84 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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Actually, by forcing folks to play lighter mechs due to tonnage restrictions, they actually automatically end up being better because they are being matched up against OTHER LIGHTER MECHS.
This is how it worked in the old MW4 planetary leagues. In addition to providing scouting info, we routinely brought lights and mediums, because we had to.. and they were fine, because we were fighting against other lights and mediums.

Yes but its a poor way to balance the game. Heavies and Assaults are outright better than lights in the current metagame. That means forcing 8-mans to take light mechs is just forcing someone to play a less-than-optimal mech. That is completely unfun and ********. If Light mechs were equal to Heavies and Assaults there would be no reason to force anyone to take them. Why do you want to take the easy way out? The better way to is to just make Light mechs fill a crucial role in the game that heavies and assault cant perform... that way playing a light mech is not only fun but also contributes as much to winning as the other weight classes. Tonnage restrictions are a bad fix to a problem that can be solved in a much better way.

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Oh and the reason Lights die on the field uselessly is the pilot's fault not the Mech's. I know several Light Pilots who eat up Heavies and Assaults on a regular basis.

I kill pugs in Atlases all the time with my Commando. But I would never bring my Commando to a competitive match because it would be nothing but a liability.

Edited by Khobai, 12 July 2013 - 06:35 PM.

[Braggart]

Khobai, on 12 July 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Yes but its a poor way to balance the game. Heavies and Assaults are outright better than lights in the current metagame. That means forcing 8-mans to take light mechs is forcing someone to play a less-than-optimal mech. That is complete retardedness. If Light mechs were equal to Heavies and Assaults there would be no reason for force anyone to take them. Why do you want to take the easy way out that doesnt balance the game or make it fun?

jesus christ. Heavy and assaults were more powerful in table top also................you know how they balanced that. BATTLE VALUE........................ which means i can field more lights & mediums than you can field assaults.

good lord, i feel like half the people on the forums have no idea what they are talkign about..

Tell me mister smarty pants, how are you gonna balance lights and mediums when an assault is twice their battle value.

[FupDup]

Braggart, on 12 July 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

jesus christ. Heavy and assaults were more powerful in table top also................you know how they balanced that. BATTLE VALUE........................ which means i can field more lights & mediums than you can field assaults.

good lord, i feel like half the people on the forums have no idea what they are talkign about..

Tell me mister smarty pants, how are you gonna balance lights and mediums when an assault is twice their battle value.

A big part of the reason that people insist on "equal" lights and mediums is because this game presently lacks battle value. Right now every mech is worth a single player slot regardless of what it is--whether it be a trial Spider or a PPC Stalker.

I would probably pay money to see an entire army of PPC Spiders go against an assault lance of equal BV. Sadly, I don't know of PGI ever plans to add something along the lines of BV for that to happen.

Edited by FupDup, 12 July 2013 - 06:27 PM.

[Roland]

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That means forcing 8-mans to take light mechs is just forcing someone to play a less-than-optimal mech.

Eh, it's not really "less than optimal", it's just weaker.

You can't make light mechs the straight up equal to assault mechs. It just doesn't work like that.

Even as it stands, the disparity is small enough that skilled light mechs most definitely can kill any other mech in the game, including assault mechs.

The tonnage disparity tends to rear its head most when one whole team out tons the other.... Because it's hard for lights to take down multiple assaults at the same time.

We played MW4 with tonnage restrictions, and our light and medium pilots never felt like they were getting "the crappy mechs" or something.

Like I said, medium mechs are actually my favorite rides.. the only problem right now is that you get paired against mostly assaults and heavies. If that wasn't the case, playing mediums would be infinitely more viable.. and I think, as things stand, tons of folks actually WANT to play medium chassis.. they just get sick of playing them against assault mechs every single game.

[Braggart]

Roland, on 12 July 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

Eh, it's not really "less than optimal", it's just weaker.

You can't make light mechs the straight up equal to assault mechs. It just doesn't work like that.

Even as it stands, the disparity is small enough that skilled light mechs most definitely can kill any other mech in the game, including assault mechs.

The tonnage disparity tends to rear its head most when one whole team out tons the other.... Because it's hard for lights to take down multiple assaults at the same time.

