1084 replies to this topic

[Inhibition]

new heat system is utter trash because it didn't and doesn't accomplish its goal while
creating MASSIVE nerfs to so many other builds
yes, I am frustrated that idea is even thought of being patched into the game.

Kyocera, on 12 July 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

Many of you complaining about the 4P© and the alpha penalties are simply clueless and pathetic. You obviously don't have the skill to chain fire and hold the reticle on target, or even build an efficient mech for that matter. You've relied on high pinpoint alphas for so long you just don't have a clue.

So now it's my turn to say "adapt or die" like the PPCwarriors say to us none PPC adopters. Unfortunately I've already adapted and have been for some time, playing the game how it should be played.

Aren't you a bit "clueless and pathetic" yourself? The nerf will affect a broad range of builds,
not just the PPC's. People complain about PPC's, not medium lasers or SRM2's.

Chainfire exposes torso. Unlike your highlander, a 4P doesn't have enough armor and its hunch is way too
susceptible to expose torso to chainfire. Knowing how you play, you probably would
have been food for a decent PPC boater

Edited by Inhibition, 12 July 2013 - 05:21 AM.

[Taren Avalis]

Jakob Knight, on 12 July 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

Save that some of us only have two-button mouse controllers, and cannot effectively use more than two weapons groups. Should we then be penalized because we have effective designs that are adapted to this? Also, why should a mech like a HBK-4P, which is -designed- to alpha strike with it's Medium Lasers (you don't get into that close range to slowly wittle away at the target in a medium mech) be forced to only use half its loadout simply because someone cried that it wasn't fair it could? How does this prevent someone from simply writing a script to fire the weapons groups 0.002 seconds apart, satisfying the requirement that they 'not be fired together' while penalizing people not using scripts to achieve the same effect?

The problem is that these rules are coming -after- the design rules were set and applied in-game, soley because of personal feelings that mechs like the AWS-8Q, HBK-4P, and BLR-1G should not exist. They are a change instituted after agreed-upon contruction rules were in place, and -all such builds were legitimately built within the system agreed upon-, purely because someone thought they worked too well -within the accepted game system-. To add to the problems, equal-effect weapons (PPC and AC/10) are not equally penalized, destroying any claim this is about high-effect weaponry, and opening the entire concept to charges of being based on personal bias on the the part of some devs and players who rely on the devs to solve their problems instead of doing it themselves (an extention and obscuration of the 'gausscat' argument that still rages in some player's offended sensibilities).

To wit, this is the equivilant of PGI standing at the platform and telling the players "I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it further". While they can do this, and nothing we do can stop them, there is a reason why everyone knows that line is something wrong. Especially when the same people are effectively giving passes to one weapon type and not to an identically-effective or less-effective weapon system.

Finally, I will note that the heat system in place in MWO is -already- far harsher than that for which the original designs were constructed in. In the original rules, a BLR-1G could fire 5 medium lasers and stay at full speed while -never- generating heat, whereas in MWO this same mech would overheat very quickly. This change simply encourages even more customization specialization to take advantage of the new rules, and people will simply switch to the next 'best configuration', and you'll be right back where we are now with people claiming the devs need to do something to knock those designs out of the game too. It never ends once you start bending your own rules to appease people, especially when it is done with obvious inequality and lack of universal standards.

You used a lot of words there to say you don't like the idea of a company trying to balance its game. They put a system in place. They're changing it because people abused it. If the changes don't work - we're still in Beta. They can change it again. I have yet to play an online game that was perfectly balanced. They can't control things like what mouse you choose to use, or who has a faster computer or internet connection, and never will be able to.

Like it or not, no online game will ever be balanced.

That being said, I'd rather see other weapon damage reduced than SRM's raised to two. I don't care what the TT values are, it's too easy to die in this game right now as is, especially if you're in an assault mech. You're just adding one more way to blow away a big target in a few shots, by buffing a weapon with low weight requirements that's easily carried in multiples on any size mech.

[arghmace]

Kyocera, on 12 July 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

Many of you complaining about the 4P© and the alpha penalties are simply clueless and pathetic. You obviously don't have the skill to chain fire and hold the reticle on target, or even build an efficient mech for that matter. You've relied on high pinpoint alphas for so long you just don't have a clue.

