464 replies to this topic

[S3dition]

Appogee, on 16 July 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

I have found different game engines affect me differently.

Anything built on the UNREAL engine will give me motion sickness. I can overcome it if I eat ginger, which is known to assist sea-sickness.

But I am fine with MWO and CryEngine based games, thank goodness. So jump-sniping in MWO or MWLL is no issue for me.

The only game I've had an issue with is STALKER. The weapon bob made me queezy.

Also, patch day means corn for the chicken littles. To be fair, I haven't tested the patch yet, but from the forum replies, I get the feeling that everyone with a broken laser boat is crying because their exploit is gone .

Not that laser boats bothered me overly much. I hugged a few 6x ppc stalkers to death

You think this heat mechanic is bad? I wish they actually implemented the board game. How about ammo explosions BEFORE you even fill your meter?

The shutdown mechanic does NOT prevent damage to the mech, and the pilot can still roast alive before the safety triggers. It's made to prevent the fusion reactor from destabilizing and making a big, thermonuclear crater.

[Belorion]

Appogee, on 16 July 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

I have found different game engines affect me differently.

Anything built on the UNREAL engine will give me motion sickness. I can overcome it if I eat ginger, which is known to assist sea-sickness.

But I am fine with MWO and CryEngine based games, thank goodness. So jump-sniping in MWO or MWLL is no issue for me.

I am both lucky and unlucky that nausea isn't a completely accurate description of what it does to me. Vertigo is a closer descriptor. Kind of like the feeling you get when falling happens in my head and I have a very hard time even looking at it. Lemmings signature image does the same thing to me. I am sure looking at it long enough would make me sick to my stomach, but I can't even make myself look at it that long.

[Chronojam]

S3dition, on 16 July 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

Also, patch day means corn for the chicken littles. To be fair, I haven't tested the patch yet, but from the forum replies, I get the feeling that everyone with a broken laser boat is crying because their exploit is gone .

Not that laser boats bothered me overly much. I hugged a few 6x ppc stalkers to death

Look at this guy. Look at this guy right here, with the insultingly bad opinion that laser boats are "exploits" that had to be fixed. Look at this guy, who insults your sensibilities by conflating the gimmick 6 PPC Stalker with a proper "laser boat." Look at this guy implying we should be happy with an unintuitive, from-whole-cloth "balancing mechanic" in lieu of understood mechanics that were present in tabletop and prior MechWarrior titles for handling ammo explosions since somehow those older systems are worse to him. Now, look away from such nonsense and do not waste your time giving such posts from such posters consideration ever again.

S3dition, on 16 July 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

The shutdown mechanic does NOT prevent damage to the mech, and the pilot can still roast alive before the safety triggers. It's made to prevent the fusion reactor from destabilizing and making a big, thermonuclear crater.

Seriously? Seriously? We can't take you seriously when you say things like this.

[nopempele]

Nerfed my 3LL builds, buffed my SRM medium builds tremendously. Guys, do you even have game designers?

[S3dition]

Chronojam, on 16 July 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Look at this guy. Look at this guy right here, with the insultingly bad opinion that laser boats are "exploits" that had to be fixed. Look at this guy, who insults your sensibilities by conflating the gimmick 6 PPC Stalker with a proper "laser boat." Look at this guy implying we should be happy with an unintuitive, from-whole-cloth "balancing mechanic" in lieu of understood mechanics that were present in tabletop and prior MechWarrior titles for handling ammo explosions since somehow those older systems are worse to him. Now, look away from such nonsense and do not waste your time giving such posts from such posters consideration ever again.


Seriously? Seriously? We can't take you seriously when you say things like this.

Opinionated much? Funny how I type "I wish they implemented the board game" and you respond with " in lieu of understood mechanics that were present in tabletop and prior MechWarrior titles for handling ammo explosions since somehow those older systems are worse to him."

It's also funny how almost every post was "PPC's are destroying the game FIXTHEMNOWORDIE!"

Now that they're fixed: "OMG WHY YOU FIX PPC! UNFIX NOW!!!"

Oh, and try not to tell people how and what to think. It's both condescending and assumes they can't figure it out for themselves .

And for the record, the battletech board game is full of fatal design flaws. I could get into how going from a 6 to 7 is far worse than going from a 7 to 8 when rolling 2d6 (a bad statistical flaw). Or how it's not intuitive for new users. But I'll just point to the used up husk of FASA that Microsoft keeps in the broom closet... just in case they can squeeze a little pocket money out of companies like PGI. Battletech is fun but not perfect, and should not be treated as such. MWO is taking a good foundation and, overall, moving in a good direction.