We played MW4 with tonnage restrictions, and our light and medium pilots never felt like they were getting "the crappy mechs" or something.

Like I said, medium mechs are actually my favorite rides.. the only problem right now is that you get paired against mostly assaults and heavies. If that wasn't the case, playing mediums would be infinitely more viable.. and I think, as things stand, tons of folks actually WANT to play medium chassis.. they just get sick of playing them against assault mechs every single game.

ive been a medium mech pilot since netmech days. This game has made mediums the worst ever a mechwarrior game.

[Joseph Mallan]

Braggart, on 12 July 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

jesus christ. Heavy and assaults were more powerful in table top also................you know how they balanced that. BATTLE VALUE........................ which means i can field more lights & mediums than you can field assaults.

good lord, i feel like half the people on the forums have no idea what they are talkign about..

Tell me mister smarty pants, how are you gonna balance lights and mediums when an assault is twice their battle value.

You do realize that is something that is not entirely true also. Many of the scenarios have a stipulation that defenders get field anywhere from 75%-100% or I have seen some that the "weakened defending force" Can only bring 50% of the Attacker.

BV Is so broken I wouldn't use it on a dare. I know a player who put 12 MGs on a Stone Rhino, no ammo and 3 Gauss(with ammo) and single sinks so he could bring 5 with 1G/2P. Spare me about BV.

[Khobai]

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jesus christ. Heavy and assaults were more powerful in table top also................you know how they balanced that. BATTLE VALUE........................ which means i can field more lights & mediums than you can field assaults.

This isnt tabletop though. The developers dont want heavies and assaults to be more powerful. They intended for role warfare to give all mechs a equal role in the game regardless of their weight class.

[Braggart]

Khobai, on 12 July 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

This isnt tabletop though. The developers dont want heavies and assaults to be more powerful. They intended for role warfare to give all mechs a equal role in the game regardless of their weight class.

and...................................................................................they have no achieved that in the slightest.............every change from table top to this game has favored heavy and assault mechs.

every change to the game has made it easier to utterly destroy a medium mech in a rounds(10 seconds) worth of combat.

Edited by Braggart, 12 July 2013 - 06:47 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 12 July 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

This isnt tabletop though. The developers dont want heavies and assaults to be more powerful. They intended for role warfare to give all mechs a equal role in the game regardless of their weight class.

Also when faced with a good light Pilot My Atlas falls like a ton of bricks, So it's not the Mechs that are at fault.

[Khobai]

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and...................................................................................they have no achieved that in the slightest.............every change from table top to this game has favored heavy and assault mechs.

Regardless of whether theyve achieved that or not is irrelevant. The point is role warfare has always been their intention. They are not going the tabletop route of balancing based on tonnage or battlevalue. They are trying to do their own thing and balance all weight classes with eachother. Which quite honestly is fine, as long as PGI isnt talked into doing another bad fix like tonnage restrictions. The heat fix was bad enough.

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Also when faced with a good light Pilot My Atlas falls like a ton of bricks, So it's not the Mechs that are at fault.

Honestly I havent had a problem with lights mechs since streaks were nerfed and state rewind was implemented. And the new movement rules make light mechs a joke because they slow down so much when going uphill now. The Jenner is the only light mech thats even remotely scary and even thats only a fraction as scary as it used to be.

Edited by Khobai, 12 July 2013 - 06:52 PM.

[Braggart]

Khobai, on 12 July 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

Regardless of whether theyve achieved that or not is irrelevant. The point is role warfare has always been their intention. They are not going the tabletop route of balancing based on tonnage or battlevalue. They are trying to do their own thing and balance all weight classes with eachother.

they are????????????????? prove it to me. Matchmaking is supposedly suppose to match bye ELO and tonnages. But is not coming even close to that.

Tell me exactly what PGI plans. Cause thier plans involve making mediums useful, and this is the correct way, and they seem to agree, but they are letting matchmaking be far to lax.

You have no point to your posts other than BIG MECHS GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!BIG MECHS GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You dont want a good game, you want the game focused around what you want. You are pathetic.

Edited by Braggart, 12 July 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 12 July 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

Regardless of whether theyve achieved that or not is irrelevant. The point is role warfare has always been their intention. They are not going the tabletop route of balancing based on tonnage or battlevalue. They are trying to do their own thing and balance all weight classes with eachother. Which quite honestly is fine, as long as PGI isnt talked into doing bad fix like tonnage restrictions. The heat fix was bad enough.



