592 replies to this topic

[fil5000]

Ramblin, on 24 July 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

Have I already mentioned that this game desperately needs some form of lobby? The fact that we are this far into development and there is still no way to pick your opponent(s) and/or do practice drops against your own unit is insane. Why are we all beating to death the balance issues (That DO exist) and not talking about basic online game functions... I mean BASIC... Without a way to pre-determine who we drop against this is going to FAIL in an epic way.

I really do believe they will eventually work out the balance issues and figure out what is going on with the hit boxes and that sort of thing on their own. What they need to understand from us is that the game in its current state is NOT as fun as it could/should be. A lobby in some form or fashion would fix allot of issues. Weight limits in 8-mans not an issue if your sitting in a lobby and both teams agree to a maximum weight allowance. Bugged out hit boxes are not an issue if both teams agree "No spiders, No Centurions"...

GIVE US A LOBBY!!!!

Lobbies would absolutely be nice, but they're papering over the cracks - for exactly the reasons you stated. You end up with a bunch of people running custom games that ban and allow certain things and while that's great for competitive play, it masks that some of this stuff is flat out broken and needs fixing.

[Ramblin]

fil5000, on 24 July 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Lobbies would absolutely be nice, but they're papering over the cracks - for exactly the reasons you stated. You end up with a bunch of people running custom games that ban and allow certain things and while that's great for competitive play, it masks that some of this stuff is flat out broken and needs fixing.

A Band-Aid over a bullet hole, I agree. It would however allow us to enjoy the game while they fix these very known issues. I know it does nothing to solve the problems, but it allows us to still have fun while they are being worked out no?

[Ridersofdoom]

Plz if you wanna save mwo, somebody call Jordan Weisman tell him what PGI have done with his child.

[ColonelKiel]

I probably won't attend because I suspect this will devolve into a B*tchfest so feel free to ignore this comment.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with this game, is that we are allowed to play it right now.

PGI has provided unprecidented access to this game early in the development cycle. I've been playing video games for over 30 years. I've been involved in countless beta programs and I can say with genuine honesty that I've NEVER been in a game this early in the development.

This unprecedented level of access has created one very serious problem. It has invited all the self proclaimed game developers to chime in and tell the "Amateurs" at PGI how a "REAL" game is developed. Couple that with the rabid TableTop Rules Lawyers that have inhabited the Battletech Community since about 30 seconds after Jordan came up with the idea and shared it with another human being, and you have an environment that is utterly hostile and poisonous.

I know you all feel like this game is broken, and your right. You're all complaining that the sports car that we were promised would go zero to 60 in 1.5 seconds but can't because the engine timing is all wrong, while the guy who is trying to calibrate the engine timing is in the middle of doing just that. It's a work in progress. The fact that we can even play the game and have a relatively stable performance throughout the experience is a miracle.

YES, there are serious balancing issues. YES PGI is still actively developing NEW engineering components for the game. YES PGI is still actively designing new mech models, maps and assets for the game. NO that is NOT a WASTE of resources.

The Engineers are building the new Modules and mechanics of the Game.
The Game Play Designers are Finetuning the balance of the play mechanics.
The Art Designers are making new Assets and Models for the game.

THESE ARE NOT INTERCHANGABLE SKILLS/DUTIES/FUNCTIONS.

The suggestions that PGI HALT designing new maps and mechs and focus on fixing bugs and balance issues is idiotic and the clearest sign that the proponents of such foolish thinking, know nothing of Program Development.

Be gracious. You've been given a rare and unique gift. You get to see and help participate in your shiny Sports Car being designed, built, tested, and then Washed and Waxed before the keys are handed over to you.


tl;dr?

Problems with MWO? Wait 3-6 months and try again. Let them finish it before you say it's broken.

edit:typos

Edited by ColonelKiel, 24 July 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[Anders]

ColonelKiel, on 24 July 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

I probably won't attend because I suspect this will devolve into a B*tchfest so feel free to ignore this comment.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with this game, is that we are allowed to play it right now.

PGI has provided unprecidented access to this game early in the development cycle. I've been playing video games for over 30 years. I've been involved in countless beta programs and I can say with genuine honesty that I've NEVER been in a game this early in the development.

This unprecedented level of access has created one very serious problem. It has invited all the self proclaimed game developers to chime in and tell the "Amateurs" at PGI how a "REAL" game is developed. Couple that with the rabid TableTop Rules Lawyers that have inhabited the Battletech Community since about 30 seconds after Jordan came up with the idea and shared it with another human being, and you have an environment that is utterly hostile and poisonous.

