184 replies to this topic

[Plonky]

MnDragon, on 30 July 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

My thought process is this: if its bad game design 1) why do we sill have plenty of people who play and 2) (and most importantly) Why did the Devs specifically add a module and GXP unlock to ACCELERATE CAPPING????? I would venture to say that capping in both modes is an inherit design of the game.

1. I personally play because piloting a mech is fun, and the combat is fun. I assume those reasons are common among the player-base. Also, the mechwarrior (battletech) franchise is an old and much loved franchise, MWO being the latest installment. The game is also new, so people are still joining the game.

Also if I'm correct, the newer maps (apline, canyon and tourmaline) are bigger maps than the older maps. Bigger maps accentuate the problems with the way the game modes are designed, so those problems have only become apparent recently, and (perhaps) not had enough time to have an influence on player numbers. That is, of course, assuming that these problems are big enough problems to cause people to stop playing.

Also, I think it's wrong to assume that just because people play the game, that the game is in a good state. The game is fun for the most part - there are just aspects to it that are extremely frustrating. It takes a while for player frustration to reach a high enough level to stop them from playing, especially after putting money into the game. I also don't think you can assume that wouldn't be more people playing if things were different.

Regardless, I fully expect changes to occur with the current game modes, and I assume other people also have that expectation - another reason not to stop playing.

2. The developers probably added the capture accelerator because they want mechs to be able to cap points faster. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that capping was added accidentally. I think it's a good thing that PGI want there to be more types of play than straight head to head mech combat. But just because a feature is in the game doesn't mean that it, and all associated features, are working well. For example, PGI recently made changes to the way heat works in an attempt to reduce the effectiveness of high alpha builds. Another good example is the UI, which they are completely overhauling.

But no-one is complaining about the capture accelerator module (as far as I can tell). I personally don't mind the idea of capping points, attackers vs defenders or any other game mode. What I don't like is the game modes we have at the moment as they are currently implemented. They often lead to matches that aren't fun for everybody, or that aren't fun for anybody. I also feel that the current game modes tend to pigeon hole people's playstyle (i.e. reduce the number of viable options of mech type and strategy).

This is a beta product (i.e. unfinished). Just because something is in the game, doesn't mean that it is good, finished, or here to stay.

[Tyranum]

I agree with the OP, but it seems like the natural reaction to this is simply to say "you're not defending enough"...or something. Out of the 6 matches I played tonight 5 were early cap victories. I don't mind a cap victory or loss if we've had a good fight and as a last resort someone caps. That's cool by me. What I hate is waiting for the match to start, getting halfway across the map, in my Atlas, haven't fired a shot yet, and hearing "Base is under attack"... PLEASE implement an alternate game mode for those of us who've spent a ton of money in mechs on this free game so we could fight...not just chase Jenners around our base.

Pretty Meching please!!!!

[Psikez]

Tyranum, on 30 July 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

I agree with the OP, but it seems like the natural reaction to this is simply to say "you're not defending enough"...or something. Out of the 6 matches I played tonight 5 were early cap victories. I don't mind a cap victory or loss if we've had a good fight and as a last resort someone caps. That's cool by me. What I hate is waiting for the match to start, getting halfway across the map, in my Atlas, haven't fired a shot yet, and hearing "Base is under attack"... PLEASE implement an alternate game mode for those of us who've spent a ton of money in mechs on this free game so we could fight...not just chase Jenners around our base.

Pretty Meching please!!!!

...SQUIRREL?!

Edited by Psikez, 30 July 2013 - 08:22 PM.

[Leafia Barrett]

As a light pilot, here's my 2 cents.
Capping has a place in MWO. A lance of lights base-rushing, capping faster than anyone (even a light running at 152km/h) can possibly RTB, and ending the game before anyone gets remotely close to fighting is not it. Make cap speed have diminishing returns for each player standing on the point, and let the cap slowly refill when someone's not on it. Capping is not ruining the game. Dedicated capping lances are.

Edited by Leafia Barrett, 31 July 2013 - 04:35 AM.

[Ozric]

12vs12

[Plonky]

Ozric, on 31 July 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

12vs12

13v13?

[3rdworld]

You guys better come back to base, or I am going to ruin the game for everyone and waste all you time.

[Xeno Phalcon]

They mentioned eventually implementing base defense type turrets that would likely encourage people to stay close to their bases, or in the very least give a single defender some backup against a pack of lights until real backup arrives, though you would also see a trend of lights packing extreme range weapons cause in all likelyhood any such turret would be designed for 400meters or less point defense around the base, making picking them off from farther away a practical approach. (Or rushing past and hiding in a blind spot behind some object, cause we all know how people love to exploit.)