No, it's you that is clueless making assumptions like that about other players. I don't play pinpoint alpha monsters either and still I oppose this change. And if you've actually read this thread, it's obvious that this is not the reason people are against this. On the contrary, people are against this change because it still allows them to do huge pinpoint alpha. This doesn't help against that, only adds arbitrary complexity to the system. There would be many better options to address this issue.

Edited by arghmace, 12 July 2013 - 05:19 AM.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

arghmace, on 12 July 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

I say this again. Both armor and internal structure are already doubled. Making them 4 times bigger than TT and previous MW titles would be insanity. If we have a problem of mechs dying too fast, then we have to curb the DPS by some means, not by increasing mech durability AGAIN.

Wrong. Wrong on so many levels it is hilarious.
First, this isn't table top. Get that idea out of your head right now. The armor values in this game need to reflect those needed for a first person shooter where even the worst player hits what he is aiming at 80% of the time.

Second. The lack of DPS is actually the problem. High Alpha mechs do very good burst damage for about 12 seconds. Then their DPS drops to nothing because they need to cool down. Mechs like Triple UAC5 actually have much higher DPS than the classic 3xPPC+Gauss mech after 12 seconds.

High Alpha mechs cannot maintain their DPS for very long. They begin to overhead after 3-4 alpha-strikes. They succeed by killing their target faster than the target can close the distance into brawling range. If the brawling weapons were not total garbage, and mechs had more armor/internals, brawling mechs could survive closing the distance into brawling range and simply out-DPS the bust damage boats.

The boating "Fix" does nothing to actually prevent players from using as much high burst damage as possible because the armor values are low enough where you can kill or cripple the target before it has a chance to get into brawling range. Autocannons and SRMs need to be the brawlers best friend, with long, sustained DPS at lower heat than the long range energy weapons. However in order for that to happen brawlers need to survive closing the distance with the burst damage snipers.

Edited by Eldragon, 12 July 2013 - 05:22 AM.

[Snowcrow]

I really like what is happening. Looking forward to the patch.

[arghmace]

Eldragon, on 12 July 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

Second. The lack of DPS is actually the problem.

I should've been more precise. I didn't mean dps over long time but burst dps. If PPC, Gauss, AC20 had longer cool downs and heat cap would be about half of what it is now, these weapons couldn't shred an enemy mech within a couple of seconds.

[Lonestar1771]

PanzerMagier, on 12 July 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

I think this is relevant:

Hard to stop boating when a mech was designed to boat. Exactly why this system is stupid and Paul should feel bad for even thinking this would work.

[Tarzilman]

What really sucks in this game is the stupid kindergarden community. Now I see, some of your aren't really pissed of because of the new heat penalty. You are pissed of, because PGI didn't use your OWN ideas, you spent so much time for writing them down in several threads.
You all should read Paul's announcement again and read it closely, every single word again. It's a process. The problem will not be done with the next Patch.
Now **** and play the game or PLEASE uninstall it and never come back. It's so annoying to read all your baby-cries in this thread...

[arkani]

a simpler solution : http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/126689-heat-penaltie-alternative/page__p__2547834#entry2547834

[keith]

Kyocera, on 12 July 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

Many of you complaining about the 4P© and the alpha penalties are simply clueless and pathetic. You obviously don't have the skill to chain fire and hold the reticle on target, or even build an efficient mech for that matter. You've relied on high pinpoint alphas for so long you just don't have a clue.

My HGN-HM has 1x Gauss 3x LL and I chain the LL's, never alpha them. This is so I can have a constant stream of fire laid down on my opponent with minimal gaps between firing. Its proficiencies are maxed and I never overheat apart from the caustic caldera and tourmaline when I occasionally have to wait a few seconds to cool off.

So all you need to do is adapt your firing pattern and you'll actually find yourself doing better with less HPS and more sustained DPS over time.

So now it's my turn to say "adapt or die" like the PPCwarriors say to us none PPC adopters. Unfortunately I've already adapted and have been for some time, playing the game how it should be played.

by chaining your 3 ll u leave your self in the open for around 3 secs. now thats 3 sec in the open for 12 mechs to shot at ya. sounds a bit silly? this is a dirty bandaid fix, 1 that might be a temp fix to help stop ppc boats but nothing more. paul is not seeing the big picture in balancing the game. neither is most of the white knight on the forum. this is just 1 more nail in MWO

[3rdworld]

keith, on 12 July 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

by chaining your 3 ll u leave your self in the open for around 3 secs. now thats 3 sec in the open for 12 mechs to shot at ya. sounds a bit silly? this is a dirty bandaid fix, 1 that might be a temp fix to help stop ppc boats but nothing more. paul is not seeing the big picture in balancing the game. neither is most of the white knight on the forum. this is just 1 more nail in MWO

Not only exposing yourself, but your torso will need to be facing me the whole time.

