1084 replies to this topic

[Stelar 7]

Victor Morson, on 20 July 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Let me explain it really simply as just one example among many:

Problem - 1 Gauss, 2 PPC Jumpers
Not a problem - 9 Med Las Swaybacks

Guess which one got nerfed?

PS: 1 Gauss, 2 PPC would not be a problem if the guns were balanced right.

Nicly condescending, perhaps I am just reading uncharitably. I'll be very explicit in where I agree with you, and where your criticism fails.

1. Poptarts, I do not see 1GR and 2 PPC as overpowered, but yes the jumping with it makes them obnoxious. A better fix would be shake on the way down with the shke on the up, but I think an even better fix would be giving gravity ome teeth, based on weight and falling distance. Let poptarts wreck their actuators and legs in general, if they don't land under controll.

2. Swayback, the penalty on med lasers is 1. I played the stock one when I had to use trials, the mech is hardly useless is it really that bad with the new heat rules? Is there a similar thread to the AC 40 jager wake?

3. I don't think the balance on the mechanic is right, yet. It needs some tweaking, LL does not need 2 maybe 3 probably 4. PPC and Gause rounds should be set to speeds that make them a bit less compatable. However, the idea of the mechanic, that is elegant and can be used to get a much needed handle on all kinds of cheese without the need for tons of code. It threads the needle between restrictive convergence solutions, and forced delay mechanics by rewarding skill as both shooter and target, and it retains a useful alpha with some consequences that make the alpha strike, not every strike.

[Victor Morson]

Stelar 7, on 20 July 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

I do not see 1GR and 2 PPC as overpowered

Compared to the other weapons this indicates you don't play many good players, period.

Edited by Victor Morson, 21 July 2013 - 01:05 AM.

[arghmace]

Stelar 7, on 20 July 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

Swayback, the penalty on med lasers is 1.

Actually the 7th med laser has a penalty of 3.2 heat, 8th has 4.4 and 9th has 6.0.

http://mwomercs.com/...cale-the-maths/

[PanzerMagier]

Victor Morson, on 20 July 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Let me explain it really simply as just one example among many:

Problem - 1 Gauss, 2 PPC Jumpers
Not a problem - 9 Med Las Swaybacks

Guess which one got nerfed?

PS: 1 Gauss, 2 PPC would not be a problem if the guns were balanced right.

Quoted for great justice.

[Royalewithcheese]

Pht, on 19 July 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

... because somehow, in an economy driven persistent MMOG, they somehow ... can't make clan toys and omnimechs in general ... rarer, more expensive to get, and harder to maintain?

That sounds suspiciously like something that involves work. I already do the "delayed gratification + clicking on things" deal between the hours of 9:00 AM and 5:00 PM and don't want it to be a core design feature of a computer game I play about shooting robots.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 21 July 2013 - 10:06 AM.

[Gaden Phoenix]

I think tons of people has said it before. Solution can be simple. Add in size limitations for each body part,

For example. for stalkers for each torso, 3 laser slots each. 2 slots large, 1 slot standard.

Thus max a stalker pilot can carry is 4 PPCs/LLs and 2ML. They still will be able to boat but less effectively.

Also to further help with boating, enforce the 0.5 delay for weapons over the current heat scale limit.

So if a stalker fires 4 PPCs, They will fire 2 PPCs first followed by the 0.5 second delay then the last 2 PPCs. If they want to alpha, they would need to press the override switch, allowing alpha but incurring a heat penalty like current system or a more simple standard heat multiplier (like maybe multiple by 1.5).

Regards.

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 21 July 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[Erata]

http://mwomercs.com/...-heat-nerf-now/

Three pages of feedback that can't be quickly summarized.

[Nulnoil]

Erata, on 22 July 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...-heat-nerf-now/

Three pages of feedback that can't be quickly summarized.

How can it be that you still don't receive PGI answer: its all just a noise.

[MustrumRidcully]

I am not sure if I mentioned this before expclitely, but:

This is not a alpha-strike pinpoint precision nerf. It's really just a boating nerf, and it hurts builds that were not problematic just as much as it hurts the problematic builds.