I know you all feel like this game is broken, and your right. You're all complaining that the sports car that we were promised would go zero to 60 in 1.5 seconds but can't because the engine timing is all wrong, while the guy who is trying to calibrate the engine timing is in the middle of doing just that. It's a work in progress. The fact that we can even play the game and have a relatively stable performance throughout the experience is a miracle.

YES, there are serious balancing issues. YES PGI is still actively developing NEW engineering components for the game. YES PGI is still actively designing new mech models, maps and assets for the game. NO that is NOT a WASTE of resources.

The Engineers are building the new Modules and mechanics of the Game.
The Game Play Designers are Finetuning the balance of the play mechanics.
The Art Designers are making new Assets and Models for the game.

THESE ARE NOT INTERCHANGABLE SKILLS/DUTIES/FUNCTIONS.

The suggestions that PGI HALT designing new maps and mechs and focus on fixing bugs and balance issues is idiotic and the clearest sign that the proponents of such foolish thinking, know nothing of Program Development.

Be gracious. You've been given a rare and unique gift. You get to see and help participate in your shiny Sports Car being designed, built, tested, and then Washed and Waxed before the keys are handed over to you.


tl;dr?

Problems with MWO? Wait 3-6 months and try again. Let them finish it before you say it's broken.

edit:typos

Mr. Colonel-Capital-Kay-iel:

There have been countless other gentlemen such as your self, who have suggested that this game is beta - especially since, and it stands to reason, there's a label on the banner which would indicate as such.

However, I want you to just take a second about the following:

If we are still in beta, why have they monetized the play experience? If we are testers, why do we not have access to testing tools or the like? If we are here to test the economy, why will there be no re-sets of the game's economy when the game goes live, like closed beta did? Why has the economy not been touched since we left closed beta? Why are things like sales, tournaments, and the like being offered?

Perhaps, it might seem reasonable then, that when a company is taking funds (to continue their project), and implying a level of permanency and stability in the game's economy, exp, and the like, the label of BETA is less of a hard and fast rule, and more of a suggestion.

Release is in 56 days, September 17th, 2013. Do you think the engine timing on the sports car will be fixed before then? Or will you advocate that they can fix it "post-release" and that "You should really give them a chance, it's only version 1.0!" Those sorts of justifications can carry on in perpetuity.

A line must be drawn somewhere. We were supposed to have CW, 12's, decals, lobbies, etc at this point in time, promised to us at varying stages of development. "Within 90 days of the start of Open Beta, we'll have CW," was the quote I believe.

Oops! You seem like a passionate, articulate person, I implore you to attend to the town hall meeting. It will be something for the ages.

We here at The Word of Lowtax thank you for your post. We here at the Word of Lowtax realize that you have limited entertainment destinations and appreciate that you're spending your entertainment electrons on us. Please continue to choose the Word of Lowtax in your future holiday destination spending! We are grateful for your out of the box, blue-sky thinking, and appreciate you touching base with us here at the Word of Lowtax. We hope to synergize our efforts to achieve quantifiable paradigm redefinitions in a future collaboration soon.

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[Chronojam]

ColonelKiel, on 24 July 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

I probably won't attend because I suspect this will devolve into a B*tchfest so feel free to ignore this comment.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with this game, is that we are allowed to play it right now.

PGI has provided unprecidented access to this game early in the development cycle. I've been playing video games for over 30 years. I've been involved in countless beta programs and I can say with genuine honesty that I've NEVER been in a game this early in the development.

This is absolutely not without precedent, especially in these days of indie gaming and kickstarter/crowdfunding -- such early access is only becoming more common. But even commercial games are no exception and there have been alpha-level access invitations to even Electronic Arts titles in the past several years. Battlefield 4 "beta" testers have been running around untextured maps and that's about as "AAA" as a title gets.

[MechFrog1]

1. I don't think unprecedented means what you think it does.
2. Less than two months from launch is not early in a development cycle.

[xZaOx]

It should be #JordanSaveMWOandTAKEitBACK

[ColonelKiel]

Anders,

With unprecedented access comes unprecedented revenue formula. The whole Free to Play model is an experiment. No one knows what the right formula is. Charge money for early access? How Early? If players paid for that early start can you reset their accumulation of wealth/stats/attributes/ingame winnables/etc? How many times? Is it REALLY a beta?

