1084 replies to this topic

[Majorfatboy]

SRM boats aren't that big a deal. Sure, they'll own your *** on river city and frozen city, but they get their ***** owned on alpine and canyon.

Every mech I drive (Yes, even My Jenner) has at least one weapon that's optimal at 600+ meters. Whoa unto the splatcat that enters My cross hairs out in the open. Just this morning I was sawing the ears off of C1s, C4s, and A1s with the twin ER large lasers on My Quickdraw.

[Sasha Volkova]

Butane9000, on 13 July 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

My god the drama.

You're forgetting to factor in the heat changes. Notice how they capped SRM6's at 3 per volley? Splat cats that use 6 will be hard pressed when they massively over heat. We're more likely to see 3 SRM6 zombie centurions again then we are Splat cats.

Actually I was not forgetting anything, but what you seem to be forgetting yourself, is the fact that noone knows how much the heat will scale.
PLUS
Just like PPC's and ERPPC's atm, there is a very big chance that SRMS will be devided meaning that firring 3 srm6's and 3 srm4's would give you no heat penalty, plus if you feel naughty you can go 2 srm6's and 4 srm4's all with artemis and have even more tonnage for ammo (which the mech tends to need) or heatsinks to even further lower the heat created.
My point is that if ANYONE believe splatcats to be out of the picture yet, they might be disappointed.

Still I cant help but feel you are a bit boring...
Mood Wrecker...

Edited by 0okami, 13 July 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Here is my more complete feedback about the post:

1 - LL limit at 2 is low. 3 is the minimum I'd recommend. ERLL should be wrapped in with LL.

2 - Missiles should be limited by total missile count, not launcher type (though differentiate SRM and LRM). IE., ~20 SRMs or ~40 LRMs are the limits and you get extra heat per extra X tubes beyond those limits.

3 - All in all this system has all kinds of flaws and I'd prefer to see it either overhauled or replaced as soon as PGI can do so. I have two proposals for alternative heat-based balance fixes.

First, PGI could keep a heat penalty when firing weapons, but instead of relating it arbitrarily to lumped weapons of the same type, why not tie it to current heat? If you're running hot, you generate more heat when firing. If you're cool, you generate less. This would have much the same impact on repeated high-heat alphas, but would be weapon-agnostic and would not require any complicated balancing across weapons.

Second, and far better, would be if PGI replaced the whole system with one based on "soft" heat penalties as your heat climbed the scale. By "soft" I mean as you get hotter your mech's systems start to degrade progressively. You lose speed, your accuracy suffers (either make convergence have a margin of error or add something like the current JJ mechanic), and you can't turn, twist, or move your arms as responsively. This would both have far more of the flavor of BattleTech and would balance universally across weapon type, with more of an impact on high-heat, long-range weapons (and would make future tech like Triple Strength Myomer more meaningful).

[Wintersdark]

0okami, on 13 July 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

OH MY GAWD!!

The poll is going in favor of buffing to 2.0 damage...
Well I guess we all now what that means...

EVERYONE!! MAN YOUR SPLATCATS!!

THIS IS THE DAY OF RECKONING!
FOR SOME IT IS A DAY OF TERROR!
BUT FOR OTHERS IT IS A DAY OF SALVATION!
BRING UPON THY ENEMY THE FURY OF 6xSRM6!
BRING UPON THY ENEMY AN APLHA OF 72 POINTS OF DAMAGE!
CRIPPLE THE OPPOSITION!
TAKE FROM THEM EVERYTHING!
THIS DAY MARKS THE BEGINNING OF SRM-GEDDON!
THE END OF ALL THAT IS LONG RANGE!

Oh, good lord. Where you one of those ... fine fine fellows ... proclaiming how StreakCats would destroy the universe once the BAP changes went live? Seen many of them murdering folks? No?

The same thing applies to Splatcats.

I piloted one, back in the day - though to be fair, I've piloted practically everything, and have a stupid number of mechs.

The thing is, there are a LOT of background changes that have really changed things:
1) There are more large maps. Before the Splash fix, but after the release of Alpine, did you ever take a Splatcat there? SRM's were still stupidly overpowered, but Splatcats just fell over dead because you'd never get close enough to use them.
2) Splash damage fix. Mentioned above, but in more detail - Single missiles were doing upwards of 12 damage to certain mechs due to the splash bug. As a result, splash damage has been reduced in radius so much the missiles do effectively none. A Splatcat previously could do well over 100 damage to a mech in a single 36 missile volley then - that is no longer the case. 6xSRM6 would only do ~72 damage now, and....
3) Missile path changes. Back in the splatcats day, the missiles would converge at certain ranges. Decent Splatcat pilots could use this to cause all those missiles to converge on your center torso, delivering extreme damage to a central component. Now, missiles spread to a very wide area very quickly, and stay at that spread. Even with Artemis, the spread is fairly large and prohibits pinpoint damage entirely (unless you're facehumping the enemy mech at least)
4) Seismic Sensor (thanks Deathlike!). With Seismic, it's FAR more difficult to sneak up on opponents to get that close range high damage hit.
5) PPC/Gauss Meta. The biggest weakness of a Splatcat is high damage long range pinpoint alphas, which are capable of ripping off it's ears before it can deal substantial damage. Doing so is trivially easy. Adding that the average map size is substantially larger now (and will go up with the new large Lava map) re: point 1... Splatcats are quite neutered out of the gate.
6) Finally, these very heat scale penalties will force Splatcats, which already ran very hot, to drop down to 3srm6/3srm4 or to fire two groups of 6's individually, either way reducing the instant damage output substantially.


