46 replies to this topic

[Bobdolemite]

PGI seems to think that PUG players are cattle for the group herdsmen to cull at will and that this is the preferred way to play the game (digital human cattle), a little dramatic with the symbology I understand but its very apropos. In response to massive amount of community feedback PGI has said exactly dimp about a PUG only queue, or more exactly they have stated that most people play in groups.

While this may be true the vast majority of the groups are most likely not well organized 4 mans (this is what skews their numbers, many play with friends, but a handful of ROFLSTOMPS ruin it for everyone else)

I havent logged into this game for several days due to frustration with getting pitted against 4 mans all day long (feels like easily 70-80% of all my matches) So I tried again today thinking perhaps my frustration would abate and I could get at least 1 good game in. Nope not in the cards, 10 matches spread through the day (when I could stomach them) and every single one a stomp and myself on the winning side a whopping twice.

This is getting ludicrously unfun to play - Just got my tax return and wanted to go full Phoenix even despite the last several days but ill be holding on to my money and free time until something is done about this. Im done being cattle for the clown chimp 4 man GG CLOSE squads. Let the tryhards talk **** to eachother all day, there should be a conscious choice to subject yourself to that BS not get it almost every game.

As some of you know I was a relatively active member of the forums in the last couple months and tried to help out by doing some actual testing / bug reporting / and cash funding (over $200 invested already) and I am completely and utterly done wasting my time and patience only to get trolled 24/7. Ill be back when there is a change, solo queue preferably or even lobbies I dont care. Getting punished for having med-high ELO by getting thrown in the lot with group players nearly every game isnt going to work. If I could opt out of ELO I would...........

[Victor Morson]

ELO never worked right and it's incredibly stupid they put that ahead of tonnage. At least then you might be more likely to get an even game out of it.

The problem is most 4 mans will be rolling in powerful PPC meta, well, shredding anyone that's not... in particular if they're vastly under tonned.

Don't worry though, Paul's alpha fix will nerf all the PUG 'mechs while leaving the current top contenders A-OK so prepare for more pain.

[Sephlock]

I'll settle for one of these.



Beware my mighty war cry: MOOOooOooooooooOooooooOOO!!!!

[SirLANsalot]

Easy....make some friends.

Even when I solo que I get some bad games too, but I get genrally some decent games due to my own performance in my mechs. I have a few that if I take them its almost a gurenteed win if I live though the battles, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't (mechs are a Heavy Metal with 3LL, and a Cata 4x with 4 AC5 2 ML so no stupid LOL PPC). If you get a few kills on your own, then you will win most games, if you can't even manage that, or are a very poor shot, you WILL lose every game.

When I PUG group (as in not with my unit) the games can be very interesting based on who I am with and how the ELO system "balances" us out based on our mech classes we are taking.


Also, the game generally dose take 2 4 Mans and pits them against eachother, never dose it stack them on one side without doing the same on the other. 4 Mans are seen by the system as such, regardless of how many people are actually in the group, it then takes the players and fills in the gaps if a 4 man isn't full. So if the game pits 4, 4 mans against eachother, 2 on one side might be full, and the other side might be 2, 2 mans but they "count" as 4 mans in the systems eyes. I have also seen pure grouped teams (3 groups on each side) with 2 3 mans and 1 2 man filling out ABC lances.

[valkyrie]

Say what you will about Call of Duty, but the Mercenary Team Deathmatch playlists in MW2 was a stroke of genius. No grouping, PUGs only. It was a great idea and kept solo players from being disposable NPCs for organized groups. I'd much rather get that as a separate queue than 1PV only/3PV and 1PV queues.

[Corvus Antaka]

Sorry as much as I know the PUG frustration, I have spent the past week primarily pugging 75% of my games and while a roll sucks, it happens, and generally less often than I expect. ELO and pugging is seemingly working quite well for me despite sometimes grabbing players way off the bracket to fill a slot.

[Ralgas]

Bob, just out of curiosity what is your win/loss ratio? It might be frustrating sure but if you're running .9->1.1 i'd say it's fairly well on the money.....

[One Medic Army]

I play PUG, and I play grouped.
From my personal experiences, you face groups far more often when grouped than when you're solo.