[Lonestar1771]

Tarzilman, on 12 July 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

What really sucks in this game is the stupid kindergarden community. Now I see, some of your aren't really pissed of because of the new heat penalty. You are pissed of, because PGI didn't use your OWN ideas, you spent so much time for writing them down in several threads.
You all should read Paul's announcement again and read it closely, every single word again. It's a process. The problem will not be done with the next Patch.
Now **** and play the game or PLEASE uninstall it and never come back. It's so annoying to read all your baby-cries in this thread...

Well now.... someone is feeling fat and sassy!

[Taren Avalis]

Eldragon, on 12 July 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

Wrong. Wrong on so many levels it is hilarious.
First, this isn't table top. Get that idea out of your head right now. The armor values in this game need to reflect those needed for a first person shooter where even the worst player hits what he is aiming at 80% of the time.

Not sure how much of the rest of your post I agree with, but this part 100%. I even come from a TT background myself, and if the community here doesn't start wrapping their head around the fact that this game isn't table-top, the hardcore fanbois are going to kill the playerbase more than anything else. PGI wont' care, because we'll keep buying mechs off them for love of the universe, but the truth is adhering too closely to table-top can make this game unenjoyable on so many levels. This is a FPS where you're moving in slow motion. As you said, aiming is ridiculously easy, and any half intelligent player will rotate their weapons with a half second differential and kill just as quickly as always. It won't be one shot, but the difference will be negligible.

That said, I'm still willing to give the changes a chance before I get ********. That's why they call this testing.

[General Taskeen]

The entirety of the heat system is a mess and people need to realize this. When the developers started increasing the fire rates to 3x, the numbers for damage and heat were not abstracted correctly, thus most weapons that were considered heat neutral or certain Mechs with simply single heat sinks is not even possible. An AC/2, for example, would have never over heated with even 2 AC/2's, but in the game it requires DHS just to remain relevant. This is completely backwards.

From the beginning, the fixed heat thresholds and higher disappation rates for heat sinks should have been adopted, which has been a staple of every Mech Warrior game ever, which is a derived balance measure from TT. Most of the 'high alpha' occurs, because the heat thresholds can be raised with how heat sinks are currently programmed. With double heat sinks you can gain a significant advantage by raising that threshold higher making SHS completely irrelevant, except in extremely limited cases.

Heat Boat Penalities is a reactionary solution, instead of addressing the core issues of the way heat sinks are currently implemented. Fixed heat threshold design has been a staple of every Mech Warrior game, and while not always perfect, can be improved and was improved in each iteration of Mech Warrior, which may include abstracting all weapon damage and their HPS. MWO is trying to re-invent the wheel, but its not working and needs revolutionary and more interesting heat penalties that have rarely been introduced in Mech titles, except for Hud distortion in MW3/4, and over-all heatsink and Mech damage in MW:LL.

Heat Boat Penalilities only hurt specific designs that did boat weapons, like assaults with 2 AC/20's (King Crab) or Awesomes with PPC's, Jagermechs with multiple small AC calibers, smaller Mechs that boat lasers, etc.

Conclusion:

- A revamp of heat sink design is needed
- Adapt heat penalties from MW3/4/LL (hud distortion, heat sink damage, armor degradation (before internals), etc.)
- Include new never before seen changes, such as: slowing your mech down gradually depending on heat levels, slowing down pin-point accuracy, ammo cook off's, etc.)

Edited by General Taskeen, 12 July 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[Nulnoil]

PanzerMagier, on 12 July 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

I think this is relevant:

Splatcat at this moment is very hot config. 3 alphas and welcome alpha-shtdwn-alpha-shtdwn mode, which is suicide for mech with xl. With new heat penalties 6*srm6 will be totally useless config.

Edited by Daumantas Galland, 12 July 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[Mogney]

Another simple way to make long range sniping with 60 points alpha strikes harder is to make it harder to aim the darn thing.