So... yeah. Think before you drama-rant.

[Victor Morson]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 13 July 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Here is my more complete feedback about the post:

And everyone else's feedback is:

[Grimmnyr]

MrMadguy, on 13 July 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

There will be only one result of this change - I will instant quit any hot map in this game, cuz it will be just a waste of time for me. I was in so good mood before yesterday: was very happy about the game, was thinking about what mechs I'll buy next, about donating into extra slots, exp transfering and etc. And yesterday you spoiled my mood. And I'm not going to donate anything, while I'm in bad mood.

You will insta-quit, because you can not be bothered to learn how to use a balanced build? I understand that there are many people who will not play a game unless then can be OP in every match.

[OznerpaG]

hows this for limiting heat - make engine DHS dissipate at 1.4 and DHS outside the engine dissipate at 2. that way if you want max heat dissipation you have to use up 3 critical slots. think my ERPPC jenner is going to do so well with 14 heat dissipation compared to it's current 20? i think you will have much more appropriate weapons loadouts on all mechs when DHS are taking up a lot of your available slots

[Victor Morson]

Namais, on 13 July 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

The above. Of all the ******** things to suddenly poll about. Can we have an ECM poll now? How about an official 3pv one? Seismic? Regional servers? Gauss HP? Voicecomms? Of course not. Instead the choice is "band aid or nothing"

Self serving guff.

By the way Warframe just hit 3 millions signups and sprouted a design council. Take some notes.

Yep.

They finally come down with "We will listen to our community!" stuff, and then basically give us the awesome input of "Crappy-fix this weapon now, or crappy-fix it after we fix the other thing?"

Seriously, the way it's worded is "This WILL happen, sooner or later?" and that's our only actual input.

They have no idea at all what they are doing with the game. It is clear, without a shadow of a doubt, Paul, Garth and Russ all do not even remotely understand how MW:O works and they simply refuse to accept it.

Part of a balance designers job is to get outside input, guys.

[Sephlock]

0okami, on 13 July 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

Actually I was not forgetting anything, but what you seem to be forgetting yourself, is the fact that noone knows how much the heat will scale.

http://www.khanacade...onential-growth

[Azzras]

Wow, sooo many devs in this thread. You all should put in an applicaiton.

[Azzras]

Namais, on 13 July 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

The above. Of all the ******** things to suddenly poll about. Can we have an ECM poll now? How about an official 3pv one? Seismic? Regional servers? Gauss HP? Voicecomms? Of course not. Instead the choice is "band aid or nothing"

Self serving guff.

By the way Warframe just hit 3 millions signups and sprouted a design council. Take some notes.

Are you really comparing Warframe to MWO?
REALLY?
/facepalm

[Victor Morson]

Azzras, on 13 July 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

Wow, sooo many devs in this thread. You all should put in an applicaiton.

Half of the posts are in fact more qualified than what's going on there.

Every time this comes up I'd like to remind you that their last epic balancing project was for the multiplayer component of a Transformers 2 tie-in game. Why I should take that experience over people who have seen a LOT of incarnations of MechWarrior and identified the problems before they even started (Read my 2012 sig thread?) is beyond me.

The thing is, I don't expect them to know everything. That's why you talk to your top competitive players. Every freaking AAA studio does this. I don't know why PGI thinks they can avoid doing it because they're not AAA status is beyond me.

[Gwaihir]

Victor Morson, on 13 July 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

The thing is, I don't expect them to know everything. That's why you talk to your top competitive players. Every freaking AAA studio does this. I don't know why PGI thinks they can avoid doing it because they're not AAA status is beyond me.

^^^^ A good post.

Edited by Gwaihir, 13 July 2013 - 06:46 PM.

[Azzras]

Victor Morson, on 13 July 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

Half of the posts are in fact more qualified than what's going on there.

Every time this comes up I'd like to remind you that their last epic balancing project was for the multiplayer component of a Transformers 2 tie-in game. Why I should take that experience over people who have seen a LOT of incarnations of MechWarrior and identified the problems before they even started (Read my 2012 sig thread?) is beyond me.

The thing is, I don't expect them to know everything. That's why you talk to your top competitive players. Every freaking AAA studio does this. I don't know why PGI thinks they can avoid doing it because they're not AAA status is beyond me.