Or in other words if you're facing a team, you probably have a team on your side as well, quit kvetching.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Well I see the usual suspects are here to dilute your argumanrts as always. They have a profit motive in doing that but its very similar to whats happening in the economy. Full of bluster and printing but weak on fundementals. Everyone I got to join quit for the resons the OP mentions and I play less and less because of it. In the long veiw its not wise to keep using newbies and pugs as cattle so I am of the mind to stop trying and let them kill the game by themselves. Out of 7 I got to join 7 left and with me that makes 8 people who would not reccomend the game to anyone. Yep thats the way to build a bussiness I tell ya. Like most everything else today it lacks common sense. Of course spending huge amounts of money on a game with limited chances of success shows a complete lack of common sense also so expect those heavily invested to show none and ignore the obvious. We all see the chats and we all see how many names come and go never to be seen again. They all tell you to take up the challenge except they form in bands, concentrate fire and steamroll every day. Yep real challenge there. They are lying about thier intentions because there is no challenge to pug stomping. These guys are all counting on big bankrolls when the game launches so they can dominate then. Thats all it is greed and weakness covered in fancy colors, badges and clan lore. When I came back off my first combat tour I looked diffently at the clowns with all the ribbons and crisp uniforms full of bluster with nothing to back it up. Never wore my decorations and even got spanked for it. Didn't matter. When you see frauds anywhere no one who did the actual deed wants to be a part of them,

[Lykaon]

Guess you missed the time PGI caved and divided the ques into 8 player mandatory and up to 4 max ?

And as a solo player you have no idea how much of a pain in the marble bag it is to keep 8 man mandatory sized groups running for exstended (read as more than three matches) periods.

Also as a solo player you may be unaware that 8 v 8 mandatory group size que matches are nearly 100% try hard of don't show types of affairs.

So do not test new builds in 8 v 8
Do not grind chassis XP in 8 v 8.Only pilot your mastered chassis
And certainly only bring the most cheese monster builds available because the other guys will certainly be doing that.
And certainly do not expect to see the variety of chassis and loadouts seen in non 8 mandatory group ques.
And if you are not a better player than the other available players do not expect to be in the 8 man group (common with many but not all organized groups)

Also as a solo only player you are probably unaware that 4 man groups lose.Yep they lose they get ROFL stomped and fairly often.

With such a limited exposure to the other aspects of grouping and 8 player mandatory ques you may not have noticed that there is currently a fundimental flaw within MWo game design.

This flaw is with 8 v 8 (in any format) the team that lands the lead in kills first is the likely victor and victory is likely to be a landslide.

Observe the matches and you will see this happens.Now pay attention when it's a close match.I bet you the situation is kill for team A then kill for team B then A then B then one team gets a lead and wins.

Now the current problem is Alpha strike PPC/GAUSS/AC20 meta leads to quick unforgiving matches where the quick lead is accomplished in a handful of trigger pulls.

You do not need a premade to land quick and dirty kills with quad PPC stalkers or the AC40 Jaeger you only need the basics of talent or luck.

[Lykaon]

Mudhutwarrior, on 14 July 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

Well I see the usual suspects are here to dilute your argumanrts as always. They have a profit motive in doing that but its very similar to whats happening in the economy. Full of bluster and printing but weak on fundementals. Everyone I got to join quit for the resons the OP mentions and I play less and less because of it. In the long veiw its not wise to keep using newbies and pugs as cattle so I am of the mind to stop trying and let them kill the game by themselves. Out of 7 I got to join 7 left and with me that makes 8 people who would not reccomend the game to anyone. Yep thats the way to build a bussiness I tell ya. Like most everything else today it lacks common sense. Of course spending huge amounts of money on a game with limited chances of success shows a complete lack of common sense also so expect those heavily invested to show none and ignore the obvious. We all see the chats and we all see how many names come and go never to be seen again. They all tell you to take up the challenge except they form in bands, concentrate fire and steamroll every day. Yep real challenge there. They are lying about thier intentions because there is no challenge to pug stomping. These guys are all counting on big bankrolls when the game launches so they can dominate then. Thats all it is greed and weakness covered in fancy colors, badges and clan lore. When I came back off my first combat tour I looked diffently at the clowns with all the ribbons and crisp uniforms full of bluster with nothing to back it up. Never wore my decorations and even got spanked for it. Didn't matter. When you see frauds anywhere no one who did the actual deed wants to be a part of them,

Well I doubt anyone could change your mind but I will out right say you are wrong (not entirely but just mostly)

Team work will always grant an advantage to the side that has it or executes team work more effectivley. The format of the game we have now plays to this strength.If there was some other play style that existed you may have an arguement but there is no other format than 2 teams vs each other.