Edited by Xeno Phalcon, 31 July 2013 - 05:16 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

rolls eyes another one of those capping sucks threads, to recieve my no it dosn't answers.

What does suck is the one dimentional thinking of the people that think it does, its basically I want this removed so I can use all my high weapons damage, high armour value, slow assault without any need to think about how far I am from my base to defend it if I need to.

I did think like many others here that arming bases would be a good idea, but after giving it consideration, I think its a bad idea in assault matches as what will happen is there are 12v12 and one side stays base under its weapon umbrella and wins, or both sides stay and nothing happens.

Where armed bases might make a fun game would be in a base defence where one side has 12 mechs the other 8 and base defences

[Plonky]

Cathy, on 31 July 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

*Rolls eyes* - another one of those "capping sucks" threads which will recieve my "no it doesn't" answer

What does suck is the one dimensional thinking of people who think it sucks. It's basically, "I want this removed so I can use my slow, high weapon damage, high armor* assault mech without needing to think about defending".

I did think, like many others on these forums, that arming bases in Assault mode would be a good idea, but after further consideration I think its a bad idea. What would happen is that one side would stay in their base under its weapon umbrella, or perhaps both sides would stay at base and a tea party would ensue. I'm not against tea parties, but I was hoping for it as an optional extra at some point after launch**.

A place where armed bases might be fun is in a base defense game type. One side could have 12 mechs, the other side 8 mechs plus base defenses.

* Changed to American spelling, but you were correct with "armour". I just personally like getting rid of the unneeded "u".
**Added the tea party reference and an extra sentence to inject some humo(u)r.

I don't agree with all your opinions, but I like the way you expressed them.

[Joseph Mallan]

My position has not changed about this. If I lose by Cap it is my sides fault. If I let the enemy take my stuff I have nobody to blame but myself.

[Plonky]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 July 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

My position has not changed about this. If I lose by Cap it is my sides fault. If I let the enemy take my stuff I have nobody to blame but myself.

Don't blame yourself. It's ok.

[Kyle Wright]

God a bunch of babes!

Look here is the deal with capping and why LoneWolves will always lose to organized units... we are organized. Divided you will always lose against guys that are communicating and and setting up a fast mover to return to base.
2nd this is a tactical game..... In combat enemy command post are prime targets and are susceptible to being captured or destroyed....Learn to deal with it or get smart and start trying to organize your pugz so that you make a battle line and force lights to think twice.

If capping ****** you off so much then crawl back to call of duty where you still get rolled by organized groups same with BF3.

Or go play sports games where 1 man does all.

[Doctor Proctor]

The problem with capping is two fold:

1) If you're dropping in solo, you have no control over what your team brings. You can end up with 4 assaults and no lights, or your only "light" might be a Raven packing dual ER PPC's that moves like an Atlas. So, if your team moves up and engages the enemy and then an enemy light (or two) starts capping, you might have NO ONE capable of trekking back to the base in time.

There have been numerous times where I've dropped in an 89kph Hunchback and been the fastest thing on my team by about a good 20kph. Even when I would make it back to our base, the light will usually have the advantage due to his speed because I have stay within the cap zone whereas he can circle around all he wants. If I start trying to maneuver for position and end up stepping out of the zone, that's a couple ticks more that the light can get when he steps in. I've been stuck dancing with a light on my own and seen the cap threshold drop by easily 30% while we were dancing in and out of the cap zone. Yet, if I stay put with my back to the cap point, I get only a split second to fire at the 152kph Spider flying across in front of me. He can also slow down and usually fire between the support struts at my legs if I just stay rooted, so the whole "back to the cap" strategy usually doesn't work well in a long fight. It's only useful for buying time for your team to get back to the base, probably while taking fire to their backs the whole time.

2) Everyone always says "Well, defend your base then", but this ignores the fact that this is useless. If we have 8 mechs in our group and leave one to defend, then we risk entering the battle with 7v8 if they don't send a capper. If they DO send a capper, then we still have at best a 1v1 fight with no support. So the ability to defend is highly dependent on pilot skill and what the mech matchup is.

Assume you want to defend though. Who do you leave? A light? Nah, they have speed, can scout, harass as well as cap the enemy. An assault? You're probably not going to want to go into the main fight down an assault, so probably not. That leaves either a heavy or a medium. So that's a hole in your mid-weight ranges, but maybe one you can handle. But what about who they send?

If they send a light with a good pilot, one of two things will probably happen. Either he'll outmaneuver your heavy/medium and beat him 1v1 before starting to cap, or he'll realize that he'll get beat and pull back to the main fight. The first example means you just wasted a unit and you STILL have to RTB to deal with the cap, and the second means that the enemy will join the fight in the center before your heavy/medium can catch up, thus giving the enemy the 8v7 advantage.

