419 replies to this topic

[Zypher]

Farix, on 22 July 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Arguing that capping really has no point other than trolling a win is just being stubborn, ignorant, or extremely shortsighted. You want Assault to be Team Death Match, but Assault is not Team Death Match and no amount of complaining will change that.

Can MWO use more game mode? Of course. But PGI is probably waiting until after launch when there is a large enough population to support more game modes.

And the is the problem, there are no other game modes, and for over a year, at least since I was in beta, nothing significant has changed. And my point is, if you ever play on premades, there is only one type of game, and it's team death match. Premades are usually organized enough that attempting a cap is a usually a waste of time as it almost always fails and costs the team attempting to do so. Capping only works in pubs because of skill and coordination, outside of that capping costs you, and even if you win you inflate your ELO and hardly get any cash, although for anyone who plays regularly that is also a moot point.

So yeah, I stand by what I said, capping is pointless, at least where and when I play. If you can provide me with any significant reason why capping provides any benefit over attrition I might be able to see your point.

I get that you like the game and think this piece of it holds some substance, I can respect that. The only reason I am even here debating this is because the game at it's core is awesome and so is the genre, so I would love see it do more. Right now it's damn boring, I am surprised I made it over 1000 games.

The cap points should provide 1 time reloads and have walls or something, maybe to force some bawling. Maybe these are bad examples, but small changes could do a world for an otherwise worthless and slightly distracting mechanic.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Sprouticus, on 23 July 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

First and foremost, getting more than 4 will be tough without sync dropping. If you are in the 12 man queue and you let them cap race you in 12 spiders, you deserve to lose. Even in a PUG game, if you fail to see 8 spiders base rushing, you need more scouting.

Aside from that:

• Spider hit boxes are a known issue, hopefully they will fix them.
  
• Alpine is really the only map where this could occur regularly.
  
• Atry strikes will get a buff, hopefully that would hellp
  
• I have already stated in the test thread that think they need to up the cap timer when 12 mans go into effect to mitigate this (or possibly max out the rate of capping).

Well what we're discussing is a meta shift.

Right now the meta is to do tons of damage and murder the opposing team. Winning isn't the end-game, the end-game is your personal score and mauling the opposing team. Winning is generally the outcome from the team that does that better.

CW introduces a new meta; it's the "I want more planets and loyalty points" meta.

And in that meta, your entire goal is to win the game and win quickly.

So what happens when people realize that the best way to accomplish that is by capping as quickly as possible?

Well guess what, the odds on seeing more light teams with cap accelerators suddely goes up.

Just like now we see TONS of assault mechs. Seeing 2 teams drop with 6+ assault mechs in a game is not unheard of at all.

As an aside, the last part of your post is important.

Cap times need to be adjusted. They need to scale with map size, probably shouldn't go active until 4-5 minutes into a match. And bases should probably have some kind of defenses.

Capping needs to be a lot more dynamic.

The whole game does really.

[Ngamok]

IceSerpent, on 20 July 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Aeten, your main mistake is that you apprently think that people care about c-bill/xp rewards. Only new players do and only for a few weeks. Everybody who has been playing longer than that is practically swimming in those "rewards", so the only thing that matters is win/loss.

While I have been playing since August, I still want the rewards. I don't play for 8 hours a day like some people. I have 30 mechs in my mechbay and buying new ones to master because that's all there is in this game to do at the moment required C-Bills.

Is capping fun? For some people who think it's fun to troll the Stalker-Atlas heavy team sure. Like I have said in the past, for me it's no pilot a giant stompy robot to fight other giant stompy robots. But since we don't have TDM, what am I supposed to do? I don't complain if 1-4 lights want to run to base on Tourmaline or Alpine and try to cap while we are fighting. I'll take the loss, I don't care.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 July 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Yeah but my debate is a light team shouldn't be dropping against an assault team.

The problem comes down to the fact that if capping takes over CW; you are going to see two teams standing at their starting points not doing anything.

And if 4 YLW destroy an entire side by themselves, there was a major skill discrepancy.