I know, boating is boring, not everyone should run a boat and all that. But some mechs are boats. The question is - are they overpowered due to that?

A mech with 4 SRM6s isn't overpowered. The damage isn't even precision damage, SRMs are the very definition of damage spreaders, even more so than duration-based lasers.

The Splatapult was OP because SRMs dealt much more damage then now, and I am not just talking 2.5 damage, I am talking 2.5 damage per missile plus a generous splash damage (and we only fully realized that when splash damage got even worse due to hit box changes). In short, SRMs were overpowered. Stacking overpowered weapons is always a good idea, regardless of whether you have to chain-fire them or not, simply because they give you more bang for their buck then other weapons.
This kind of problem is not something you need to address with a boating-penalty, you need to address this for the weapon itself.

---

Aside from the above, there is more to do than just nerf alpha-strikes boats. You also need to buff the non-boats, because even chain-fired, using a boat is easier than using a mech with a mixed loadout that always had to chain-fire.

Also not sure if I posted this already in this thread, but anyway:

Recycle Rates
The more different your weapon's recycle rates are, the more difficult it is to time your attacks and manage your weapons.
Solution: Standardized recycle rates. Not all weapons must have the same, but they should be compatible to each other, for example by the next highest always being twice the current recycle rate. This way, a non-boat either can work out a weapon rotation.

Projectile Speed
Mixing ballistics is a bad idea, since they all use different projectile speeds. Not only that alpha-striking against moving targets doesn't work well, even if you chain-fire, you have to keep the different speeds in mind when guesstimating the lead.

Not all weapons need the same projectile speed - but if you can set up weapons that there is at least a pair of weapons that always have the same speed, you encourage actually combining at least these pairs.


Beam Duration
This is not quite as important, as beam duration is part of the recycle time anyway, so your shots will sync up - but if you mix short beam duration weapons with long beam duration weapons, you don't get the full benefit of the shorter beam (which would be that you can lose the target earlier and start manoeuvring/torso-twisting).

[Warge]

Just started to use PPCs. Exellent weapon! But heat should be put to 10 and 15 for ER PPC. And min range for PPC =120m.

[Dimento Graven]

Zerikin, on 11 July 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Heat scaling will not fix the alpha strike meta. The core of the problem is the ability to have all the damage hit a single point.

I disagree. Adding a heat scale affects table similar to TT would address the issue across ANY build (not just boats) and reintroduce heat management as a necessary skill for this game.

At minimal heat, you can get off that first alpha as 'pin point' as you like, however, you pay for that with a 'normal' increase in heat, and as your heat goes up, your ability to aim accurately and have 'pin point' convergence could be affected, as well as, your speed being ever more reduced as your heat goes up.

What PGI has FOOLISHLY decided to do is introduce a ONE OFF solution SPECIFIC to a very narrow build genre, namely BOATS.

However, as the penalties increase, all that's going to happen is you'll have people building 'mechs with the maximum non-penalized weapon array, 2 PPC's, 2 LL, 6 ML, etc. etc. etc., and the problem will still be that these people will be firing alphas upwards of 6 times in a row before an actual affect from the heat their weapons generate becomes a factor.

Again, it's canonically stupid to have the current heat affects table:
0%-99% maximum heat = NO ILL AFFECT
100% maximum heat = SHUT DOWN (for maybe around 30 seconds depending on Pilot Skill)
+100% = random internal damage

There are all sorts of creative things they could be adding:
0% - 25% maximum heat = NO ILL AFFECT
26% - 30% maximum heat = 10% speed reduction, 5% targeting drift, 5% weapon de-convergence
31% - 50% maximum heat = 20% speed reduction, 10% targeting drift, 10% weapon de-convergence
51% - 75% maximum heat = 35% speed reduction, 20% targeting drift, 15% weapon de-convergence, 15% increase in energy weapon recycle time, a chance at pilot 'red out' (like passing out only the screen goes red for random durations)
75% - 90% maximum heat = 50% speed reduction, 30% targeting drift, 50% weapon de-convergence, 25% increase in energy weapon recycle time, an increased chance at pilot 'red out', certain percentage chance for ammo explosion
90% -100% maximum heat = shut down, potential ammo explosions, and additional internal component damage.