Edited by S3dition, 16 July 2013 - 01:12 PM.

[Warge]

nopempele, on 16 July 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Guys, do you even have game designers?

This is not the matter of design, it's the matter of balance. The work for two different persons: one for humanitarian mind, other - for scientific one, imho.

Edited by Warge, 16 July 2013 - 01:12 PM.

[Vincent Quatermain]

mint frog, on 16 July 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

It's still astonishing that you guys fell for that "the shake gives me motion sickness" line. The pop tarters have no problem playing the rest of the game that is constantly rocking with explosions and laser fire, but a little bouncing reticule leaves you with a queasy tumtum?

No, actually, some people were getting motion sick. One of my group's cadet instructors had to quit playing JJ mechs entirely due to motion sickness. But, it doesn't affect you, so it must not be real, right?

Jerk.

[Chronojam]

S3dition, on 16 July 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Opinionated much? Funny how I type "I wish they implemented the board game" and you respond with " in lieu of understood mechanics that were present in tabletop and prior MechWarrior titles for handling ammo explosions since somehow those older systems are worse to him."

It's also funny how almost every post was "PPC's are destroying the game FIXTHEMNOWORDIE!"

Now that they're fixed: "OMG WHY YOU FIX PPC! UNFIX NOW!!!"

Oh, and try not to tell people how and what to think. It's both condescending and assumes they can't figure it out for themselves .

It is a tragic misconception to think the PPC itself is destroying the game. That is not the case. Nor is it the Gauss Rifle that is destroying the game. It is easy to see complaints about the current high-alpha long-range metagame and lock focus on the PPC because it is a bargain weapon, a prime offender, and very visually distinct (coupled with notable 4, 5, 6 PPC gimmick Stalker builds).

Consider that removing the PPC would not fix the problem because PPCs are not the problem. This should lead one to consider that perhaps it is not the PPC itself that is at fault.

Consider that removing the PPC in an attempt to fix the problem should be met with criticism and skepticism, because PPCs are not the problem.

Also fusion reactors do not cause a nuclear explosion as a failure state. You make yourself look foolish when you say such things. It's like calling a 6-PPC gimmick Stalker a "laser boat," or saying that laser boats had "exploits." Nobody can take you seriously when you say such things!

[kesuga7]

Since the last patch after motion sickness got toned downed...
I didn't think it was even a problem anymore because even for my eyes it seemed okay but i guess everyone's different


Large Laser did not need a heat penalty though - i mean at least make it 3 large lasers until heat penalty hits you

From what i know there are allot of 3/three large laser mechs in battletech and with very few 3+ ppc mechs

Has Salvation come to abolish the ac 40 jaggers and ppc boats??!!?!?

Have our patch prayers been answered?!

Praise Russ!




@vincent was that pre-july 16 patch?
or before when it first got introduced?

Edited by kesuga7, 16 July 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Phobic Wraith]

Thontor, on 16 July 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Shutting down significantly reduces the damage. To the point where it's pretty much inconsequential.

I think it's a great, and much needed, mechanic

What's a new player going to think? How about "maybe I should learn to manage my heat so I don't kill myself"

I agree that a mechanic is needed, but this heat scale is... silly. You said it right there "it's pretty much inconsequential"
So is heat damage going to change PPC boats? Not if the damage is inconsequential. Sho what's PGI going to do? Make the damage consequential. And the tuning will continue until there is no point shutting down because it is a choice between standing still and taking damage, or moving while taking damage.

I seriously hope it does work, but I don't think it will. Pinpoint alphas are a problem and something should be done. I just think that this isn't a good road to travel down. I can't see an end in sight.

[S3dition]

Chronojam, on 16 July 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

It is a tragic misconception to think the PPC itself is destroying the game. That is not the case. Nor is it the Gauss Rifle that is destroying the game. It is easy to see complaints about the current high-alpha long-range metagame and lock focus on the PPC because it is a bargain weapon, a prime offender, and very visually distinct (coupled with notable 4, 5, 6 PPC gimmick Stalker builds).

Consider that removing the PPC would not fix the problem because PPCs are not the problem. This should lead one to consider that perhaps it is not the PPC itself that is at fault.

Consider that removing the PPC in an attempt to fix the problem should be met with criticism and skepticism, because PPCs are not the problem.

