419 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Boris The Spider, on 09 November 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

I really don’t mind cap-rushers, provided they are on the enemy team. Worst case scenario they cap you out in 3 minutes, you get a small C-bill and XP payout and you launch again, best case, they bork it up and you end up stomping their entire team and make a killing on C-bills and XP. Now if they are on my side, best case is they get annihilated and the rest of the team win against the odds, worst case they succeed and everyone loses their 2xXP bonus for 300XP and practically no pay out.

Had some guy yesterday, all hur-de-hur we capped you out, not noticing that it was his team that was raging at him not mine.

Anyone else notice that if you see a Davion Premade, they ALWAYS caprush?

I thought that was supposed to be a Capellan thing, but I guess after getting emasculated in the War of 3039, it's back to "any excuse to say we won".

Nice part is they tend to think they are Noble Mechwarriors, and have prickly pride. I had a lance of Daveys doing their capdance on Terra Therma, and I was spoiling for a fight. So on the way back, i started taunting the {Scrap} out of them and their princess, er prince. Idjits got so hot in their precious panties they broke their cap dance to try to hunt me down and kill me, allowing for me to draw them out and kill them all. One of the more fun games I had in some time.

Maybe the Daveys should stick to capping because they sure don't seem to know how to fight, lol.

Diego Angelus, on 09 November 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

If they added big enough c-bills bonus to whole team for wining trough cap that would remove this cry about capping and teams would focus more on defending bases since then its valid way to win.

Btw hi chief

eh, they used to pay out more, and capping became a bigger issue, and games were boring. The more one is encouraged to move about these maps, instead of guarding little stupid boxes, the better.

[Diego Angelus]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 November 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

eh, they used to pay out more, and capping became a bigger issue, and games were boring. The more one is encouraged to move about these maps, instead of guarding little stupid boxes, the better.

But that is the mode it encourages lights to do something if it was simple team death match then we would see everyone field hevies and assaults and again we have boring games with little movement. It all comes down to mode if you managed to cap your team should get bonus and enemy is punished for not paying attention to main goals. Now we have broken mode that doesn't work like it should.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 November 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

i play to have fun. stats are for guys who can't get laid IRL. running to, and standing in an imaginary box? the antithesis of fun to me. So if people want to cap, i let them, in the hopes of getting on to the next drop, hopefully against someone who was actually born with *********. As far as I'm concerned, capping before it is the last available option = surrender. you just are admitting you don't have the skill to win. have fun standing inyour box.


cuz you see, this isn't war, but a war game. lives, money and liberty are not at stake. just fun.

I totally understand you. I even agree. I play to have fun. Fun, Is shamelessly slaughtering the other team with minimal losses to my team. Fun is brawling it out to the last man standing, Fun is sneaking past the cluelsess fools and stealing his stuff. Fun is taking 12 Locusts or 12 Atlases or 1,000 LRMs to rain on the other side, Fun is Trying to shoot straight after drinking a 5th and a Half of 151 Rum! Take yer Pick cause Fun is a many splendid thing that can and will change from drop to drop. But most important What is fun for one is not fun for all, and I am wise enough to accept your fun, even if you are insulting mine.

Bishop, This is a generic you(everyone) and not You personally.

[MischiefSC]

Diego Angelus, on 09 November 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

But that is the mode it encourages lights to do something if it was simple team death match then we would see everyone field hevies and assaults and again we have boring games with little movement. It all comes down to mode if you managed to cap your team should get bonus and enemy is punished for not paying attention to main goals. Now we have broken mode that doesn't work like it should.

Hey Diego!

The problem though is that capping is easier than winning by fighting. If you make capping even more viable you reduce the fighting in the game. As Bishop said prior there are no lives at stake here - the fun of the game IS the fighting. If someone doesn't enjoy the fighting but is still playing MW:O, isn't that their problem?

I'm all for tactical goals but they should provide or remove benefits, not win/loss. This makes them all or nothing parts of the game. I'm all for lights getting bonuses for spotting, targeting and the like more comparable to kills but again - capping itself is easier than fighting and thus rewarding it devalues combat, which again is the point of the game.