Honestly I havent had a problem with lights mechs since streaks were nerfed and state rewind was implemented. And the new movement rules make light mechs a joke because they slow down so much when going uphill now. The Jenner is the only light mech thats even remotely scary and even thats only a fraction as scary as it used to be.

i don't have much problem with lights any more either, That is why I said Good Light pilots. Not everyone needs to be in a Light. Myself for instance

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 12 July 2013 - 06:54 PM.

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

If people want to I dont think they should stop running 8 man and 12 man games of atlases. This game should allow it. They shouldn't be able to say "hey ******** go run a hunchback instead of that sweet *** d-dc you love" I love mediums but i love my stalkers and atlases more. I run both but only when i get sick of the others do i run to meds. I play competitive and non-competitive but i dont think i should be hindered unable to run atlases if i want to run it 100 times in a row i can. They shouldnt stop that. If someone likes mediums they will run mediums. People say mediums aren't as effective as heavies and assaults. Well my hunch-4p, hunch-4j, cent-9al, cent-9a, yen-lo would all disagree. I can take on any other mech in the game 1v1 and walk away. Doesn't matter whether its a 6ppc stalker, JJphract, D-DCchunker or anything else. If you play as an effective and smart pilot you can pump out the same damage. I run my D-DC as a very strong and fast(64.2kph) brawler. I do around 900ish damage on a pretty damn good game. I have broken 1000 but i get 900 damage games nightly. I run my hunch 4p and can deal 800-900 damage just as easily. Granted I dont play t like my D-DC i dont facehug and ******** other atlases. I run at 92.7kph circle strafing and plug their b-holes with med lasers. I run my yen-low the same way, an ac20 to the back is always a good way to get somebodies attention. But my cent-9al has 2 srm6 4 med lasers. I can brawl a D-DC into the ground if I play smart. I can go head to head and still scratch him up but to take him down i circle him (92.7kph (std260 is amazing for meds)) and focus his ballistic torso until it falls of. Then he is crippled. I simply then neuter him and move on. So meds are just as effective as heavies or assaults but they are a different playstyle. Thats why hunch-4g sucks, you cant carry a large ballistic with a big engine which means you cant play like a med. Same with lights, they cant crush assaults but you cant walk around a 60kph and expect to survive ac40 jagers. You run like hell.

Edited by POOTYTANGASAUR, 12 July 2013 - 07:01 PM.

[Braggart]

POOTYTANGASAUR, on 12 July 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

If people want to I dont think they should stop running 8 man and 12 man games of atlases. This game should allow it.

That is the only good point you made. The fact us this game should offer custom matches that let entire teams take assaults, but normal matchmaking.

Everything you say after the quoted part is not important, or is it relevant.

I also want to call ******** on your damages. Just because the sun shines on a dog's *** once in a while, doesnt mean you get to claim 1000 damage on the forums. Ive done that, but I wont ever claim that is normal.

Edited by Braggart, 12 July 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[Khobai]

Exactly if you want to take 8 assaults you should be allowed to. But the gamemode should punishing you for being slow and not having any fast mechs. Likewise if you take 8 light mechs the gamemode should punish you for not having enough damage output and staying power. The maps/gamemode should encourage balanced teams and different weight classes should complement and synergize with eachother.

[Braggart]

Khobai, on 12 July 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Exactly if you want to take 8 assaults you should be allowed to. But the gamemode should punishing you for being slow and not having any fast mechs. Likewise if you take 8 light mechs the gamemode should punish you for not having enough damage output and staying power. The maps/gamemode should encourage balanced teams and different weight classes should complement and synergize with eachother.

the way to do that is balance tonnage value teams. If people want custom matches thats great, let them. But if I am doing match making, I should never face a 5 assault team and ours have 1. The system is entirely broken right now.

[Taemien]

Braggart, on 12 July 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

jesus christ. Heavy and assaults were more powerful in table top also................you know how they balanced that. BATTLE VALUE........................ which means i can field more lights & mediums than you can field assaults.

good lord, i feel like half the people on the forums have no idea what they are talkign about..

