1084 replies to this topic

[Gierling]

I fundamentally believe that all of this is wasted effort surrounding a reluctance to admit that the initial changes to the PPC reducing it's heat were a mistake. For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about they reduced the PPC's heat and increased the projectile speed because too few people were using them with Tabletop values.

Just as you will not see a politician admit that a initiative has failed, PGI seems reluctant to "take back" something that they did.

So now in much the same way that politician build a new misguided initiative around an earlier failed initiative PGI seems to be placing a new misguided balancing factor around an earlier balancing mistake.

Just admit that reducing PPC heat before hit registration was working correctly was a mistake, and dial it back.

[NTDFMaverick]

Absolutely ridiculous. You have got to be absolutely kidding me. Instead of attacking the root cause of the problems in the game right now.... the PPC's attributes... they are instead effectively nerfing every weapon, and every mech build, to significant degrees.

I see other people also acknowledging that there was a point months ago when no one was using the PPC, and the Devs boosted both its heat efficiency and projectile speed considerably.

Can we not dial back these buffs to some degree... at least as a starting point? Isn't that a much more sensible approach rather than fundamentally changing the game, again, two months out from its "release date?"

Edited by NTDFMaverick, 12 July 2013 - 07:14 PM.

[Ningyo]

OK only read maybe 1/3 of this thread lol it has a lot of replies.

First on SRMs sure go ahead and change the damage to 2, might as well. Hit recognition affects ALL weapons now, so as soon as you find the bugs in it and make it work properly ALL weapons will need rebalanced. And unless it was programmed really badly you just need to change the value of one global variable, or a number in some database somewhere, so it should only take a couple minutes.

Second heat damage caused at over 100%, this sounds like you did it about right. It would probably be better to add some minor penalties starting at 20 below max heat like reduction to movement speed and turning, but at least this is a step in the right direction. (also you should rework double/single heatsinks so both have a reason to exist, many decent ideas on how on forums)

OK now onto the real issue the stacking heat penalties for multiple weapons.

OMG FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This has been stated by so many players by now how completely useless this is, not only that its actually bad.

PROs:
---following OP mechs are nerfed significantly
6 PPC stalker is dead and gone
4 PPC stalker (after ERPPC and PPC are merged) is gone
Gauss + 4PPC Atlas RS is gone

CONs:
---has little to no effect on (these should have a 0-5 heat penalty)
Gauss + 3 PPC highlander, atlas, misery, dragon slayer
Gauss + 2 PPC about 15 mechs
AC/40 jagger/cat
Splat Cat (change 3 SRM6 to SRM4 big deal lol)
---massively nerfs some mechs that come stock or do not need nerfed
stock awesome and hunchback variants
blackjack
---Nerfs multiple of the most balanced weapons you presently have
Large Laser
Medium Laser
and even some underpowered ones, seriously a limit on SRM 2? are you planning to add a heat penalty for multiple flamers, or MG or TAG too?
---adds a layer of complexity that will either require massive programming to warn players of, or will be hidden from players thus screwing over new players or anyone else that has not read this. (You are programming in a warning whenever someone buys an awesome, or puts too many of the same weapon on a mech right, you know a little pop-up window showing the heat effects? Or at least modifying every weapons data readout to show these effects?)
---Increases difficulty in balancing weapons as another arbitrary statistic will need balanced if you ever get around to fixing the core issues.


WHAT NEEDS DONE TO BALANCE WEAPONS / MECHS

---Heat penalties need adjusted (you are halfway there on this as mentioned above some minor penalties and a heatsink rework)
I suggest making double heatsinks do 2 heat dissipation both inside and out of engine, but only 1 heat threshold inside and out of engine this gives them both advantages and disadvantages over SHS. AND change pilot skills to 0.075 / 0.1 per heatsink instead of 7.5 / 10% (this closes the gap between SHS and DHS a tiny bit more)

---Pinpoint Alpha needs addressed
Either change convergence http://mwomercs.com/...49#entry2492549 this thread covers most convergence methods and has links to some of the other threads with well thought out concepts.
OR reduce ability to fire multiple weapons at the same time (In TT even an alphastrike is over a 10 second timespan and each weapon rolls to hit separately) many threads including this one have ideas showing how to do this

---Fix Hit recognition:
This like all bugs can be difficult to track down, GOOD LUCK and glad you are working on it!

---Make game modes that give more significant uses for scouting or other roles (this will make it so you can have non-combat oriented balance techniques so a light could be worth bringing over an assault even if the assault would win in a straight up fight)

---Modify some mech sizes
many are just too large (trebuchet can be mistaken for a highlander) or small (spider is smaller than a commando, stalker is smaller than a catapult)


Once some or all of these are fixed with pinpoint alpha being the most important, you can start tweaking numbers to get the balance right. Without most of these though you will likely never be able to balance anything.


