWarrior 2x AC20s is nothing strange or super-powered, unless you nerf all the Energy weapons and Missiles as has been and is continuing to be done.

PGI needs to reverse course, make all the weapons work "Battletech" normally so they counter each other again, and just make the mechs tougher. More armor? Lower the global damage integer? Overlap the hitboxes so players don't, "get cored" so easily. All possible solutions.

MWO can't even support a normal Awesome energy config (AWS-9M) due to overheat and you are laying on even more overheat nerfs. Seems like here we go again, more heat nerfs that never worked before. Why would they now?

The Clans will need all new heat nerfs that also won't work. Just saying if the mechs were tougher you could allow all the weapons and heatsinks to function normally and you wouldn't be making the AC20 into some MWO meta-game.

The only way to balance gameplay is to keep the weapons working in an equal balance, not just keep leaning on new heat nerfs. You are changing MechWarrior into Gunwarrior because Ballistics are mostly immune to overheat and they will continue to be that way. That is their core strength.

Edited by Lightfoot, 14 July 2013 - 04:11 PM.

[Lootee]

Victor Morson, on 14 July 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

The Highlander would not be half as powerful - or the 3D - if they had to snipe without arm lock.

Actually it wouldn't affect the 3D much at all if they removed arm lock. Because it has 2 energy and 1 ballistic all in the torsos. The arms also have 2 energy + 1 ballistic, but a PPC and gauss won't both fit in the right arm.

So arm lock or not, someone could still fit 2 PPC + a gauss in the torsos for perfect convergence. They wouldn't be able to run an XL engine at the same time, but you wouldn't want one of those in there with the gauss rifle anyway.

And as noted previously, this weapon combination neatly gets around the phantom heat nerf too.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 14 July 2013 - 05:20 PM.

[Blimie]

SOoooooo.... Let me get this straight.... I can fire 28 srms (4 srm 4 and 2 srm 6) at once with no heat penalty but only 8 missiles using SRM 2's or streaks before heat build up? Furthermore, 6 LRM 10's or 5 LRM 20's is fine, but only 2 LRM 15's? These do all fire the same ammo right? Also any number of auto cannons together (IE... 6 AC 2 macro fire builds) is fine but only 1 AC 20? Does this make any sense to anyone?

[Clasbyte]

Yeah we gonna invent the wheel!!! Oh wait..... doh!

PPC? with 5 second rof? Divide the TT values by 2, here you go, good starting place for balancing.

+1 for Blimie

[Wintersdark]

Victor Morson, on 14 July 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Arm Lock is a horrendous idea. It teaches newbies bad habits, while allowing the more experienced players to tap one button to instantly converge. The Highlander would not be half as powerful - or the 3D - if they had to snipe without arm lock.

It's a training wheels feature that turned into a sniper easy mode. Also one of the things I initially loved about MW:O was having arm weapons matter. A build could be good or bad depending on if the weapons were in the right location and I couldn't just press a button to ignore all of that.

What? Arm lock is 100% disadvantage to a skilled player. Sure it helps newbies, but once you know what you're doing it doesn't help at all. It doesn't speed your torso, it only slows and limits your arms.

I have all the highlanders, snipe with them all the time, never use arm lock at all and have no trouble with convergence. You just aim where you want, fire when the torso catches up; or fire your arm weapons first and torso weapons once they line up.


Arm lock isnt the devil here, the problem would exist regardless. Mind you, I wish they didn't implement it at all too, or at least didn't make it the default. Poor newbies never learn how badly they are gimping themselves.

[Ardney]

Wintersdark, on 14 July 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

As to the shutdown, if you override the shutdown you'll take additional damage, as that's a separate mechanic. So, no, you probably don't want to override.

The point is that it's NOT ok to fire off an alpha when you're at 90% heat. That's exactly what this change is addressing. You can still fire - individual weapons, use chainfire, etc - just stay below 100 or if you peak past it and shutdown for just a second or so the damage you take will be minimal. Shutdown is still a useful safety mechanic as it mitigates the damage you take and prevents you from firing again while past 100%; also, it helps you cool faster (just moving generates heat in your mech).

Prior to this change shutdown actually prevented damage (below 120% heat) so it still had a purpose. After this change it will have no purpose. While it's true that having active throttle generates heat it is also true that merely pressing 'X' allows you to eliminate that source of heat while still allowing for torso twisting.

I repeat, auto shutdown will now serve NO useful purpose. Should you breach the 100% heat threshold there is no scenario where shutting down your mech confers any appreciable advantage to you. Override is your best solution at all times. And as such, it renders the auto shutdown mechanic not only useless, but an active hindrance to the pilot's success..