Also fusion reactors do not cause a nuclear explosion as a failure state. You make yourself look foolish when you say such things. It's like calling a 6-PPC gimmick Stalker a "laser boat," or saying that laser boats had "exploits." Nobody can take you seriously when you say such things!

1) It was tongue in cheek. Heat in general hasn't been a big issue because it doesn't have all the penalties associated that it's supposed. Thus, all your "super special built, one-pilot-in-a-million worthy, one trick pony, not 6x ppc laser boast" have had to worry about is shutting down for a minuscule amount of time. This lead to people racking up PPC's that could nuke mechs in just a couple of hits. Or in the case of mechs with XL engines, as little as one shot.

2) The point of the game was never to find the most broken, one-click win weapon to stack together. There is a reason why the vast majority of mechs have more than one weapon type. Boating, in and of itself, is against much of the canon in the game.

3)That was also tongue in cheek:

Quote

Fusion engines usually will only shut down if damaged, and they are absolutely no risk of being a fusion bomb. There have been a number of cases of fusion engines being "over revved" and exploding with devestating force, but this is more akin to a boiler explosion than a true nuclear explosion. More often a destroyed engine will be punctured by weapons fire. Because the plasma is held in a vacuum chamber (to isolate the superheated plasma from the cold walls of the reactor; contact with the walls would super-chill the plasma below fusion temperatures), a punctured reactor can suck in air where the air is superheated. Normal thermal expansion of the air causes the air to burst out in a brilliant lightshow often mistaken for a "nuclear explosion". The Thermal Expansion damages anything within 90 meters of the destroyed 'Mech.

You need to seriously calm down a bit. It's the internet. :/

Edited by S3dition, 16 July 2013 - 01:25 PM.

[Lemming]

S3dition, on 16 July 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

1) It was tongue in cheek. Heat in general hasn't been a big issue because it doesn't have all the penalties associated that it's supposed. Thus, all your "super special built, one-pilot-in-a-million worthy, one trick pony, not 6x ppc laser boast" have had to worry about is shutting down for a minuscule amount of time. This lead to people racking up PPC's that could nuke mechs in just a couple of hits. Or in the case of mechs with XL engines, as little as one shot.

2) The point of the game was never to find the most broken, one-click win weapon to stack together. There is a reason why the vast majority of mechs have more than one weapon type. Boating, in and of itself, is against much of the canon in the game.

3)That was also tongue in cheek:



You need to seriously calm down a bit. It's the internet. :/

[Redacted]

The heat change does nothing to fix the metagame, which is the core problem. Boats are not the problem. This does nothing to change the dynamic where sniping is way better overall than brawling; bringing a brawler in this game is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. You may be strong up close, but you die before you get there. This is an issue that is not caused solely by the current strength of the PPC, and the heat change does not address this dynamic in any way.

It's also completely unintuitive. It does nothing but serve to make the game more confusing and impenetrable to newer player.

[Redacted]

Edited by Niko Snow, 16 July 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[Chronojam]

S3dition, on 16 July 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

You need to seriously calm down a bit. It's the internet. :/

It's something we paid money for. You should be upset about a business you (and all your friends) gave real money to if they abruptly change gears and devalue the merchandise with a very clear lack of direction that you suspect will lead in further devaluation. You should be upset with people encouraging these kinds of destructive decisions.

[Tarl Cabot]

Lemming, I am glad that awesome is rated PG 13...

[Kaeldric]

What we need to deal with the Alpha strikers is what kept them out of the TT version of the game. Bad Things^TM happening LONG before the heat scale ever hit max. Even low heat levels got you a reduced movement and weapon accuracy. These scaled up as the heat went up with chances of ammo cook off and shut down tossed in at medium and high heat levels.

Let's share that JJ reticle shudder with the high heat builds. The hotter you run, the more your crosshairs jump around as the heat affects the gyro stablization systems. And of course the myomer muscles and actuators that move our mechs are NOT going to function at full capacity beyond their designed heat tolerances. Throw a bit of random factor into the shutdown points and you suddenly make the 99% heat builds alot scarier to run. And I sooooo want to see the AC40 goobers blowing themselves to kingdom come when their heat shenanigans and the RNG nets them an ammo explosion

Note that in the above suggestion I pointed my finger at the alpha strikers, NOT the boaters. Boats without alpha strike capability are just limited role builds that sometimes shine but usually get powned when a more versital build can pull out a rock, paper, OR scissors to their single answer.

