185 replies to this topic

[GingerBang]

BlackIronTarkus, on 11 July 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

How do you shoot from long range without it? This question have nothing to do with high alpha.

learn to aim. It's not like the weapon flies out of control. It just fires literally straight forward from the mech, instead of being aimed at the vanishing point straight out from the center of the mech.

Edited by GingerBang, 11 July 2013 - 04:29 PM.

[Khobai]

Each mech ccould just have a customized reticle that matches their hardpoints. So you could still aim all of that mech's weapons but the weapons would no longer converge together.

[GingerBang]

Cybermech, on 11 July 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

well I'm nearly sure there will always be convergence other wise you would never hit anything.
If you guys haven't noticed but hit detection has been kicking PGI in the balls over the last while.
It has been the cause of delays in the past.
Right now its heat and still not sure why you would think people are being ignored.
This is a slow process, it will still take sometime to getting there.

Have you ever played a mechwarrior game before this? They don't have it. You can hit things just fine, you just can't ALPHA STRIKE. You can still aim, there is no reason you could not aim. It's the different between throwing a baseball pitch straight out from your arm, compared to throwing to straight out in front of your chest. You just actually have to (oh no) think about it and your weapons current vector.

Khobai, on 11 July 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Each mech ccould just have a customized reticle that matches their hardpoints. So you could still aim all of that mech's weapons but the weapons would no longer converge together.

This is actually a real thing in battle tech. Some sort of target computer specifically for ballistics.

[Roughneck45]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 July 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

GAU-8

Go to 1:50 and see how tight a convergence this single Auto-Cannon has!

Battletech is not real life.

Besides, out autocannons operate in an entirely different manner, and are not flying through the air as they fire (only falling down from it! haha)

Edited by Roughneck45, 11 July 2013 - 04:38 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roughneck45, on 11 July 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Battletech is not real life.

Besides, out autocannons operate in an entirely different manner, and are not flying through the air as they fire (only falling down from it! haha)

LOL It is the only Auto Cannon I could find. I know its not real life, Its why we have such pin point BS like we do.

[GingerBang]

Roughneck45, on 11 July 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

Well, you don't happen to be a battlemech, right? Human im guessing?

Convergence isn't the answer. Players with better aim are still going to kill players with worse aim. And considering there are 11 different loactions to target the mech, making convergence worse would eliminate the strategic importance of torso twist.

The efficiency of PPC's is the problem. I'd swap the speed of the gauss round and the PPC for starters. Possibly more heat, maybe a larger dead zone so brawls are a bigger problem.

Your argument contradicts itself. If people can still aim, like you say, wouldn't you still need to torso twist?


Think your statement through for a bit, then come back when you are ready.

Also, people seem to be derailing this conversation into just bashing convergence, or brown nosing PGI for it.


I'm actually wondering if PGI has actually said WHY they went with it, or if they have even breathed a word about this gorilla in the room.

[Hotthedd]

BlackIronTarkus, on 11 July 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

How do you shoot from long range without it? This question have nothing to do with high alpha.

I think you misunderstand. It is multiple weapons converging on a single crosshair that people are complaining about. That is what they mean by "convergence", you are confusing that with single-weapon pinpoint "accuracy".

[Roughneck45]

GingerBang, on 11 July 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Your argument contradicts itself.  If people can still aim, like you say, wouldn't you still need to torso twist?  

No, because you removed convergence. I could aim perfectly at his crit xl shoulder, fire, and have it hit his left torso. So essentially it gave him a free torso twist, removing need and importance for the skill.

Get off your high horse.

Edited by Roughneck45, 11 July 2013 - 04:53 PM.

[mistformsquirrel]

Honestly convergence makes perfect sense.

Consider that we're dealing with 3050 tech... when 1940s tech could easily handle this for the weapons on an aircraft. Now I grant, said weapons were simply zero'd to a particular range where they would converge rather than converging at whatever point was aimed at, but I'd find it absolutely hilarious and laughable if a technology level that allows for 15m tall walking tanks weighing 100 tons can't manage a little automated adjustment of weapons systems. I mean at any but the closest range the actual adjustment is miniscule - we're not talking about every weapon needing to be in a turret or anything. The arms by themselves allow more than enough freedom for this, and torso mounted weapons could easily shift very slightly to allow for any but the largest shifts. And at point blank ranges, it ceases to matter so much since you're so close you kind of can't miss.