You could make that red box that goes around your target kind of hover and rotate while it slowly over 2 or 3 seconds locks in on the target and becomes centered, which of course only happens if that mech is stationary. If its in motion it should never lock in. Thus making it much harder to aim when doing long range sniping.

[Milocinia]

Ok I'll forget all about my 2.5 k/d Highlander (which was as high as 3.0 at one time) with which I've stuck with that same 1x gauss 3x LL configuration since buying it. It's the mech I have most success in and I have a range of mechs including high alphas, boats and an AC/40 Jager (my 2nd highest k/d).

By forcing you out of alphas and into controlled or chain firing, it also has the added effect of nerfing convergence in a sense unless your target is stationary. If they're stationary then that's entirely their own fault.

I'm honestly at a loss to understand why this alpha heat penalty should be a problem for anyone, seeing as you're all so smart to be able to "adapt" to changing game conditions. For the first time in a very long while I'm with PGI on this one.

[Kaldor]

I am hopeful that this change will help things back into balance.

I dont think its going to be the perfect solution, but I think its a start. I would still like to see heat cap dropped down, and dissipation increased. Those that truly use the chain-fire mechanic, not a macro, also should see some real breaks on heat, not this alpha 4 lasers for 25% heat, or chainfire 4 lasers for 23% heat system that we have now.

SRMs need to get back to 2 damage like yesterday and should be included in the next patch. The penalties in place will help check the A1s with 6 SRM6's from alphaing everything into the ground.

Still no idea on SSRMs possibly going to 2 damage? SSRMs should have a lower damage due to skill being a lower factor. Clan versions of SSRMs will be game changing and they may as well put the framework in place to prevent mass boating of clan missiles in general.

I still think PPCs need to go back to 10 and 15. Honestly, leaving them at current heat still makes them very powerful, and will not really change anything. 2 PPCs and a gauss will still be a great build under this system and will still rule the day.

Those that question the penalty for LRMs. Is it really that hard to shoot a second volley of guided missiles a 1/2 second later? LRMs are still effectively broken as they are a CT seeking weapon, not an AOE weapon as they once were and as they shoudl be in canon. Once again, look at incoming clan LRMs as I pointed out a little ways up.

Why are large lasers set to 2 before extra heat kicks in? They are still a high skill weapon with a long beam duration. I would suggest 3 LLs before heat penalties. The 100% heat cap damage factor will control boating on them.

Medium lasers at 6 count should be OK. Not too many mechs can even mount more than 6.

I personally hate AC20 builds like a 40Jager. They are like rats. Its a r_tard mode simple build in spite of its inherent penalties with the weapon taking even less skill than a PPC build at 500m+. Thank you for putting a 1 cap on the penalties. It should help push people more toward a balanced build.

I am interested on how they plan on handling gauss? This will be the fall back weapon as heat is not a factor.

Constructive non trolling post from me for a change....

[Gh0strid3r]

Guys guys guys. You should all know that heat penalties are useful to only a certain degree.

1. DIG the 100% max heat penalty before incurring damage.
2. PPC's should* be penalized more for heat but not by much.

The 2 points above will not eliminate the boating issue for PPC's. What will however is a simple solution: increase the slot requirements for the PPC's. As it stands, ER and regular PPC's take up 3 slots on a mech. Double that to 6 and you'll see changes. Increase the tonnage by 1 or even 2 and you'll eliminate this problem completely.

I'm not sure why heat is a consistent discussion on solving these issues. Forget tabletop, most people will forgive and forget if it means the elimination of these PPC boating tactics. If you're reading this PGI, I would at least CONSIDER this resolution more carefully. Heat penalties will not eliminate PPC boating. Thats what weapon grouping and chain firing is for!

Think about it this way guys. Why do you think people don't boat AC5's and 10's in this game? It sure as hell isn't because of the heat I tell ya.

Regards,

[MustrumRidcully]

Funny thing just comes to my mind.

Why didn't they go with a lower heat capacity? Because it would also affect other mech that weren't a problem.
Now we get a heat penalty system... and it affects other mechs that weren't a problem.

And unlike the "lower the heat cap" fraction's idea, this doesn't come even with something compensating. The "lower the heat cap" faction idea also is the "increase heat dissipation".

Though of course, the problem would still remain - precisely applied large damage quantities via boating. It's just that most builds like this are heat-limited. But not all are. Like Gauss-based builds. And does this heat penalty system affect the Gauss?
Nope.