THIS, although certainly more difficult to implement, would make MUCH MORE SENSE than alpha penalization. People who wanted to build boats could still do it, BUT, they'd have to be aware of the affect heat will have on their build. So instead of getting off 2 or 3 alphas then worrying about heat, they fire their alpha and have to debate:

Alpha again and risk it (who's close? am I exposed?)
Hide and cool
Start firing more slowly maintain heat at current levels (or slow cooling then alpha again)

So on and so forth.

Again, emphasis through repetition, the nice thing is, a heat affects table solution affect ALL builds in the same way, not just the boats. EVERY build where the pilot was running hot would be affected. So that Raven doing 150kph firing 3 ML's and 3 SSRM's continuously will start running more and more slowly as his heat builds up, he'll have a harder and harder time getting and maintaining locks for his streaks. His ML's will take longer to recycle and they won't all hit the exact same point on the target... Just like for the Atlas with an AC20, PPC's, LRM's and ML's... Or the Streakapault ™, etc. etc.

It builds a more rich game, but as it is with their current solution... heck PGI just borrowed SOE's nerf bat and started beating its player base in the crotch...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 22 July 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Stelar 7, on 20 July 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

I did not quote anyone, or create a strawman, unless you agree with me that arguments from cannon table top rules for the way a realtime shooter simulation should balance it's play elements are universally flawed for the same reason apples and oranges don't get compared directly. And that no real argument would use some tabletop rule as a justification. Except I have seen many of those type of claims made, here in this thread even.
...

I'm addressing this portion of your comment, above I posted something that could be implemented in an RTS. What I read of your comment, I interpret as you intimating that '...TT rules can't possibly be applied to an RTS, EVER...' is a seriously flawed view point.

In this case having a heat affects table for a MWO is a must for balance, so that we don't get what is effectively a 'half-baked' solution targeting a narrow scope of the game, boats.

Any solution implemented for ANY MMO must balance across as broad a base as possible, the solution of the alpha penalty, does not do that. Also for a game with as much history, cannon, and die hard fans out there, the current solution makes no REASONABLE sense as far as existing story line, explanations of technology, etc. The solution is as disruptive to the 'immersion factor' as NOT having an actual heat affects table.

That's ALWAYS bothered me about MWO, it only started bothering me THAT MUCH MORE, when 6 PPC boats became so common, but NOT because boating 6 PPC's didn't make sense (original BattleTech/MechWarrior there was no such thing as a "hard point" system to restrict your weapon layout, want to build an Atlas with 20 MG's? Go ahead...), but that the 6 PPC boat could fire upwards 6 times without becoming a puddle of melted steel and titanium, or the fact that a Raven, Commando, Jenner, Cicada could all be running 100+ kph while glowing white hot running at a constant 90% maximum heat.

HEAT was as important factor of battle, if not more so, than RANGE to target, speed of 'mech, and how much armor and ammo you loaded.

As it is now, PGI's relegated it to a minor annoyance, something the most inept and unaware pilot barely has to give a second thought to.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 22 July 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[StandingCow]

Here is what I think would fix a lot of our issues:
Weight balancing. You make it so we only see 1 maybe 2 assaults per side in 12v12, high alphas won't be a big problem anymore.

Mix that with the different armors give different advantages against different weapon types and I think the game would be in a much better place.

Edited by StandingCow, 22 July 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[SmithMPBT]

StandingCow, on 22 July 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Here is what I think would fix a lot of our issues:
Weight balancing. You make it so we only see 1 maybe 2 assaults per side in 12v12, high alphas won't be a big problem anymore.

Mix that with the different armors give different advantages against different weapon types and I think the game would be in a much better place.

I agree, once 12v12 goes live a limit of 1 Assault Lance (4 Mechs) per team should be implemented in PUG matches. I know this is gonna throw the MM into meltdown, but it would definitely improve gameplay.

[Dimento Graven]

StandingCow, on 22 July 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Here is what I think would fix a lot of our issues:
Weight balancing. You make it so we only see 1 maybe 2 assaults per side in 12v12, high alphas won't be a big problem anymore.