I just came out of a drop where my side was down 3 Mechs (one no show, Spider and Catapult DCed) We were 2-3 salvos away from winning but they got 750 points before our Phract could vent his heat. MHarmless... <S> you rule sir!

As to skill discrepancy... sometimes you are the windshield sometimes you are the bug!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 23 July 2013 - 07:24 AM.

[Ngamok]

OneEyed Jack, on 20 July 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Because bigger rewards just lead to entire teams actively attempting to dodge the enemy and rush the base. Even the ***** trolls who get their rocks off by telling themselves they are doing anything more than boring people to death with base-rushing would get quickly bored of it when it's all anyone does in 75% or more of matches.

Exactly right. If you ever played World of Warcraft, Alterac Valley turned into this when people found that rushing to each others base and trying to win was better than fighting it out for the capture points. DUmbest thing they ever did to that game was allow this. Then they changed it to where if you took out the towers, you'd have 1 less captain in the general room.

[zraven7]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 July 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Well what we're discussing is a meta shift.

Right now the meta is to do tons of damage and murder the opposing team. Winning isn't the end-game, the end-game is your personal score and mauling the opposing team. Winning is generally the outcome from the team that does that better.

CW introduces a new meta; it's the "I want more planets and loyalty points" meta.

And in that meta, your entire goal is to win the game and win quickly.

So what happens when people realize that the best way to accomplish that is by capping as quickly as possible?

Well guess what, the odds on seeing more light teams with cap accelerators suddely goes up.

Just like now we see TONS of assault mechs. Seeing 2 teams drop with 6+ assault mechs in a game is not unheard of at all.

As an aside, the last part of your post is important.

Cap times need to be adjusted. They need to scale with map size, probably shouldn't go active until 4-5 minutes into a match. And bases should probably have some kind of defenses.

Capping needs to be a lot more dynamic.

The whole game does really.

And I'm agreeing with Nick again. This is just getting weird.

Either way, yeah, once CW hits, base capping is going to explode, and if they dont scale capture time by map size, things are going to just get plain silly on Tourmaline and Alpine.

This is why it's important to practice using and defending against base-rushing NOW. This whole open-beta period is essentially the star league pilots training in their down-time. This is where you have a chance to learn tricks and tactics without it costing anyone anything. Heck, even your KD is going to be reset on full launch, so try some crazy stuff. Experiment.

And remember, there are a lot of us Light Pilots out there. I will happily form up a 4 man light lance and make life unpleasant for people once CW starts.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 July 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Capping needs to be a lot more dynamic.

The whole game does really.

On this we agree. But to get this everyone has to think differently than TDM.

[hammerreborn]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 July 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

On this we agree. But to get this everyone has to think differently than TDM.

I wish there was TDM so I could troll every match in various hiding spots.

Know where pretty much no one will find you? That one really deep spot in River City by the bridge, that you can fit a commando or spider in and can't be seen (or really shot since the water blocks it!). Power down, laugh.

Let's face it, anti-cappers will become anti-hiders which is just a disguise for hating light mechs because they take effort to kill rather than ppcblobwarrior online.

Edited by hammerreborn, 23 July 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 July 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

I just came out of a drop where my side was down 3 Mechs (one no show, Spider and Catapult DCed) We were 2-3 salvos away from winning but they got 750 points before our Phract could vent his heat. MHarmless... <S> you rule sir!

As to skill discrepancy... sometimes you are the windshield sometimes you are the bug!

I love this kind of match. And I'm totally fine with cap victories, it's just, I am not ok with avoiding the other team with the express purpose of capping.

[OznerpaG]

i'v been playing with a jenner only for the last 6 weeks, and there's really no way for me to influence the outcome of the game except by capping so i play conquest only. that way if i lose, at least i get some extra cash with the resource bonus

but assault - the point of assault is to kill other mechs so the base shouldn't appear until 1 side is outnumbered 2-1 to give the losing side a chance to still win

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 July 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

I love this kind of match. And I'm totally fine with cap victories, it's just, I am not ok with avoiding the other team with the express purpose of capping.