And please read and listen to some of your player base, many have said exactly what will happen when you implement things and are right consistently. Does not mean you won't sometimes know something they don't about the program that will make something work, but when you have vast percentages of your player base give a huge outcry about something you should at least think a little about it and reconsider going forward with it.

Best of luck, and hope you have time to remove this and come up with a solution before launch just don't take too long.

Edited by Ningyo, 12 July 2013 - 10:04 PM.

[Lonestar1771]

Rubidiy, on 12 July 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Lonestar1771
please leave it to your fellow crabs. Just say it out loud "I have no skill at all, so my only hope is in OP 'mechs". This thing occurs in any multiplayer. So stop complaining and don't fool yourself.
The reason behind blaming players who abuse OP weapons and mechs is that Mechwarrior game exists only when all weapon types and 'mech classes are balanced. Todays PPC boating is not a Mechwarrior. It's more like a very slow and stupid counter strike game.

Don't get me wrong, I want a balanced game Tarzilman or whatever his name is, is just spouting nonsense blaming players for the imbalance when thus far the game has been designed with the imbalance and players are just playing the way the game has been designed. Blame the devs for crappy desing, not players for using what is given to them..

[Renthrak]

Congratulations, you've decided to open Pandora's Box.

Arbitrary limits on the number of the same weapon fired within 0.5 seconds WILL NOT FIX THE GAME. This will TEMPORARILY kill the 6xPPC Stalker builds, until someone figures out that mounting 3 pairs of different large energy weapons will still obliterate assault 'Mechs in a couple Alpha Strikes, or that 3x SRM6 and 3x SRM4 is still a shotgun-of-doom, and then we're back where we started.

All you're doing is making more work for yourselves, because you will be playing whack-a-mole with mixed-weapon Alpha Strike builds until the end of time. I DO NOT CARE how much your internal testers love this idea. They didn't catch every other game-breaking unbalance so far, so their usefulness for game balance is obviously horrendously limited.

TRY A LOWER HEAT THRESHOLD AND FASTER DISSIPATION ON THE TEST SERVER WITH REAL PLAYERS. See if that changes anything. Don't just add yet another complication to the game's balance and hope nobody figures out how to get around it.

Even with cool shot, you can't get around a more limited heat threshold. Faster dissipation compensates for the difference with chain fire more so than Alpha Strikes. The heat damage over 100% is a GREAT step in the RIGHT DIRECTION, but one step forward and two steps back isn't progress.

[Victor Morson]

You know, I disagree with a lot of community suggestions but at this point give me one. Any one. Nothing can be worse than this except "remove group fire."

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 July 2013 - 08:20 PM.

[FupDup]

Victor Morson, on 12 July 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

You know, I disagree with a lot of community suggestions but at this point give me one. Any one. Nothing can be worse than this except "remove group fire."

Don't challenge Paul or he will prove you wrong.

Edited by FupDup, 12 July 2013 - 08:21 PM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 12 July 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

Don't challenge Paul or he will prove you wrong.

Personally, we just need to transcribe the "Word of Paul" into some sort of MWO Bible. Then, we shall recite passages that contradict each other so that we may slay the White and Black Knights of MWO.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 July 2013 - 08:23 PM.

[Magicbullet141]

Just fix the hit detection, I REALLY don't want to see another SRM hell again!

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 12 July 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

Personally, we just need to transcribe the "Word of Paul" into some sort of MWO Bible. Then, we shall recite passages that contradict each other so that we may slay the White and Black Knights of MWO.

The Word of Paul has been spoken!

[HumptyWasPushed]

Why are you nerfing the Awesome (9m, 8Q)?

[HC Harlequin]

Why don't you just use heat to balance everything like the original tabletop? Why bother with all this.. Just make it so if you carry heat over 4 seconds you start moving slower, jump shorter, torso twist and arm X slower, weapon convergence slower, ammo and engine explosion chance increased etc. Why try to reinvent the wheel by punishing both builds that are canon and builds that match your hardpoint process. Just generalize the heat. someone at 100% heat has 0 movement, 0 torso twist, 0 jump jet, etc etc etc. The reality check should be.. does taking a variety of weapons do the same damage for less heat? Oh.. in this system it does. Because if 2 ERPPC, 2 LL and 2 ML does more damage for the same heat as having a certain number of ERPPC or LL or ML then the system is broken.

