65 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Been hearing alot of QQ from lights about how seismic ruins there game and nerfs them into oblivion however that is totally false.

Seismic is actually a huge advantge for light mechs, if they are mounting it and using it tactically.

First, a lights role is to scout. Seismic enhances that role immensely. Now they don't have to visually see the enemy which means the enemy can see them, rather they can just get within 400m of them without any risk and identify where they are and get a good idea where they are going.

Second, for ambush and harrassment tactics, knowing where the enemy is located and what in general they are doing is of unparalled importance.

Tactically:

- Light mechs using seismic can determine the location of enemy mechs and with a bit of practice and observation, determing facing and direction of movement
.
- The light mech to set up angles of approach that will do maximum damage with little risk.

- They can use it to find enemies that are seperated and isolated for wolfpack tactics.

- They can insure they aren't running or jumping into the entire enemy team.

- They can insure they aren't being approached from their own blind sides.

- They can use it to determine if they are being closely pursued.

- They can use it to see if any enemy might become a threat at some point.

Additonally when you consider that only about 25-30% of mechs are actually mounting seismic, being able to do all this, while 70% of the enemy mechs are completely blind to them in the same way, gives light mechs a huge advantage over just about any other class of mech.

In a nutshell, new equipement comes out, you have to change tactics, maybe even adopt the new equipment and figure out how to make it work for you. Warfare (and MMO games) aren't stagnant. You have to adapt, not QQ about it.

[FupDup]

The reality of the matter is that it negatively affects every mech that attempts flanking maneuvers. Lights and mediums just so happen to flank more often due to having terribad armor and weapons (can't attack head on outside of the steering wheel underhive). Heavy and assault flankers get foiled by this as well, because now campers can just turn around and 360-l337-noscope them with PPCs. Heavies and assaults might even be hurt slightly harder because there's more time to react against them.


By the way, another detail that is important is the fact that sniper nests are far less mobile and thus less likely to show up on Seismic, whereas brawlers/flankers are almost always moving. Seismic by its very nature compliments the long-range style of play because it allows one to avoid close-quarters confrontations with mobile enemies.

Edited by FupDup, 11 July 2013 - 08:11 AM.

[AvatarofWhat]

FupDup, on 11 July 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

The reality of the matter is that it negatively affects every mech that attempts flanking maneuvers. Lights and mediums just so happen to flank more often due to having terribad armor and weapons (can't attack head on outside of the steering wheel underhive). Heavy and assault flankers get foiled by this as well, because now campers can just turn around and 360-l337-noscope them with PPCs. Heavies and assaults might even be hurt slightly harder because there's more time to react against them.


By the way, another detail that is important is the fact that sniper nests are far less mobile and thus less likely to show up on Seismic, whereas brawlers/flankers are almost always moving. Seismic by its very nature compliments the long-range style of play because it allows one to avoid close-quarters confrontations.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[Tennex]

they might as well put in 360 radar with no LRM targeting.. since they pretty much already have it.

might as well solve ECM, active/passive sensor, BAP issue as well by doing that.

Edited by Tennex, 11 July 2013 - 08:09 AM.

[FupDup]

Tennex, on 11 July 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

they might as well put in 360 radar.

Master Chief would approve.

[hammerreborn]

[Lefteye Falconeer]

As someone else said, stop talking about seismic and lights mechs. Seismic is hurting the game for everybody. All classes of mechs. It trivialize maneuvering, flanking, line of sight, communication warfare. It is by all mean a wallhack, so it is a cheat except you have to pay Cbills for it instead of downloading it from a shady website.

And as all cheats, it impoverishes the game experience for everybody.

Also, stop pretending it's a module you can take or not take. You HAVE to take it, otherwise you are being dumb. There are not enough modules, let alone useful ones, to justify not taking the X-ray view and going for something else.

Edited by Lefteye, 11 July 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[hammerreborn]

Lefteye, on 11 July 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

As someone else said, stop talking about seismic and lights mechs. Seismic is hurting the game for everybody. All classes of mechs. It trivialize maneuvering, flanking, line of sight, communication warfare. It is by all mean a wallhack, so it is a cheat except you have to pay Cbills for it instead of downloading it from a shady website.

And as all cheats, it impoverishes the game experience for everybody.

And would you like me to explain what lights have to do with trivializing maneuvering, flanking, line of sight, and communication warfare, or would you like to figure that one out yourself?

[Blackadder]

There is a reason wall hacks are considered cheats in PC games, the fact that the developer thought to put a limited range<400M is not very limited btw> wall hack in the game, speaks volumes as to where this game is going. It is without a doubt the worst thing PGI has done in regards to this game, trumping even idiotic ECM implementation.

A module that becomes a must have item, just like ECM, basically sells itself as to how badly broken the item in question is.