Normally I try to leave reality out of Battletech, since the two often clash; but this is one area where the argument is absolutely ridiculous.

I mean at a dead minimum - absolute minimum - the arms alone can handle convergence with weapons mounted in them. I mean seriously - get a couple laser pointers and point them at a wall so that the two dots overlap - unless you're standing right up against that wall you'll be able to manage it with relatively little effort - and your Battlemech can too especially considering it's operating at ranges ten times greater than you are from that wall.

Let me put this another way - the computer technology already exists today to allow a modern main battle tank to hit a target while on the move at full speed. If it's possible with today's technology to drive 60kph while hitting tank sized targets largely thanks to computers handling automated adjustment of the gun, don't you think in 3050 that technology can probably handle the adjustment of your weapons by a half degree to keep them firing on one point?

There are better ways to solve the balance issues than "your walking tank can't hit anything accurately"

[GingerBang]

Roughneck45, on 11 July 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

No, because you removed convergence. I could aim perfectly at his crit xl shoulder, fire, and have it hit his left torso. So essentially it gave him a free torso twist, removing need and importance for the skill.

Get off your high horse.

Are you drunk? The weapons aren't going to just fly all over the ******** place. They are going to go STRAIGHT FORWARD. So if their right torso is STRAIGHT IN FRONT OF THE WEAPON, IT WILL HIT THE RIGHT TORSO..


My god how can somebody not understand that? Do you really think the weapons are just going to start flying all over the map every which way? Do you really think convergence means "fly straight" and not "converge on a point."

[Roughneck45]

GingerBang, on 11 July 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

Are you drunk? The weapons aren't going to just fly all over the ******** place. They are going to go STRAIGHT FORWARD. So if their right torso is STRAIGHT IN FRONT OF THE WEAPON, IT WILL HIT THE RIGHT TORSO..

But that is only 500m and less. You are trying to remove sniping from the game if you get rid of convergence.

[GingerBang]

mistformsquirrel, on 11 July 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Honestly convergence makes perfect sense.

Consider that we're dealing with 3050 tech... when 1940s tech could easily handle this for the weapons on an aircraft. Now I grant, said weapons were simply zero'd to a particular range where they would converge rather than converging at whatever point was aimed at, but I'd find it absolutely hilarious and laughable if a technology level that allows for 15m tall walking tanks weighing 100 tons can't manage a little automated adjustment of weapons systems. I mean at any but the closest range the actual adjustment is miniscule - we're not talking about every weapon needing to be in a turret or anything. The arms by themselves allow more than enough freedom for this, and torso mounted weapons could easily shift very slightly to allow for any but the largest shifts. And at point blank ranges, it ceases to matter so much since you're so close you kind of can't miss.

Normally I try to leave reality out of Battletech, since the two often clash; but this is one area where the argument is absolutely ridiculous.

I mean at a dead minimum - absolute minimum - the arms alone can handle convergence with weapons mounted in them. I mean seriously - get a couple laser pointers and point them at a wall so that the two dots overlap - unless you're standing right up against that wall you'll be able to manage it with relatively little effort - and your Battlemech can too especially considering it's operating at ranges ten times greater than you are from that wall.

Let me put this another way - the computer technology already exists today to allow a modern main battle tank to hit a target while on the move at full speed. If it's possible with today's technology to drive 60kph while hitting tank sized targets largely thanks to computers handling automated adjustment of the gun, don't you think in 3050 that technology can probably handle the adjustment of your weapons by a half degree to keep them firing on one point?

There are better ways to solve the balance issues than "your walking tank can't hit anything accurately"

You do realize that aircraft had a fixed weapon convergence that only worked at a certain range right? It wasn't dynamic, it was static. It converged at a pre-defined location in front of the plane.

Roughneck45, on 11 July 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

But that is only 500m and less. You are trying to remove sniping from the game if you get rid of convergence.

Ummm, no? All the other mechwarrior games had plenty of sniping without any convergence. So your point is moot.

[mistformsquirrel]

GingerBang, on 11 July 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

You do realize that aircraft had a fixed weapon convergence that only worked at a certain range right? It wasn't dynamic, it was static. It converged at a pre-defined location in front of the plane.

I said *precisely that* in my post. You didn't read it did you?