But you need to understand there are people that will want that and it is an acceptable way to win. I would get bored if every match was this way, but I haven't seen more than 4 base caps on assault is the last 3-4 weeks.

zraven7, on 23 July 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

And I'm agreeing with Nick again. This is just getting weird.

Either way, yeah, once CW hits, base capping is going to explode, and if they dont scale capture time by map size, things are going to just get plain silly on Tourmaline and Alpine.

This is why it's important to practice using and defending against base-rushing NOW. This whole open-beta period is essentially the star league pilots training in their down-time. This is where you have a chance to learn tricks and tactics without it costing anyone anything. Heck, even your KD is going to be reset on full launch, so try some crazy stuff. Experiment.

And remember, there are a lot of us Light Pilots out there. I will happily form up a 4 man light lance and make life unpleasant for people once CW starts.

I'll be looking for you!
...
...
...
Near my Base!

[3rdworld]

There is no point in cap swapping.

No money
No xp.

no point.

Capping when you are losing the battle? sure, its a last ditch effort to pull out a win.

That is the main reason why I prefer capture mode.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 July 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

But you need to understand there are people that will want that and it is an acceptable way to win. I would get bored if every match was this way, but I haven't seen more than 4 base caps on assault is the last 3-4 weeks.


I'll be looking for you!
...
...
...
Near my Base!

Which I understand, but my issues come from when winning has an actual purpose.

We don't see it right now because most people want to fight.

When CW comes out, and the power gamer decides winning is suddenly important, then what?

The problem with capping is it really requires very little skill and it could potentially lead to a lot more of teams standing at their base for 15 minutes hoping the other team gets impatient.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 July 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

Which I understand, but my issues come from when winning has an actual purpose.

We don't see it right now because most people want to fight.

When CW comes out, and the power gamer decides winning is suddenly important, then what?

The problem with capping is it really requires very little skill and it could potentially lead to a lot more of teams standing at their base for 15 minutes hoping the other team gets impatient.

Well of course it requires little skill... if you don't come back to stop the cap!

As for CW... If you don't wanna be capped don't venture to far from your base of make sure your fast Mechs are willing to run back to defend till the rest of the team can return. It is a total lack of coordination and team work that allows base cappers to succeed. Nothing else.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 23 July 2013 - 08:06 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 July 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Well of course it requires little skill... if you don't come back to stop the cap!

As for CW... If you don't wanna be capped don't venture to far from your base of make sure your fast Mechs are willing to run back to defend till the rest of the team can return. It is a total lack of coordination and team work that allows base cappers to succeed. Nothing else.

You are frustrating because you refuse to really take in what people are saying sometimes.

With capping there are instances where unless you are baby sitting your base, a team can get 4 ECM lights with cap accelerators on your base and cap before you can do anything.

What you are refusing to acknowledge; is that if capping is the best and fastest way to win (it is), and teams have to worry about that during every drop (they will with the current mechanics of capping); then no one is going to leave their bases.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 July 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

You are frustrating because you refuse to really take in what people are saying sometimes.

With capping there are instances where unless you are baby sitting your base, a team can get 4 ECM lights with cap accelerators on your base and cap before you can do anything.

What you are refusing to acknowledge; is that if capping is the best and fastest way to win (it is), and teams have to worry about that during every drop (they will with the current mechanics of capping); then no one is going to leave their bases.

You are wrong. I am not refusing to accept any of that. In fact it is just the opposite. I accept that it can and does happen, and if I don't have fast mechs on my side I do accept it was our fault we lost. I don't blame the enemy for playing my weakness.

If the meta becomes take fast Mechs with CapAccel the counter is to take heavies and assaults and lay an ambush using ECM when they come.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 23 July 2013 - 08:24 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 July 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

You are wrong. I am not refusing to accept any of that. In fact it is just the opposite. I accept that it can and does happen, and if I don't have fast mechs on my side I do accept it was our fault we lost. I don't blame the enemy for playing my weakness.