I am not going to stop using a hammer to drive nails when the people using rocks find they have inferior results.

If I offer the hammer and it is refused I will not be taking any complaints about rocks seriously (refuse to group and it's on you not me)

The constant complaints from PUGs/Solos/Lone Wolves about premade pug stomps are presented with no actual evidence.These complaints are plain and simple conjecture!
Is every 8-0 match a pug stomp by premades? No. Do they try to sell us that as fact? yes!
The only people with diffinative numbers are PGI and they have yet to comment in detail about actual ratios of pug stomps by premades vs pugstomps by pugs.

I will out right say it.The opinions presented about grouping by players that do not group lack any validity due to a distinct lack of actual experiences with grouping.
I could yell all day all night that apples taste like gasoline to people who have eaten apples and guess what? they will think I'm wrong because I have obviously never eaten an apple.


I am possitive that even if there was a further marginalization of group players the solo only crowd would still be pitching fits about ROFL stomps and demand some other changes.This is because of my first point.Team work wins team games! not everyone can win and here is the harsh reality some of the players of this game are actually bad at it.No amount of division of ques or matchmaking will make a hopeless case into an ace that is entirely up to the player to achieve.


Now the part you have right.PGI needs to ease up on the learning curve new players experience.As it is now a new player is a bloody pot roast thrown into a shark tank.

MWo needs a more engaging training mode to allow limited solo play to ease new pilots into combat.

There must be an intergrated voice chat system for everyone.I feel this would go a long way towards creating a team out of 8 players even if 4 are already a group.I am sick of half of a team being 4 guys doing whatever I am sick of not being able to say "lookout" and just watch my team mate get blindsided.

I am not apposed to a non contributing (out side of CW) death match where everyone is vs everyone and is of course solo que only.I am however apposed to team based warfare having team work removed.

P.S. What is this profit you speak of or these huge bankrolls? how does a huge bankroll dominate in a game where money is free? Once you have something you have it forever.If I had 1 C-Bill or a trillion my mechs I own cost me nothing.

Seriously PGI has already given out generous new player payout bonuses that will get you any mech with any possible loadout in 20 games or less.If I have 1 C-bill and a tricked out assault mech and some other guy has 5 billion and a tricked out assault mech how does his mech perform better? does it shoot imaginary robot dollars or something?

[WildeKarde]

Well I'm not so sure any of can prove this doesn't happen. I dropped online for a couple of games and the last one I played I think we got a bad example of what can happen.

The match was on forest and the enemy team seemed I think included 5 DC atlas all the the exact same build of 2 LRM20's, AC20 and ECM. They all came up at same speed, not close together so they could cover each other. We got hammered.

My treb couldn't last long enough. I don't even think we have the same number of assaults either.

Now what are the chances on that not being a co-ordinated group/drop/whatever. Pretty low I'd say.

[Chemie]

When I am pugging I can tell from the launch screen it will be one-sided.

Here is how you can tell:

The other team has some combinations of:
1. Larger number of founders (not a given but does at least tell you they have been around a while and know what they are doing)
2. at least 1 of a 4-man (as told but the house affiliation)
3. Several names you recognize as being good

and on your side you see
1. several trial mechs (I mean, really, MM ELO is really screwed up)
2. a bunch of lights (and likely other team way out tons you)
3. No premades on your side.
4. at start, several non-lights all scatter in different directions
5. At start, the lights stay with the assaults and don't scout. I mean, you are the one who took that 4X and now you stand under the Atlas' legs?
6. You get a DC at start

What surprises me is just how I am always on the wrong team (about 4:1 ratio when puggin).

What is worse is that regardless of win/loss it is almost always 8-0 game and not fun. I would say about 1 in 20 games are "close" which is what I had hoped ELO would give more of.
a 4-man light on your sid eleaves you under tonned and a 4-man assault team on other side has 16 PC raining down on your stupid pugs.