If they send an assault, it's got more firepower and more armor than anything you left at base, and stands a good chance of beating your defender. They probably have a lot of long range/high alpha weaponry that can start hitting your defender from far out when they can't do much to counter without exposing themselves. So the assault will probably win 1v1 and start capping, at which point you have to RTB.

Of course if they send a heavy/medium then your defender probably has even odds of winning, but really, who sends heavies and mediums to cap? It's very rare, but in those situations, defending the base with your heavy/medium would be good. However, that's one out of how many scenarios, the rest of which you stand a huge risk of your defender losing to speed or firepower and having to RTB anyway, or just not having the enemy make a cap attempt at all and then losing the main brawl because your team is down a mech, who will now be picked off by the surviving members of the brawl in the center? How is this a tenable strategy?

Edited by Doctor Proctor, 31 July 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[Doctor Proctor]

Actually, I just had a match that perfectly illustrates what I'm talking about. I solo dropped in a Jenner and got on a team that two Jenners (including myself), a Raven, a Commando and a Cicada. The Raven was slow and probably brought heavy weapons, so the other Jenner, Commando, Cicada and myself all took off in a pack ahead of our main force. This was on Tourmaline and we were taking one of the longer routes around rather than just heading towards the center.

Since we had no idea what the enemy had brought we weren't sure if we could handle a brawl in the center, so we decided to tag their cap point and then wolf pack whoever decided to rtb before flanking the main brawl from behind. Ya know, "tactics".

Unfortunately, the enemy team also had three lights and probably a fast medium. They made a beeline for our cap point and actually started capping about 5 seconds before we got to theirs. Someone, and possibly multiple mechs, brought a cap accelerator on their team, because even with 4 of us on their point we didn't even get it down to 50% before they won the match. I don't think a single legitimate shot was fired in the match and we never even saw enemy units.

Personally, I don't think that's very "tactical" or very "fun". There's also no way to defend against it without leaving nearly the whole team at our base, since basically any one or two man defense group would get overwhelmed easily by a light wolf pack.

Oh, and total match time of about 3 minutes and 40 seconds. About 3 minutes and 20 seconds of that was spent running across the map, 20 seconds actually in the cap point. No contact. WTF?

[Chavette]

The game modes are simply poorly designed, boring, uninteresting. They could fuse the two game modes we have now into one easily, and make room for a proper, exciting one.

News about the dropped dropship mode is very bad, as it will only allow for even bigger one-sided-specialized-cheese-builds, since you can select the best cheese for every map.

[Doctor Proctor]

Just had another match this afternoon on Terra Therma. Our team was up with 5 kills to the enemy team's 0. One of our lights had started capping, we told him to stop because we wanted to finish off the last three enemy units, but he just capped out the match anyway. They even had a Spider rtb to defend their cap, but he beat him out in the 1v1 fight and then everyone else was too far away to get back or was dead. Not very fun and not the intention of capping.

[Lucian Nostra]

6 matches in a row today where 3+ lights and mediums bum rushed the base while playing assault.

I hate this crap, what's the point? you get almost nothing for cap wins and just waste the time of 12 other people. If you wanna play cap go play conquest..

[Lutz]

I agree with OP. I started the game as a founder in closed beta and left shortly after the reset of open beta due to getting bored and frustrated by A: Base capping and B: The mechanics, or lack thereof for getting into a team or talking to other players before matches. I just started playing again 2 weeks ago, got into it and started enjoying all the changes again, anod now I'm bored and frustrated after 3 days of not being able to have a good match. The new map just compounds this. I'm finding it hard to play, especially when I'm trying to level up mechs and we're getting 150 xp a match for a base cap. I really don't feel like playing 140 matches to fill up one tier of one variant of one mech. I was considering the phoenix pack but I think I'll have to skip it just due to the fact that I currently doubt the fact I'll be playing this much longer. It really doesn't make sense to not have a battle only match mode. It would solve everyone's problems with the issue. The people who QQ about the people QQing over caps wouldn't be bothered if we left their matches just as much as we wouldn't miss their elitism while in our matches.

[Lutz]

Kyle Wright, on 31 July 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

God a bunch of babes!

Look here is the deal with capping and why LoneWolves will always lose to organized units... we are organized. Divided you will always lose against guys that are communicating and and setting up a fast mover to return to base.
2nd this is a tactical game..... In combat enemy command post are prime targets and are susceptible to being captured or destroyed....Learn to deal with it or get smart and start trying to organize your pugz so that you make a battle line and force lights to think twice.

If capping ****** you off so much then crawl back to call of duty where you still get rolled by organized groups same with BF3.

Or go play sports games where 1 man does all.

Thanks for calling me a babe. I've been working out. It's good of you to notice.