Points of interest (caps or whatever) should be there to add tactical variety to the game, not limit it.

Joseph Mallan, on 09 November 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

I totally understand you. I even agree. I play to have fun. Fun, Is shamelessly slaughtering the other team with minimal losses to my team. Fun is brawling it out to the last man standing, Fun is sneaking past the cluelsess fools and stealing his stuff. Fun is taking 12 Locusts or 12 Atlases or 1,000 LRMs to rain on the other side, Fun is Trying to shoot straight after drinking a 5th and a Half of 151 Rum! Take yer Pick cause Fun is a many splendid thing that can and will change from drop to drop. But most important What is fun for one is not fun for all, and I am wise enough to accept your fun, even if you are insulting mine.

Bishop, This is a generic you(everyone) and not You personally.

I'm 100 and crazy percent with you on that.

The issue with capping though is that like all the other things you mentioned *it ends the match*. It's like if your fun at the party is calling the police to come break up the party. Yes, you got to laugh as everyone got pulled out.... but then the party is over.

You can always go to another party but I just got done getting prettied up and the beer pong table put together, now I have to start over at a new party?

I'm all for tactical objectives they just need to be tactical objectives, no an easier way to end the game.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 09 November 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Hey Diego!

The problem though is that capping is easier than winning by fighting. If you make capping even more viable you reduce the fighting in the game. As Bishop said prior there are no lives at stake here - the fun of the game IS the fighting. If someone doesn't enjoy the fighting but is still playing MW:O, isn't that their problem?

I'm all for tactical goals but they should provide or remove benefits, not win/loss. This makes them all or nothing parts of the game. I'm all for lights getting bonuses for spotting, targeting and the like more comparable to kills but again - capping itself is easier than fighting and thus rewarding it devalues combat, which again is the point of the game.

Points of interest (caps or whatever) should be there to add tactical variety to the game, not limit it.




I'm 100 and crazy percent with you on that.

The issue with capping though is that like all the other things you mentioned *it ends the match*. It's like if your fun at the party is calling the police to come break up the party. Yes, you got to laugh as everyone got pulled out.... but then the party is over.

You can always go to another party but I just got done getting prettied up and the beer pong table put together, now I have to start over at a new party?

I'm all for tactical objectives they just need to be tactical objectives, no an easier way to end the game.

In the Party example, it isn't done because of the Yucks. You call the police cause you lost control of the party and had no better option. MW:O that is a match where your enemy is a slow heavy Juggernaught and the only way to win is to use your speed and steal the victory from his hands. This victory is a stinging blow to Jugger's Ego cause he was thinking one dimensionally and you pulled a new dimension out that he didn't want to see. It isn't all that much fun Fighting a Kobayashi Maru by the expected paradigm. And come on 15% percent of the matches are Cap victories.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 09 November 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 November 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

In the Party example, it isn't done because of the Yucks. You call the police cause you lost control of the party and had no better option. MW:O that is a match where your enemy is a slow heavy Juggernaught and the only way to win is to use your spees and steal the victory from his hands. This victory is a stinging blow to Jugger's Ego cause he was thinking one dimensionally and you pulled a new dimension out that he didn't want to see. It isn't all that much fun Fighting a Kobayashi Maru by the expected paradigm. And come on 15% percent of the matches are Cap victories.

In those instances I never mind capping. Honestly capping doesn't happen enough to seriously bug me but the threat of it dictates tactics and limits a lot of opportunities on a lot of maps. It reduces encounters to a few narrow corridors or you risk having someone slip behind you and just flip the win switch.

The issue isn't that it's a new or unexpected dimension. Have control of cap prevent the enemy from using consumables, give it perks that when taken can swing the tide of battle, there's a lot of things it can do. It's the win/loss flip siwtch that's the issue. When capping is an easier win than fighting then fighting has to become all about capping.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 09 November 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

In those instances I never mind capping. Honestly capping doesn't happen enough to seriously bug me but the threat of it dictates tactics and limits a lot of opportunities on a lot of maps. It reduces encounters to a few narrow corridors or you risk having someone slip behind you and just flip the win switch.