[Lefteye Falconeer]

hammerreborn, on 11 July 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

And would you like me to explain what lights have to do with trivializing maneuvering, flanking, line of sight, and communication warfare, or would you like to figure that one out yourself?

Not sure what you mean. I am trying to say that Seismic is definitely hurting light mechs, but not just light mechs. Which is even worse. I am not trying to say Lights should stop complaining. The opposite. They have all reasons to complain, and so has everyone else because seismic is just idiotic and should not be in the game. So I am annoyed at the OP trying to give a 'questionable' angle as if the complains were coming just from Lights cause it is so not the case. Lights are the most hurt, but the whole game is wounded by this nonsense.

Or are you defending the Seismic sensor as it is?

Edited by Lefteye, 11 July 2013 - 08:19 AM.

[NRP]

You know Viktor, you really are going to have stop with all this logic and reason. There is no place for that crap around here.

[Araara]

Don't forget that this module basically cheapens all space awareness that a player must have to actually be good at this game (and thus, shortens the distance between a bad player and a good player), whether it be to not make a bad maneuver straight into the enemy line of fire or scouting/flanking in general.

Especially for a light mech that's scouting in front of the main group, light mechs that scout and call movement of enemy mechs over 800m are pretty rare right now.

And I'm sure you guys remember the spatial awareness you needed to have to counter flankers.

Edited by Araara, 11 July 2013 - 08:24 AM.

[PEEFsmash]

Viktor you flopped on this one.

The main thing Seismic does is prevent anyone from getting surprised. Guess who does the surprising? Lights and mediums. Now, Lights and mediums can no longer jump an unaware lone assault or flank the edges while others are unaware.

Meanwhile, the snipers, barely moving anyway, can get a massive alarm that someone is nearby, oftentimes without even giving away their own position.

Let's go through your supposed reasons:

- Light mechs using seismic can determine the location of enemy mechs and with a bit of practice and observation, determing facing and direction of movement.
Every mech gets this advantage. Considering that lights are the ones moving more, and snipers the ones moving less, this makes Lights more likely to be picked up.

- The light mech to set up angles of approach that will do maximum damage with little risk.
If a light sees a big on Seismic, the big sees the light. There is no such thing as an angle of approach that will let the light do damage that the big won't be able to shoot him at. In fact, by even pretending to be sneaky in a light, the big will just stop moving, watch his minimap, and face in the direction that you are going to come from and one-shot you.

- They can use it to find enemies that are seperated and isolated for wolfpack tactics.
Good bigs don't get isolated in the first place. Experience against bad teams/pugs that leave lone assaults in the open with no backup is NOT RELEVANT to balance, because the issue could be fixed with better play.

- They can insure they aren't running or jumping into the entire enemy teams.
Although this can sometimes be true, the same goes for bigs. The bigs can know they can't walk into a trap either. However the difference again is that lights are always moving and so will always be pinging the map, whereas bigs sometimes aren't moving, or can afford not to move in order to more easily trap the lights.
- They can insure they aren't being approached from their own blind sides.
Lights don't get flanked. Lights are moving too much for a front ever to be established, and a front is required for a flank. My mind is somewhat blown that you think that seismic is an advantage for lights when it comes to being approached from blind sides, when that is exactly what Lights and Meds are supposed to do. This point is not in your favor whatsoever, in fact it is the best point against you.

- They can use it to determine if they are being closely pursued.
Lights already know if they are being pursued because they can torso twist and look behind them. The real reason, however, is that they will be getting pounded by streaks, lasers, or they will be dead when something is behind them. Also, bigs can also use seismic to determine if they are being pursued, and it is much more important for them, especially when it comes to lights attempting to be tricky and get shots on back armor. This is no longer possible, you cannot weave between buildings/cover and catch the assault expecting you to come out of the wrong side of the cover and get a back shot and retreat. This is all gone because the assault just lines up his arrow with the red dot on the minimap and waits until the light pops out and boom dead.

- They can use it to see if any enemy might become a threat at some point.
OK now you aren't even trying. If this is a fact at all...and I'm not sure it is, then it is certainly a fact for every class. Every class can use this to see if the enemy might become a threat if by threat you mean "they're moving toward us." No special advantage to lights, but another significant disadvantage to hit and run tactics that lights and mediums use.


OK this thread can be done now.

[giganova]

The issues with the seismic sensor are exaggerated, just like most of the hot-button issues the community whines about. A battle plan never survives first contact with the enemy. Sometimes it's better to not know what's around that corner, so when you are surprised by the entire enemy team, you have room to improvise and adapt. Otherwise, you see all the red blobs on the minimap and start making assumptions ("best laid schemes of mice and men... often go awry") that will fall apart quickly. I think the module is balanced fine the way it is currently. There have been plenty of times where I've taken out that cocky light or medium mech whos sole reliance on that module specifically lead to their downfall.