See the thing is, in closed beta the devs said they WERE NOT worried about balance until launch because it's not that high on the totem pole.
People scream likes it's the end of the world, though. So instead of new features and bug fixing, they have to turn their focus to ppl crying and whining because PPC is more powerful than a freaking medium laser.

Cry me a river.

[Sasha Volkova]

Sephlock, on 13 July 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

http://www.khanacade...onential-growth

Nice video, too long and too filled with facts for me to bother watching though :b
Could you perhabs put your thoughts into writing to allow me to comprehend it?

Wintersdark, on 13 July 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Oh, good lord. Where you one of those ... fine fine fellows ... proclaiming how StreakCats would destroy the universe once the BAP changes went live? Seen many of them murdering folks? No?

The same thing applies to Splatcats.

I piloted one, back in the day - though to be fair, I've piloted practically everything, and have a stupid number of mechs.

The thing is, there are a LOT of background changes that have really changed things:
1) There are more large maps. Before the Splash fix, but after the release of Alpine, did you ever take a Splatcat there? SRM's were still stupidly overpowered, but Splatcats just fell over dead because you'd never get close enough to use them.
2) Splash damage fix. Mentioned above, but in more detail - Single missiles were doing upwards of 12 damage to certain mechs due to the splash bug. As a result, splash damage has been reduced in radius so much the missiles do effectively none. A Splatcat previously could do well over 100 damage to a mech in a single 36 missile volley then - that is no longer the case. 6xSRM6 would only do ~72 damage now, and....
3) Missile path changes. Back in the splatcats day, the missiles would converge at certain ranges. Decent Splatcat pilots could use this to cause all those missiles to converge on your center torso, delivering extreme damage to a central component. Now, missiles spread to a very wide area very quickly, and stay at that spread. Even with Artemis, the spread is fairly large and prohibits pinpoint damage entirely (unless you're facehumping the enemy mech at least)
4) Seismic Sensor (thanks Deathlike!). With Seismic, it's FAR more difficult to sneak up on opponents to get that close range high damage hit.
5) PPC/Gauss Meta. The biggest weakness of a Splatcat is high damage long range pinpoint alphas, which are capable of ripping off it's ears before it can deal substantial damage. Doing so is trivially easy. Adding that the average map size is substantially larger now (and will go up with the new large Lava map) re: point 1... Splatcats are quite neutered out of the gate.
6) Finally, these very heat scale penalties will force Splatcats, which already ran very hot, to drop down to 3srm6/3srm4 or to fire two groups of 6's individually, either way reducing the instant damage output substantially.


So... yeah. Think before you drama-rant.

Oh wait are you one of those who thinks everything on the internet is serious and for real?
Could you not grasp the OBVIOUS tone of sarcasm and the fact that I was taking the point of view from someone who would be against all this?
Oh wait no that would require the ability to think, something I should stop expecting from people on the internet it seems.

[Sephlock]

It's PGI dude, look at their previous nerfs.

[HansBlix WMD]

How about a third option to the poll: leave SRM damage unchanged, and reduce the damage of every other weapon by 25% (to simulate bringing SRMs from 2.0 to 1.5).

[Deathlike]

Azzras, on 13 July 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

See the thing is, in closed beta the devs said they WERE NOT worried about balance until launch because it's not that high on the totem pole.

The thing is.. you can only "not" do it for so long until people start caring less about the game and play something else. 3+ months of the PPC meta is not exactly I would call "fun" at this point... more like an "obligation" to stay useful in the game.

This does not even begin to cover what newbies think about dying quickly to PPCs.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 July 2013 - 08:11 PM.

[Khell DarkWolf]

This is going to hurt LRMs even more, they already run hot as is.

While we can't see the other LRM versions, the LRM-15's heat scale need to atleast be increased to 4 or 3.

I still believe this heat scaling penalty overall is not going to solve our problem with PPCs or convergence weapons.
Nor do I believe that keeping and reverting SRMs at 1.5 DMG is a viable option, they should remain at 2 DMG and have streaks do a different damage table from SRMs.

[Wintersdark]

0okami, on 13 July 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Oh wait are you one of those who thinks everything on the internet is serious and for real?
Could you not grasp the OBVIOUS tone of sarcasm and the fact that I was taking the point of view from someone who would be against all this?
Oh wait no that would require the ability to think, something I should stop expecting from people on the internet it seems.

Ah, of course, I must have missed the sarcasm font.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but it's very, very common for posts like yours above to be entirely serious, and the "tone" is entirely in your head. Text medium, right? I assume you're not new to the internet, so you should well know that there are a LOT of really ranty, stupid people, who rant things just like that in all seriousness. So, given that, it's a pretty reasonable assumption that you were serious - that's where the good odds where anyways.

Hell, just look back in this thread. There's oodles of entirely serious "omgsplatcats" posts.

Regardless, my apologies for misunderstanding.