[Corvus Antaka]

Khobai, on 11 July 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Large Laser + 2 PPCs + Gauss = 100% circumvention with minimal loss of damage. This fix is just so bad... it doesnt fix the sniper metagame it just changes it from one problematic loadout to another.

against a fast mech your gauss and ppc wont hit the same spot unless hes running dead on, and the large laser will only spray some.

still, i do agree in the sense i too would have prefferred a system that penalized alphas over X damage vs # of guns of one type- where we already see the obvious flaw of the 2 or 3 ppc 1 gauss boat that will require linking gauss to ppc.

[aniviron]

HumptyWasPushed, on 12 July 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

Why are you nerfing the Awesome (9m, 8Q)?

They were clearly OP; and good riddance, I say. I can't recall the last time I played a round and wasn't swamped with awesomes- usually at least 2-3 per team.

[Ialdabaoth]

Heat penalties for alpha striking were exactly the wrong way to do this.

Implement hard point restrictions, and implement a convergence penalty for multiple PPCs.

Problem solved.

[Victor Morson]

The Downfall of PGI, Part Deux:

[Rigger]

I've mentioned this to many of my clan mates and most think it would help.

Why not take PPC, and ERPPCs and give them a .5 or .75sec charge time. Since the weapon is a burst weapon why not make it act more like one.

simple mechanics to it i believe. It takes alot of power for this weapon to produce the desired effect. so why not say there are capacitors built into the weapon so that it has a draw power from the reactor for a half a second or so to be able to do this? It would be like having the missile bay doors closed on your mech (that has them) when you fire a volly of missiles. Even thinking about it just the sounds you could create for it to enhance the likeability would/could be fun... WHIIIIIIRRRRRRR, FOOOOM!

Just changing PPCs like this would make them more of a skill based weapon as they are intended to be. Not everyone carries around a PPC on every mech in the Battletech universe, usualy only one or two because of the skill it takes to use them effectively. Especialy alot of the light mechs that we have running around with them. They werent built for that, but i cannot deny you are able to customize your mech any way you see fit. But there are mechs that designed to do certain functions, and have certain types of payloads. Hopefuly eventualy we will get some of these light mechs that carry only one weapon like a PPC, or even a Gauss. (Hollander, PackHunter, Wolfhound).

Adding a feature to PPCs i think would limit down how many people used at once. Instead of point and click and your target dies, you would have to aim a hell of alot better.

Just a thought on that. Why add something to all weapons that dont need it, and just add the feature to the one that has caused the most uproar?

Rigger.

[Sephlock]

Lasers don't need a heat penalty at all...

ER Large Lasers run hot enough as it is, and do damage over time.

Large Lasers run a little less hot but have significantly less range than ERs.

Mlas have short range and the only mechs that can boat them either can't boat enough to be truly fearsome (just threatening- which is fine), are hideously underpowered for other reasons (See: The Awesome), are too slow to make them truly frightening (Stalker), or are the BJ-1X.

Seriously, take the alpha strike away from the BJ and you are left with ... there were too many potential puns here, and I'm too tired to choose. Make one up yourself.

ANYWAY...

Really, if this system is going to be implemented, it should only be applied to PPCs.

People who whine about LRMs and AC/20s in their current states are beyond salvation- giving them what they want won't make them less terrible at the game.

[DeathlyEyes]

This is so wrong. 41 heatsinks should be able to continiously fire 4 ppcs and they don't already do that. There is nothing wrong with ppcs. Fix hit detection so SRMs are properly strong. Reduce laser duration for more long range viability of other weapons if that is the concern. All this is going to do is change what is considered over powered. People need to stop complaining and let PGI finish the game. As a final note this fix is unbalanced medium lasers get an unfair advantage. They already do more DHS than PPCs with no minimum range. Now they get stacked less easily. 6 medium lasers= 24 heat while 3 ppcs create 24 heat. Why do ppcs start causing problems when 3 are fired. That is a double standard.

Edited by h4t3r4d3, 13 July 2013 - 01:30 AM.

[Alex Warden]

Asmosis, on 11 July 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

large lasers... infact all beam lasers should be exempt from this. 90% of the time the damage is spread as you can't alpha with large lasers, its spread over a full second. You can't chainfire them with 0.5 either due to beam duration.

wrong... you can chainfire them faster, if you klick for every gun in the chain. i always chainfire 3LL+3ML in my Laserstalker,and i can fire them FAST. you can also "alpha" a center torso of a slow target, even in chainfire (if klicked fast enough and aimed accurately...) i didn´t time it,but i can easily assume you can make 6 shots within 2 seconds.

plus, only because the weapons have a beam duration doesn´t mean you absolutely can´t alpha pinpoint with them. you can. not always, but you can

Edited by Alex Warden, 13 July 2013 - 01:27 AM.