[Angel of Annihilation]

PEEFsmash, on 11 July 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Viktor you flopped on this one.

The main thing Seismic does is prevent anyone from getting surprised. Guess who does the surprising? Lights and mediums. Now, Lights and mediums can no longer jump an unaware lone assault or flank the edges while others are unaware.

Not going to go point for point on this one, rather I am just going to address your opening statement.

This is total BS and I know it because I achieve suprise all the time in my QD, a 60ton mech the size of an Atlas and one of the pieces of equipment that allows me to do it is seismic sensors.

I can see where the mechs are, I can see where they are going and I can pretty much tell if they are focusing on other mechs or me just how the react to my movements.

I see them change direction and move to intercept me, I can then change my angle of approach. Maybe instead of coming around the edge of a hill, I will decide to move over it and hit them on the flank as they are looking at me to come from around the hill.

Maybe I see them all moving toward one of my teammates so even if they see me I can pretty much assume they aren't focused on me and therefore I can jump over the hill and engage or sweep behind them.

I can also estimate the size of the mech by how fast the little red blip is moving and therefore have a decent idea if I have the advantage or not.

Maybe I can see 6 enemy mechs all suddenly angle toward me and I can veer off and into cover before they can reach me.

It is called using the darn thing to gain tactical advantage. Sure every mech can use it, sure it can provide the same info to everyone but lights and other fast and/or jump capable mechs can take advantage of it much more fully because they have the mobility to react to what they are seeing. A little red blip can't tell you if the mech can jump or not for example so if you are in a Jenner or Spider, use your JJs to get the drop on them. Hell LOOK like you are going to run around the hill THEN right before come into the enemies sight, JUMP over the damn hill and take him from behind. Seriously it just takes skill and practice to do all this, nothing more, nothing less.

And if the enemy doesn't have seismic equiped and they don't know your position then your coming at them like a fricken ninja, knowing their every move. Again something a LIGHT mech can do better than anyone else because they have mobility and speed.

It is a friken huge advantage for Lights and other fast moble mechs if people would just get their heads out of the sand about it. Again it comes down to easy, easy, easy. Lights had it easy before because there was no way to detect them coming other than visually. Now its not so easy, you have to think about how to approach, you have to learn new skills....OH MY GOD NOT THAT!!!! Grrrrr....it just steams me that people think this way then cry nerf this, nerf that rather than learning counters or developing new tactics or in the case of seismic, learning to use it to a huge advantage.

Note: I run a Jenner too, in fact it is my founder mech and I STILL SEE SEISMIC AS AN ADVANTAGE.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 11 July 2013 - 09:15 AM.

[Roland]

I'm amazed that the issues that everyone is pointing out to you in detail are still somehow beyond your ability to grasp.

A module that lets you see where everyone is around you cannot possibly make it easier for you to sneak up on anyone, unless you are playing against players who do not have it equipped.

This seems painfully obvious to me, and everyone else.

You aren't surprising anyone in you QD, unless they are terrible, or have poorly outfitted mechs. Maybe you think you are, but you're not... because it's impossible to surprise someone when they see a blinking red dot indicating your position.

[PropagandaWar]

I like siesmic. Everyone can have it not everyone does. I do however think the reach is to far out. It also helps lights alot like viktor said. Unless you know you happened to drop in the invinci spider we seem to get time and time again it does help keep the lights from getting focus fired on. But by reducing the read to 150 basic and 250 advance and forcing you to stay still to get a siesmic readout I think would solve a lot of issues.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 11 July 2013 - 09:22 AM.

[Drehl]

PEEFsmash, on 11 July 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Viktor you flopped on this one.

The main thing Seismic does is prevent anyone from getting surprised. Guess who does the surprising? Lights and mediums. Now, Lights and mediums can no longer jump an unaware lone assault or flank the edges while others are unaware.

Meanwhile, the snipers, barely moving anyway, can get a massive alarm that someone is nearby, oftentimes without even giving away their own position.

Let's go through your supposed reasons:

[Wall of text]

OK this thread can be done now.

I completely agree.

[Mad Dog Morgan]

Gameplay has been gravitating towards heavier tonnages. I'd say your argument is fallacious at best. Once you start going up against teams with it equipped, your so-called advantage becomes a huge disadvantage. You cannot use cover and evasion to your advantage when an Atlas has seismic, or a light-hunting heavy like a Quickdraw. I have played both ends, and the ones that seismic really hurts the most are the ones that rely on their speed to move into brawling/engagement range.

[General Taskeen]

Just like I shouldn't have to use ECM Counter, BAP, or PPC's to fire missiles, is just the same as I shouldn't have to have Seismic to be situationally aware of someone that is wall hacking. Its impossible to be situationally aware of wallhacking, just as it is a headshot bot.