The issue isn't that it's a new or unexpected dimension. Have control of cap prevent the enemy from using consumables, give it perks that when taken can swing the tide of battle, there's a lot of things it can do. It's the win/loss flip siwtch that's the issue. When capping is an easier win than fighting then fighting has to become all about capping.

But the only time it is easier than fighting is when we forget to keep an eye on our base. The Objective is ordered Cap OR kill the enemy, not Kill the enemy OR Cap. One night back in closed beta, we got pretty drunk and went on a Capping spree. We won 12-13 matchs by Cap, we ran to the enemy base on Frozen City to Cap again... The enemy was hidden and waiting. We had the fight of our lives and enjoyed the heck out of it! Even as we got slaughtered! We commended the winners, for playing smart!

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 November 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

But the only time it is easier than fighting is when we forget to keep an eye on our base. The Objective is ordered Cap OR kill the enemy, not Kill the enemy OR Cap. One night back in closed beta, we got pretty drunk and went on a Capping spree. We won 12-13 matchs by Cap, we ran to the enemy base on Frozen City to Cap again... The enemy was hidden and waiting. We had the fight of our lives and enjoyed the heck out of it! Even as we got slaughtered! We commended the winners, for playing smart!

So that's exactly the point though. You shut the party down for a dozen matches worth of people, over 100 not including yourselves. Why? Because having capping the easy win solution you force everyone to make the game about capping, not about the fighting. It reduces the tactical complexity, not enriches it. Since capping is a fast and easy win doesn't that mean the smart move really is to play 1 of 2 ways? You either drop 4mans in lights with cap accelerators or you camp your base. That's it. All the rest of the maps, tactical positioning, the actual fighting, it's secondary to the easy win switch of capping.

This reduces, not enriches, the tactical landscape. Similar to what air power has done to modern warfare - if you were playing a real modern war simulator why would you NOT build your offense and defense around air power? Would sorta suck for anyone who liked playing tanks though wouldn't it?

It's not that I don't get what you're saying nor that I'm against tactical objectives. My point is though that the purpose of MW:O is to simulate COMBAT. Yes, it needs enrichment via tactical objectives so it's not just sniping and slugging matches but their purpose is enrichment - not an easier way to win matches and send the rest of the party home.

[Diego Angelus]

MischiefSC, on 09 November 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

So that's exactly the point though. You shut the party down for a dozen matches worth of people, over 100 not including yourselves. Why? Because having capping the easy win solution you force everyone to make the game about capping, not about the fighting. It reduces the tactical complexity, not enriches it. Since capping is a fast and easy win doesn't that mean the smart move really is to play 1 of 2 ways? You either drop 4mans in lights with cap accelerators or you camp your base. That's it. All the rest of the maps, tactical positioning, the actual fighting, it's secondary to the easy win switch of capping.

This reduces, not enriches, the tactical landscape. Similar to what air power has done to modern warfare - if you were playing a real modern war simulator why would you NOT build your offense and defense around air power? Would sorta suck for anyone who liked playing tanks though wouldn't it?

It's not that I don't get what you're saying nor that I'm against tactical objectives. My point is though that the purpose of MW:O is to simulate COMBAT. Yes, it needs enrichment via tactical objectives so it's not just sniping and slugging matches but their purpose is enrichment - not an easier way to win matches and send the rest of the party home.

I understand what you are saying but what is cause for all these problems and how would you go about to fix it ? In my mind its map design that is cause off all problems, since maps are small it makes scouting pointless and there is nothing else to do then stay in main group and fight till one is down.

[MischiefSC]

Diego Angelus, on 09 November 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

I understand what you are saying but what is cause for all these problems and how would you go about to fix it ? In my mind its map design that is cause off all problems, since maps are small it makes scouting pointless and there is nothing else to do then stay in main group and fight till one is down.

I'd say it's less with map design and more to do with the nature of capping.

Suppose caps simply provided some additional tactical benefit - place to recover ammo, ability reload to reload or call down airstrikes and artillery. Some sort of significant but not absolute advantage. You take the enemies cap you get a second location from which to access these benefits. Stack that with an XP/cbill bonus for camping caps to secure and maintain those benefits and you give lights and fast mediums a significant purpose. You then free everyone else up to focus on fighting.