If the meta becomes take fast Mechs with CapAccel the counter is to take heavies and assaults and lay an ambush using ECM when they come.

Really? An ambush using ECM?

Now you are just grasping at straws.

You can't ambush in this game. It's one of the major problems.

Even before seismic; it's near impossible to truely ambush someone who has any idea what they are doing.

And once again you are advocating STANDING AROUND DOING NOTHING.

Which is what I'm saying is going to happen if we leave things how they are.

Both teams drop, worry about cap accel lights and stand around waiting to "ambush" eachother.

It's stupid.

[Sprouticus]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 July 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

I love this kind of match. And I'm totally fine with cap victories, it's just, I am not ok with avoiding the other team with the express purpose of capping.

In the end though, it really is the defending team who is responsible for a cap. If someone caps you, you did something wrong.


you are saying that people troll cap assault teams and they consider it fun. And in a way you are right. But I don't really consider that trolling. I consider it good play. Is it fun, probably not. But it IS good play.


If I try to force a team to split up to come back and defend their cap, and they don't am I trolling? If I were on the other team, I might consider that trolling. After all, it is not fun to stop someone from capping.


Except that is not my problem as a light, it is THEIR problem for not enjoying base defense. If they then complain about it, some people might get a sense of satisfaction from that, but only because the person complaining is really just complaining about having to defend.


In regards to changing the capping mechanism, timing, etc. I do not think a min time or # of mechs killed is required. Raising the time MIGHT be required, but I doubt that as well. If they raised it with 12 mans, I could sort of understand it, even if I disagreed. If I were PGI, I would have the change ready to go in my system, but leave it out unless the problem manifested itself.

I can count the number of times I was capped by 4 lights in the last 4 months on one hand. Compared to other forms of systemic abuse, this is extremely minor. Making changes now is completely unnecessary. Making them with 12 mans may be necessary, but I think it is unlikely.



TL;DR: The system is fine, it is the players expectations which need to change. Play some defense and you won't get capped. 12 mans might warrant some concern and things should be monitored.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Good lord, so once again we are going in circles.

You keep saying the same things, based on the current game.

Currently, most players don't care about or choose to ignore capping. Winning isn't really the objective. It's to have fun and shoot eachother.

When actual winning comes into play, and capping becomes the more prevalent style of play, what is the reaction?

It's to have your team stand around at your base.

I've seen it in 8 man's, two teams just standing at their bases hoping the other team goes.

What happens when this seeps into the PUG mentality?

Everyone just stands and defends.

It's stupid.

[hammerreborn]

Sprouticus, on 23 July 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

In the end though, it really is the defending team who is responsible for a cap. If someone caps you, you did something wrong.


you are saying that people troll cap assault teams and they consider it fun. And in a way you are right. But I don't really consider that trolling. I consider it good play. Is it fun, probably not. But it IS good play.


If I try to force a team to split up to come back and defend their cap, and they don't am I trolling? If I were on the other team, I might consider that trolling. After all, it is not fun to stop someone from capping.


Except that is not my problem as a light, it is THEIR problem for not enjoying base defense. If they then complain about it, some people might get a sense of satisfaction from that, but only because the person complaining is really just complaining about having to defend.


In regards to changing the capping mechanism, timing, etc. I do not think a min time or # of mechs killed is required. Raising the time MIGHT be required, but I doubt that as well. If they raised it with 12 mans, I could sort of understand it, even if I disagreed. If I were PGI, I would have the change ready to go in my system, but leave it out unless the problem manifested itself.

I can count the number of times I was capped by 4 lights in the last 4 months on one hand. Compared to other forms of systemic abuse, this is extremely minor. Making changes now is completely unnecessary. Making them with 12 mans may be necessary, but I think it is unlikely.



TL;DR: The system is fine, it is the players expectations which need to change. Play some defense and you won't get capped. 12 mans might warrant some concern and things should be monitored.

12 mans is probably going to need a "max cap count" limit. The caps can go insanely fast with the amount of mechs running around (though it is still the defenders job to stop them before they get there).