Edited by Chemie, 14 July 2013 - 04:41 AM.

[jakucha]

Ralgas, on 13 July 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

Bob, just out of curiosity what is your win/loss ratio? It might be frustrating sure but if you're running .9->1.1 i'd say it's fairly well on the money.....

Yep. I would like a solo que too, but at the same time if you're complaining you should back up how bad of a time you're having with your win/loss ratio. From what I've seen it manages to keep it pretty close to 1.0 for pure pug

Edited by jakucha, 14 July 2013 - 04:36 AM.

[El Bandito]

I advocate solodrop only queue in addition to group queue. Makes the game much better experience.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 July 2013 - 05:06 AM.

[meteorol]

Chemie, on 14 July 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

When I am pugging I can tell from the launch screen it will be one-sided.
.....

The sad thing is this is 100% true.
Check out the teams at the start of the match, and watch what your team is doing in the first 15 seconds.
You pretty much know for sure you will lose the match if you see certain things (you mentioned some of them).
It's somewhat hilarious that you can predict a bash for your team with a accurateness of like 75% during the first 15 sec of a match.

[Diablobo]

I think the matchmaker failures are a bigger problem than the PPC/LRM or whatever other weapon balance issues they claim there are. Having no lights on your team in Conquest is a matchmaker failure. Having assaults and heavies go up against mediums and heavies is a failure. Having trial mechs on one side only is a failure.

The matchmaker is a failure, and because it doesn't properly balance the matches to begin with, all the ELO this or PPC that in the world is not going to make one bit of difference.

Edited by Diablobo, 14 July 2013 - 06:53 AM.

[BillyM]

Additionally, those of us running 4-mans are helping CAUSE the MatchMaker issues. I am seeing increasing numbers of super-heavy (3A-1H) verified 4-mans (I keep TS3 up on the two more popular channels and do a quick scan at launch) in the evenings. We have proven this to cause fits within MatchMaker, often bringing in the ever-common "why are all the assaults on my team in Trials?" or "wow, we were short 275tons, and the other team had 4 founders in Atlas/Stalkers".

I implore you 4-mans, please do what you can to balance the weight of your group. You already have a HUGE advantage with voice chat so take the opportunity to run some "fun" builds without all hopping on the latest meta-wagon build. Those people you are continually stomping with your 2 Atlas 2 Highlander PPC firing-squad line are the ones who will help us support this game financially. If we as teams continue to face-pound them mercilessly, there won't be a game left before too long.

That said, can we trust premade groups to drop within reason and help MatchMaker actually match us against deserving opponents? I honestly don't think so. It's gamer nature to grab the strongest build possible, and something we likely can't break folks of...

...that is why I agree we need a solo queue. We did it to ourselves.

--billyM (75% premade drops, runs mediums 90% of the time)

[Jestun]

A solo queue would be an awful change.

It punishes people who play with a friend or two (who are not necessarily perfectly co-ordinated military strategists) by forcing the matchmaker to try to find matches for them in a smaller player pool.

It has to match the right team sizes together, while also trying to balance ELO and weights.

There are only 2 possible outcomes:

1. The queue gets longer
2. The matchmaker criteria are relaxed resulting in less balanced matches.



You do not punish people for playing a multiplayer game with their friends.

:edit:

And as for people being on the same faction meaning you "know" they are a pre-made - laughable.

Edited by Jestun, 14 July 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I think I have to agree that there should be a solo cue. The problem is that even a 4 man premade, with Voice is going to completely dominate against true PUGs. I see it happen all the time, especially since these 4 mans like to brag about their win when they sweep the enemy.

With this sort of imbalance, drastic measures need to be taken and since you can't remove the groups from the game, just remove them form the gamemode.

Also you shouldn't be forced to group to enjoy this game so "make friends" is kind of a BS response to those people asking for a solo que especially when adding a solo only que has zero effect on overall game play. I mean you the player then get to chose, que up solo or que up group.

Note: Solo players could still que up to group play if they wanted and they would be auto added to any group under 4 players. This way a group of 3 people could still easily drop into a game because their 4th would be filled by solo players LFG.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 14 July 2013 - 09:35 AM.