[Chronojam]

S3dition, on 16 July 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

How do you devalue pixels? It had no resale value when you bought it. It still has no resell value. But I enjoy the game, so I guess it's more valuable to me?

Making a game worse decreases its value, this is pretty straightforward. Making the gameplay harder to penetrate for new players decreases the value; some nights it is literally impossible to find an 8-man match despite trying for over half an hour. Because this game relies on active players as a strictly multiplayer game, anything that causes players to become frustrated and leave (or never decide to stick around) devalues the game.

Really, you can't continually say such stupid things and expect to be taken seriously. "Value" is not strictly tied to resale asking price, and the nostalgia factor and branding is probably one of the only reasons this free to play title has not already fallen apart -- sheer sentimental value keeps a lot of players hoping things will turn around.

Maybe if it were a better game your friends would want to play instead of taking one look and deciding it's not worth it.

[Lemming]

Azzras, on 16 July 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Please do not use new players as a scaptegoat for your ineptitudes.

The fact that you think I'm trying to cover up for my own shortcomings shows that you're missing the entire point of the argument.

The new player experience is very important. If a game isn't fun and doesn't convey its game mechanics well, then people are going to stop playing and play a better game. It's part of the reason why the developers are doing 3rd person; it's a really bad idea, but at least their rationale is that they want to implement it to help new players.

A massive problem with the heat change is how nonsensical and unintuitive it is. If you explain to a new player that every time a weapon fires, it generates heat, and that over a certain level of heat, your mech shuts down and you start to receive damage, so you need to manage your heat, it's straightforward and makes sense. It allows for an extra dimension to the game and is a fun mechanic.

Then when you tell them well actually if you fire too many weapons of the same type then the amount of heat increases, but it doesn't if you wait a little bit, not that long but sort of long, and each weapon has a different limit as to how many weapons you can fire really close together, but also the amount of heat is different for every type of weapon that you fire too close together, it stops making sense unless you already have a good grasp of how everything works. It's really hard to explain to somebody who's not already very familiar with the heat system. It's not a good solution.

[hammerreborn]

Phobic Wraith, on 16 July 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

I agree that a mechanic is needed, but this heat scale is... silly. You said it right there "it's pretty much inconsequential"
So is heat damage going to change PPC boats? Not if the damage is inconsequential. Sho what's PGI going to do? Make the damage consequential. And the tuning will continue until there is no point shutting down because it is a choice between standing still and taking damage, or moving while taking damage.

I seriously hope it does work, but I don't think it will. Pinpoint alphas are a problem and something should be done. I just think that this isn't a good road to travel down. I can't see an end in sight.

It's only inconsequential to people who barely shutdown, just passing the 100% mark. The new system is mainly to punish those who start up, full on ppc alpha, shut down, repeat, typically by pop tarting so the whole "oh noes defenseless" isn't a valid argument.

If you fire 4 ppcs with the current penalties at 90%...you're gonna have a bad time taking that damage for 10-15 seconds.

[Ken Fury]

Lemming, on 16 July 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

The fact that you think I'm trying to cover up for my own shortcomings shows that you're missing the entire point of the argument.

The new player experience is very important. If a game isn't fun and doesn't convey its game mechanics well, then people are going to stop playing and play a better game. It's part of the reason why the developers are doing 3rd person; it's a really bad idea, but at least their rationale is that they want to implement it to help new players.

A massive problem with the heat change is how nonsensical and unintuitive it is. If you explain to a new player that every time a weapon fires, it generates heat, and that over a certain level of heat, your mech shuts down and you start to receive damage, so you need to manage your heat, it's straightforward and makes sense. It allows for an extra dimension to the game and is a fun mechanic.

Then when you tell them well actually if you fire too many weapons of the same type then the amount of heat increases, but it doesn't if you wait a little bit, not that long but sort of long, and each weapon has a different limit as to how many weapons you can fire really close together, but also the amount of heat is different for every type of weapon that you fire too close together, it stops making sense unless you already have a good grasp of how everything works. It's really hard to explain to somebody who's not already very familiar with the heat system. It's not a good solution.

This, simply this.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Well I yanked my lrm15s from my quickdraw and shoved in a pair of SSRM6s, swaped to a standard engine and squeezed in a couple more medium lasers went to forest colony. At least with ART+srms it felt pretty solid I got two kills and managed not to die (though we pretty much rolled the other guys 1 to 8 score) though still have that stupid tube problem.


SWOOM BOOM BOOM 'put' as 11 missiles are fired from my launchers, fallowed by little billy the special srm, hes a little slow.