Mix that with the different armors give different advantages against different weapon types and I think the game would be in a much better place.

SmithMPBT, on 22 July 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

I agree, once 12v12 goes live a limit of 1 Assault Lance (4 Mechs) per team should be implemented in PUG matches. I know this is gonna throw the MM into meltdown, but it would definitely improve gameplay.

I disagree. While weight balancing will be a major factor in the game, it will have a negligible affect on resolving the issue that results from being able to repeatedly fire a LARGE alpha (whether from a boat, or min/maxing the current half-baked solution from PGI) with little to no concern over the affects of heat.

Oh and 'MM meltdown' is putting it mildly. The MM already does weight balancing it just lessens the 'strictness' of the weight balance based on how long it has taken to set up the match. The longer it takes, the higher the chance for significant imbalance. With a strict 10% balance rule that can't be broken, or a set of strict rules of X-number of assaults, X-number of heavies, X-numbers of mediums, X-numbers of lights, I could see a majority of matches not ever getting started and people endlessly launching and re-launching trying to get into a match that has a slot that fits their currently chosen 'mech.

It'd be brutal, almost vindictive turn against the somewhat smooth running of the MM now...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 22 July 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[SmithMPBT]

Less salts less 2-3 shot kill boats right? Factor in the current heat nerf and that should be enough IMO.

[Wraith511802003]

Gaden Phoenix, on 21 July 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

I think tons of people has said it before. Solution can be simple. Add in size limitations for each body part,

For example. for stalkers for each torso, 3 laser slots each. 2 slots large, 1 slot standard.

Thus max a stalker pilot can carry is 4 PPCs/LLs and 2ML. They still will be able to boat but less effectively.

Also to further help with boating, enforce the 0.5 delay for weapons over the current heat scale limit.

So if a stalker fires 4 PPCs, They will fire 2 PPCs first followed by the 0.5 second delay then the last 2 PPCs. If they want to alpha, they would need to press the override switch, allowing alpha but incurring a heat penalty like current system or a more simple standard heat multiplier (like maybe multiple by 1.5).

Regards.

So assault mechs should be only allowed to carry the same weapons as heavy? You should fear assault mechs not think you can take one with a lite. This is the problem, folks think they should be able to run around in any mech they want and survive any attack they get.. this is not TT and the rules dont apply.

[Dimento Graven]

Wraith511802003, on 22 July 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

So assault mechs should be only allowed to carry the same weapons as heavy? You should fear assault mechs not think you can take one with a lite. This is the problem, folks think they should be able to run around in any mech they want and survive any attack they get.. this is not TT and the rules dont apply.

I'm not sure what all the hostility towards TT is about, nor why it's not an acceptable common 'starting point' for any discussion of a BattleTech/MechWarrior based game, regardless of it being RTS, turn based, or what have you.

Even in TT a light 'mech having a "chance" at killing of a heavy/assault was extremely remote, EVEN IF you used expanded rule sets and had piloting/gunnery skill mods to the dice rolls. So, poo-poo'ing the inertia of TT as an argument against a point they actually make for you is... ill advised.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 22 July 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[Aim64C]

Dimento Graven, on 22 July 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

I disagree. Adding a heat scale affects table similar to TT would address the issue across ANY build (not just boats) and reintroduce heat management as a necessary skill for this game.

At minimal heat, you can get off that first alpha as 'pin point' as you like, however, you pay for that with a 'normal' increase in heat, and as your heat goes up, your ability to aim accurately and have 'pin point' convergence could be affected, as well as, your speed being ever more reduced as your heat goes up.

The problem with this is that heat in TT and heat in real time are different.

In TableTop, heat only built up on your next turn. You fired 4 PPCs, and on your next turn, with 15 double heatsinks and standing still, you had 10 heat on your mech. Your mech never "felt" 40 heat.

Directly translating that to a real-time environment is a little more tricky - as a Jenner firing its 6 medium lasers (which, my current build would dissipate 26 points out of 33 total points of heat generated for a remainder of 7 heat on the next turn) would instantly shut down on all but the most frozen of maps.