[Wintersdark]

Ardney, on 14 July 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

Prior to this change shutdown actually prevented damage (below 120% heat) so it still had a purpose. After this change it will have no purpose. While it's true that having active throttle generates heat it is also true that merely pressing 'X' allows you to eliminate that source of heat while still allowing for torso twisting.

This is incorrect.

The damage you take from being over 120% heat (soon to be 100%) is NOT the same mechanic as the damage you take for being over 100% heat and overriding shutdown. They are separate and additive. You take FAR more damage when overriding shutdown.

Also, movement damage isn't the only source of heat. Just being powered up generates heat - while shut down, without that added "powered up" heat your mech dissipates heat faster, so you get below 100% faster and thus take substantially less damage.

Quote

I repeat, auto shutdown will now serve NO useful purpose. Should you breach the 100% heat threshold there is no scenario where shutting down your mech confers any appreciable advantage to you. Override is your best solution at all times. And as such, it renders the auto shutdown mechanic not only useless, but an active hindrance to the pilot's success..

So, overriding, and taking more CT damage per second, for a longer time, is better than shutting down and taking less damage per second for a shorter time? Maybe you should think this through again.

[Zankar]

Wintersdark, on 14 July 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

What? Arm lock is 100% disadvantage to a skilled player. Sure it helps newbies, but once you know what you're doing it doesn't help at all. It doesn't speed your torso, it only slows and limits your arms.

I have all the highlanders, snipe with them all the time, never use arm lock at all and have no trouble with convergence. You just aim where you want, fire when the torso catches up; or fire your arm weapons first and torso weapons once they line up.


Arm lock isnt the devil here, the problem would exist regardless. Mind you, I wish they didn't implement it at all too, or at least didn't make it the default. Poor newbies never learn how badly they are gimping themselves.

100% Right.

Arm lock is not a problem in in way, shape, or form. All it does is makes you have one "turret" instead of two. Making it steadier and easier to aim because of the slower traverse speed of the torso, but also making you get your some of your guns on the target slower. I personly run with it on but I also have my pinky finger sitting on the shift key so when i need to I can move my arms, but i also only own a CPLT-A1 and a CPLT-K2 so i only have vertical movement anyways and the A1 is LRMs but i am workign on getting a HGN-733C.

Edited by Zankar, 14 July 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[Gozer]

I am SOOOO looking forward to heat changes and actually doing damage for going over your heat limits. So my actual heat management skills actually matter!

[DisasterMedic]

e: rehosted on imgur

Edited by DisasterMedic, 14 July 2013 - 08:29 PM.

[Erata]

DisasterMedic, on 14 July 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

I've run out of my daily allotment of Likes today.

Edit: So is there any chance of armor/internal double-doubling happening???

Edited by Erata, 14 July 2013 - 08:14 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Wintersdark, on 14 July 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

What? Arm lock is 100% disadvantage to a skilled player. Sure it helps newbies, but once you know what you're doing it doesn't help at all. It doesn't speed your torso, it only slows and limits your arms.

Zankar, on 14 July 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

100% Right.

Arm lock is not a problem in in way, shape, or form. All it does is makes you have one "turret" instead of two. Making it steadier and easier to aim because of the slower traverse speed of the torso, but also making you get your some of your guns on the target slower. I personly run with it on but I also have my pinky finger sitting on the shift key so when i need to I can move my arms, but i also only own a CPLT-A1 and a CPLT-K2 so i only have vertical movement anyways and the A1 is LRMs but i am workign on getting a HGN-733C.

You are both 100% entirely wrong; but I figure you might not be aware of how everyone uses (abuses) it.

Effectively this is how it really works: On most variants you'll want the menu toggle OFF. When you line up a shot with your arm reticle, you press and hold the arm lock key and BAM - instantly, your torso will snap to your gun arms and maintain a 1:1 lock.

Without arm lock, the torso takes a while to watch up and you need to hover over something for a half second to line up the torso/arm guns, greatly reducing your ability to snipe effectively. With arm lock it's completely 100% accurate convergence between the two.

If you're not using it already, try it out and report back. Simply take a meta sniper, aim at the target you want (with your arms) and enable arm lock (default: left shift). Then come back and tell me it's worthless.

Notably, it SHOULD be as you describe - a training wheel handicap - but that's just not what it is because they lazily made it instant 1:1 locking, rather than just limiting your range of arm motion.

EDIT: Some people simply leave it enabled all the time, and use the shift to toggle out - this is helpful with 'mechs like the 3D, where you want to converge your arm and torso 99% of the time.

Edited by Victor Morson, 14 July 2013 - 08:24 PM.