"said weapons were simply zero'd to a particular range where they would converge rather than converging at whatever point was aimed at"

That's right in there.

I was giving an example of super-basic convergence technology. I mean don't you think if nothing else - even ignoring computers (which Battletech obviously has), some genius would *at least* set up their weapons to converge at a certain range simply because it is more effective than just splattering an area with fire?

Edited by mistformsquirrel, 11 July 2013 - 05:02 PM.

[ssm]

Convergence must stay - it keeps the game similar (and simple, at least on 'aiming' level) enough to other fps shooters that it actually atracts new players. Other ideas (separate reticles etc.) are fun, well though out and would make this game a realy cool mech simulator. Pity it would be dead in few months.

It's f2p, it needs new players to stay alive, so devs had to make compromises between standard fps crowd and BT simulator fans.

GingerBang, on 11 July 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

Ummm, no? All the other mechwarrior games had plenty of sniping without any convergence. So your point is moot.

Maybe I don't remember correctly, but at least in MW4 all shots went straight where you aimed them.

Edited by ssm, 11 July 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[WVAnonymous]

mistformsquirrel, on 11 July 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

I said *precisely that* in my post. You didn't read it did you?

"said weapons were simply zero'd to a particular range where they would converge rather than converging at whatever point was aimed at"

That's right in there.

I was giving an example of super-basic convergence technology. I mean don't you think if nothing else - even ignoring computers (which Battletech obviously has), some genius would *at least* set up their weapons to converge at a certain range simply because it is more effective than just splattering an area with fire?

Ooh, fixed convergence on all torso weapons. That would change the Stalker 3F experience...

[Joseph Mallan]

GingerBang, on 11 July 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Your argument contradicts itself. If people can still aim, like you say, wouldn't you still need to torso twist?


Think your statement through for a bit, then come back when you are ready.

Also, people seem to be derailing this conversation into just bashing convergence, or brown nosing PGI for it.


I'm actually wondering if PGI has actually said WHY they went with it, or if they have even breathed a word about this gorilla in the room.

They went with it cause many of the original Testers were worried about their mad Skillz being undermined by CoF as I heard it.

Roughneck45, on 11 July 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

But that is only 500m and less. You are trying to remove sniping from the game if you get rid of convergence.

Rough, To be fair, Sniping usually involves shooting a single high powered gun, not alpha striking.

[mistformsquirrel]

WVAnonymous, on 11 July 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

Ooh, fixed convergence on all torso weapons. That would change the Stalker 3F experience...

Theoretically I could see some merit in that. That said I don't feel it would genuinely solve anything overall however, and would just make some less problematic mechs more annoying to play when they weren't causing the problem to begin with.

[aseth]

Each weapon should have its own reticle that shows where it's aiming. The uber players could quickly aim their different weapons in chain fire by torso twisting enough to compensate for the different hardpoint locations.

[Gallowglas]

GingerBang, on 11 July 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

have you been browsing the forums over the past two days? Just about every other post is ranting against convergence. The people who want to keep it and one shot people should go back to playing call of duty.

Yes, and if slow convergence were to be implemented, people would gripe about it being an artificial nerf to skill and would move on to other amazing suggestions that would miraculously cure everything. The community isn't magically enlightened about how balance works. After all, it was in part community feedback that put us in the situation we're in with PPC's.

Personally, I think slow convergence is a bad idea. It feels arbitrary and counter-intuitive. I also think it would be incredibly annoying to deal with. YMMV.

Edited by Gallowglas, 11 July 2013 - 05:57 PM.

[Skyfaller]

BlackIronTarkus, on 11 July 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

How do you shoot from long range without it? This question have nothing to do with high alpha.

You can shoot from long range. They just wont hit in the same exact spot.

Draw a dot on a piece of paper. That is where your CT weapons converge.

Draw a circle 1cm radius from the dot, with dot in center. The left/right edges of the circle is where your RT/LT weapons will hit.

Draw a circle 2cm radius from the dot, with dot in center. The left/right edges of the circle is where your arm weapons will hit in mechs without arms (aka stalker)...or will converge in CT location if mech does have arm weapons (aka awesome).

Voila. convergence issues solved. Arm mechs get their advantage niche and six ppc stalkers will be landing their ppcs with 3 ppc hits worth on either side of target mech's torso (or miss one arm volley altogether).