I'd also give lights bonuses to XP/cbills about on par with kills for scouting behaviors like spotting, tagging, narcing and the like.

Lots of lights though do a lot of killing. I know my highest KDR is in my jenner and some of the best players in MWO do their best work in lights. How do you balance those factors? Probably tie it to things like NARC and TAG.

[Allen Ward]

IceSerpent, on 20 July 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Aeten, your main mistake is that you apprently think that people care about c-bill/xp rewards. Only new players do and only for a few weeks. Everybody who has been playing longer than that is practically swimming in those "rewards", so the only thing that matters is win/loss.

I'm playing for a year now and I don't swim in anything. I just bought Phoenix Pack and now I'm in a constant lack of money and xp to build them up (some of the Project mech loadouts really suck). I guess you should be aware that many players, although playing daily, don't have the time to earn millions of c-bills. I play almost every day for about 2 hours. That allows usually 6-10 matches, half of them a win, most of them I survive. Still I don't have much money. I had to turn loads of MC into GXP to get some skills unlocked in the end. This game is all but rewarding, even if you win and do damage (I leave a win game with about 200k almost always, but only because I use premium time now). It's only about weeks if you don't buy new mechs. But this game makes you buy new mechs all the time...

On topic: capping is absolutely ok, although it is not priority target. It's a last resort from loosing by getting wiped by a much stronger enemy team. I can understand that it seems to be cowardice to "flee and cap" when the team breaks and it's clear that fighting it out will make you loose. Anyway, it's a legit match goal, and a team with superior firepower cannot expect a few survivors to "sacrifice" themselves. This is not medieval Japan and not the Clans. People whining about "cap cowards" probably only bullied the weaklings on the school ground while their mates supported them. Put them on the looser's side and they will run for the next cap point, too. Tell me where there is honor in dying without sense while you could actually fulfill your mission goal?

Edited by Allen Ward, 09 November 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[Diego Angelus]

MischiefSC, on 09 November 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

I'd say it's less with map design and more to do with the nature of capping.

Suppose caps simply provided some additional tactical benefit - place to recover ammo, ability reload to reload or call down airstrikes and artillery. Some sort of significant but not absolute advantage. You take the enemies cap you get a second location from which to access these benefits. Stack that with an XP/cbill bonus for camping caps to secure and maintain those benefits and you give lights and fast mediums a significant purpose. You then free everyone else up to focus on fighting.

I'd also give lights bonuses to XP/cbills about on par with kills for scouting behaviors like spotting, tagging, narcing and the like.

Lots of lights though do a lot of killing. I know my highest KDR is in my jenner and some of the best players in MWO do their best work in lights. How do you balance those factors? Probably tie it to things like NARC and TAG.

In little time i Played mwo i noticed that i feel confined on these maps. I always imagined bigger maps with few outposts to fight for. I think i saw a video of MW:LL with huge map and it looked good.

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 November 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

I totally understand you. I even agree. I play to have fun. Fun, Is shamelessly slaughtering the other team with minimal losses to my team. Fun is brawling it out to the last man standing, Fun is sneaking past the cluelsess fools and stealing his stuff. Fun is taking 12 Locusts or 12 Atlases or 1,000 LRMs to rain on the other side, Fun is Trying to shoot straight after drinking a 5th and a Half of 151 Rum! Take yer Pick cause Fun is a many splendid thing that can and will change from drop to drop. But most important What is fun for one is not fun for all, and I am wise enough to accept your fun, even if you are insulting mine.

Bishop, This is a generic you(everyone) and not You personally.

I'm generically hurt and offended.

Or is that geriatically?

[Captain Stiffy]

It's been 19 weeks since this thread was started and the devs have said {Richard Cameron} all about game modes.

I don't think anything new is coming anytime in the near future.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 09 November 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

So that's exactly the point though. You shut the party down for a dozen matches worth of people, over 100 not including yourselves. Why? Because having capping the easy win solution you force everyone to make the game about capping, not about the fighting. It reduces the tactical complexity, not enriches it. Since capping is a fast and easy win doesn't that mean the smart move really is to play 1 of 2 ways? You either drop 4mans in lights with cap accelerators or you camp your base. That's it. All the rest of the maps, tactical positioning, the actual fighting, it's secondary to the easy win switch of capping.