Tell me mister smarty pants, how are you gonna balance lights and mediums when an assault is twice their battle value.

Oh its easy to balance them. Nerf the turning, acceleration, and decceleration of heavier machines, buff those of medium mechs (lights are fine as I can already go toe to toe with PPC stalkers).

As others have said, each unit is one player. And TT is a bad comparison. I've seen a Cicada 3M decimate a heavier and superior Clan Loki A in a toe to toe, 1v1 engagement so saying heavier machines are always more powerful is false. Even with superior Clan equipment a heavy can get destroyed by a lighter machine who uses terrain and speed to out maneuver it.

It happens in MWO too. Why do you think people called for Jenner and Raven Nerfs (even before ECM had any functionality). And if you need evidence in lore of what medium mechs and light mechs can do to heavier machines, read the Warrior Trilogy.

Or are you one of those people that are afraid of such machines posing a threat? Pray I'm not on the other side in a light mech. I will ruin one's day even in the current status of MWO.

[Shadey99]

Braggart, on 12 July 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

ive been a medium mech pilot since netmech days. This game has made mediums the worst ever a mechwarrior game.

Only since netmech? (I ran a combat school in that btw and I miss death from above...) I played the original online mechwarrior game on Genie (which itself was a rebuild of the 2.5D game in the DOS era).

Changing my comments now to be more on topic...

I've read that they want to completely change the queue system to let people enter a pre-game 'room' and select mechs from within that interface. I think simply having matching tonnage in that would go a long long ways to 'fixing' balance issues between teams. If one side wants to run 1200 tons (12 x 100 tonners) worth of mechs then so can the other team. However if they agree on something more sane then the team can discuss who is taking what and work out a good matching.... Or even challenge themselves by taking less tonnage then the other team (in the old school days we would brag about games where we were half the tonnage of the opposing team and still won).

I rather hate the 'new school' concepts of 'OP' and 'meta' and how it squeezes the life right out of challenge and diversity... PGI isn't helping much either. A core lrm feature that is sorely lacking is artillery use. You could set your lrms to hit a specific area (such as a single hex) to cover it in lrms without needing 'locks'. So a spotter could call out 'mechs in D6, behind hills' and mechs with lrms (and in some cases the right targeting software) could pound on that spot with wide spreads to cover the whole area each volley. It didn't do concentrated damage, but who wants to be rained on by missiles even if your only taking 1, 2, or 3 hits per volley? That would break up the 'sniper ball' 'meta'. Artemis in old school actually breaks this ability, so only non-arty builds can do it. I believe a lrm 10 was also the minimum you could use for this as well.

Of course in the old days you wanted a mix of weapon types and ranges as well. The idea was that weapons had 'optimal' ranges. PPC's, Large Lasers, Gauss, and of course LRMS couldn't hit anything up close in small laser/MG ranges. So if you wanted to have fire power at all ranges you needed weapons with overlapping fields of fire. The classic designs like the marauder and warhammer exemplify this with builds making use of PPCs, AC5's, medium lasers, and srms. Also like all the phoenix mechs (minus the locust which was always a close in strike and run fighter) which have mixed weapons and overlapping fields of fire between weapons. Adding back minimum ranges would go a long way to increasing the importance of light mechs and lowering the current 'meta' of multiple same type weapons....

Anyways... my 2 cents.

[Max Grayson]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 July 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

If you look in the front page of many of the Source books you will find my name, My daughter is even a Named Character in a Mercs Handbook. I know the history and make up of the Scenarios. I was even a Commando (read demo Rep), I know all about the way to make a scenario balanced. You do know there are scenarios that are set up to make one side the probable winner so the outcome matches the Canon history right?

And Kudo's to you on being involved in Battletech, but what suprises me with all that knowledge of lore that you are actually arguing against limits. True you can play any scenrio you want, and i would advocate that PGI allow players to set up matches in a like manner, however there are always limits to matches based on something.

Now Im not a against a "unlimited" match type format, BUT to actually keep all mechs viable there will need to be either BV, tonnage limits, or restriction of some kind or no one would ever use a medium mech.

Edited by Max Grayson, 12 July 2013 - 08:20 PM.

[Brilig]

Tonnage limits sound like a good idea.