A perfectly viable build in TT becomes completely unworkable.

Even with link fire - firing two medium lasers will send you screaming over 30% of your heat threshold. A third will put you near 50%.

Lights would simply not exist in the game. You shoot at something (even with a modest few of your weapons), slam to a virtual halt, then take a bunch of autocannon fire from assaults.

Mediums fall into the same trap.

You would have to set the heat threshold at 30, but then implement an additional system based on your heat sink capacity. This heat would build and dissipate without bleeding over into the chassis where you begin to see heat effects.

Quote

What PGI has FOOLISHLY decided to do is introduce a ONE OFF solution SPECIFIC to a very narrow build genre, namely BOATS.

At least we agree on this point, however.

[Dimento Graven]

Aim64C, on 22 July 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

The problem with this is that heat in TT and heat in real time are different.

In TableTop, heat only built up on your next turn. You fired 4 PPCs, and on your next turn, with 15 double heatsinks and standing still, you had 10 heat on your mech. Your mech never "felt" 40 heat.

Directly translating that to a real-time environment is a little more tricky - as a Jenner firing its 6 medium lasers (which, my current build would dissipate 26 points out of 33 total points of heat generated for a remainder of 7 heat on the next turn) would instantly shut down on all but the most frozen of maps.

A perfectly viable build in TT becomes completely unworkable.

Even with link fire - firing two medium lasers will send you screaming over 30% of your heat threshold. A third will put you near 50%.

Lights would simply not exist in the game. You shoot at something (even with a modest few of your weapons), slam to a virtual halt, then take a bunch of autocannon fire from assaults.

Mediums fall into the same trap.

You would have to set the heat threshold at 30, but then implement an additional system based on your heat sink capacity. This heat would build and dissipate without bleeding over into the chassis where you begin to see heat effects.



At least we agree on this point, however.

It's not that difficult to translate into real time at all. Theoretically it's showing you, and the server is monitoring, your heat "REAL TIME" already. All that would be necessary is for the server to add MORE than the TWO checks on heat that it already has (it has ONE real time check in that if heat goes to 100%, shutdown, and the other is 101% and greater results in random internal damage), so that when heat gets above 25%, it starts slowing your 'mech down, REAL TIME, just like it ALREADY does for terrain, it changes the "focus" randomly +/- by the appropriate percentage (to simulate de-convergence), it starts randomly shifting the targeting reticule +/- by the appropriate percentage, just like it ALREADY does for jump affect (to simulate aiming issues, though in this case it would have to be a more slow, smooth shift, again like Borderlands 2 does it for sniper accuracy effects).

MOST of what I've suggested in previous responses is ALREADY there, it's just a matter of adding the checks to turn the affects on/off as the heat scale changes during battle.

Again, emphasis through repetition:

1. Heat checks are already there, it's just that right now, there's only two.
2. convergence exists, it's just a matter of triggering a random percentage change based on heat level.
3. aiming modifier already exists (though it would need to be mod'd a bit to make it work 'reasonably)...
4. Ammo explosions already exist, again add heat checks and a percentage chance
5. Speed modifiers already exist, again add heat checks to activate/deactivate as appropriate per the heat scale.

It's not just MORE than already possible, it's already PARTIALLY done. It's just a matter of taking some of the code they've already have and tweaking it for the purposes of a more balanced canonically appropriate solution.

As far as the heat affects how people play, THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. Yes, you SHOULD NOT be allowed to fire willy-nilly the entire expletive match with almost ZERO concern for heat. That's just stupid. The light pilot wants to move at his full speed for the whole match, fire, and fire a lot less. An assault pilot doesn't want to spend an entire match moving 10kph and missing 90% of his shots, he'll choose his shots A LOT more carefully.

As it is now, we're all practically playing "spray and pray", just shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot, uh oh, NOW I'm at 99% heat, guess I better stop shooting for 10 seconds, ok, shoot shoot shoot, pause...

Game play would become a LOT more 'thoughtful', FOR ALL builds and 'mech classes, with a more robust heat affects table that's for sure.