This reduces, not enriches, the tactical landscape. Similar to what air power has done to modern warfare - if you were playing a real modern war simulator why would you NOT build your offense and defense around air power? Would sorta suck for anyone who liked playing tanks though wouldn't it?

It's not that I don't get what you're saying nor that I'm against tactical objectives. My point is though that the purpose of MW:O is to simulate COMBAT. Yes, it needs enrichment via tactical objectives so it's not just sniping and slugging matches but their purpose is enrichment - not an easier way to win matches and send the rest of the party home.

Mischief, 12 matches out of 100! And your point is reinforced that 88% of the time we get a fight. 88% of the time we get a fight. One more time for those less perceptive than yourself, Only 12%...A MINORITY of matches are won by Cap. If we as players cannot be accepting that we were unable to kill our enemy before they get to steal our stuff, we have fallen into a bad bad place.

Stealth is a very good skill for a combat unit to have. It allows 4 men to sneak in and kill 20+ enemies without alerting the outlying observation posts and roving patrols. And those 20 + men were supposed to have every 4th man awake! It's not my problem if an enemy is not able to protect their supplies, and research. If my Atlas can get from one end of the Straits to the other and defeat a Cap attempt in an Atlas... I don't want to hear players complain cause they lost a few matches to a cap. I do not have sympathy.

[Voidcrafter]

Whats the point of charging in then?
I (somewhat)always open the line.
In my phract. (OR/And)With XL engine.
You following?
How do you think I feel when after that I carefully watch the bunch of woosie atlai/battlemasters/HGN/Victor poptarts that stood behind me the whole time and watched me die trying to push this game through for the good?
And you got a point there - even if I'm one of the first mechs to go down on the battlefield I almost always end up in the top 3 damage dealers - even if the other two lived like 5<-->10 mins more.
What's the point really?
You have to really have a feeling for the moment and do the best with it - that's what I think.
I still, after probably 3200+ games try to give that "moment" to all my teammates even though I know they'll screw it.
And they often do. And I often feel bad about my sacrifice.

But yet again there's that ocassion, that I got someone beside me to tango along with the baddies and together, with all our team, we take that leap of faith.
Win or defeat - it doesn't matter then.
That's the difference - for me it doesn't matter not only then, but at all

[Gremlich Johns]

Devil's advocate?

I view the cap option in Assault as a way for PGI to keep c-bill earnings down, thereby frustrating players, who would use said c-bill earnings for upgrade, to instead expend real money to buy MC to purchase stuff they do not want to wait for.

Purely a business decision to not have TDM up to the present and near future, methinks.

[Corbon Zackery]

Too be a winner not a loser who whines because he cant read the 2 and only 2 rules for assault.

[Shadey99]

I love the QQ when an entire team ignores a single light mech sitting on their cap the whole game...

I was running my LCT-1V earlier and was in a match on Terra Therma, I went to the enemies cap hoping to pull some of them back for defense (& then make my escape and swing around to back bite anyone in the middle). The enemy team ignored it, their lights tried to cap us. At 50% of their cap gone and 6 of my team dead they sent 1 Spider back to 'take care' of me. I CT cored him (quite the surprise to him but he overheated and so died) and by 25% of their cap they had finished my team. Instead of sending some back for me they piled on my sides cap and tried to race me... Even with 10 mechs I had very little left to finish and I won the cap race.

You would not believe the QQ and calls of "bull *%$" from the enemy team. That alone is enough to make me want to cap them. Be idiots and get capped, simple logic. & I'm not a cap rush fan.

Edited by Shadey99, 11 November 2013 - 03:25 PM.

[-Natural Selection-]

I don't mind so much the other team capping us. What will **** me off is the 3-4 guys (mechs of any size) that choose to run straight to their base and start capping. Then when it is about 1/2 capped and we loose about 6 mechs they decide to come back and TRY to help. IF you start capping, you better stay your *** there and commit to the end and fight for it!