But regardless of the revenue model, the fact remains. YES, this game is still undergoing activel development of game mechanics, assets and requires significant playtesting and balance adjustments.

And the "Launch" date may be little more than 2 months away, but that;s plenty of time to DELIVER the mechanics and assets they promised. However they never said they would be 100% fully functional and free of bugs/balance issues.

I'd also suggest that the Premature Launch Date is a symptom of the community's early access and PGI striving to meet the insane level of pressure the community has levelled at them. Again, this is an experimental thing. They want to keep players satisfied. They want to get the game out there in full launch. They want it to work perfectly. The fact that they have what, 100,000? Beta testers frothing at the mouth to have PGI do that same thing?

Insane pressure.

I'm not saying MWO is a failed experiment in the Free To Play world. I genuinely believe they will rise to the challenges and overcome them.

No, Its not a failure, but if you're a Game Developer eyeing the F2P model for your next project? This is a brilliant case study of what does and does not work. Many lessons harsh and stark have been learned during this project and if PGI had the chance to do it all over again, there would definitely be changes in the way they did it.

PS: I know you're a goon Anders, but seriously? What are you in Elementary School? Making fun of a person's name? Troll Harder.

[Ramblin]

Im not sure what any of this has to do with getting a functioning lobby... But, it is entertaining.

[ColonelKiel]

mint frog, on 24 July 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

1. I don't think unprecedented means what you think it does.
2. Less than two months from launch is not early in a development cycle.

To Clarify, I'm talking about the folks who have been involved in this since the Alpha and Closed Beta stages. The level of bitching and griping has been crazy. The level of dissatisfaction reached inferno levels once we went into Open Beta.

Yes, there are other projects where players have been invited to participate in closed betas and even alpha experiences. and yes, recently more and more titles are moving this way. But MWO was one of the first to offer it to the general unwashed masses as early as they did. Most people who were in the open and even the early access beta have probably never seen a beta and have no idea what a beta experience is supposed to be. They don't understand game development.

It's a challenge for the Developer to have people poking around your game when it's broken and you know it's broken and you have plans to fix it, but you have to fix 20 other things before you CAN fix that thing. but all you hear about is how broken that thing is.

Shotgun, Swallow, Peace.

Would be a tempting solution to alot of problems.

[Viper69]

ColonelKiel, on 24 July 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

This developer is one of the few if not the only that completely ignores cries from its forum and even they dont use their own forum, they use twitter and facebook, they do it because their follower numbers and likes are more important than keeping their finger on the pulse of their community. They outright lie to us on 3pv and accidentally leak they are testing it, who knows when they would have actually told us. They outright lied about coolant flushing saying it would allow a jenner to core an atlas in 6 seconds because it took monitoring your heat out of the equation. Then Bryan had the nerve to pop in and chime in on the forums to tell us 3pv is coming weather we like it or not, then has the balls to ask us for ideas on its implementation, then fails to even respond to feedback against doing so. In closed beta we implored to them not to go open beta because it was not ready by a long shot, that delayed them for 1 week and they went OB anyway because they needed to start funding their work some more after funneling it to MWtactics. Now they want to go live with less than half of what they said we were going to see in open beta.

Anyone who still puts money into this game needs their head examined because Bryan and Paul are ******* away a great game opportunity and dragging the IP down with them.

Edited by Viper69, 24 July 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[MechFrog1]

ColonelKiel, on 24 July 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

Most people who were in the open and even the early access beta have probably never seen a beta and have no idea what a beta experience is supposed to be. They don't understand game development.

I think you would be surprised by the level of knowledge and experience that the MWO fan base has. I personally have experience working in QA testing in an official capacity, and within the Word of Lowtax there are game programmers, devs, IT professionals, and a variety of other professionals who know very well how a beta works as we've been playing games for as long as PC gaming has been around.

Going back to games like Hellgate London, Final Fantasy XIV, and Aion, there were always people like yourself who were quick to remind the "complainers" that it was just beta, and that the devs have a grand vision. When shown the variety of game-crippling issues there was a general sense of denial, and flat out panic as release dates approached. In a last ditch attempt to retain players, true-believers even conjured up lies about secret internal builds that had fixes to all the problems players were experiencing.

This is the atmosphere I see being generated for MWO over the past few months. Legitimate, documented, rational cases against the poorly thought out changes to the game are met with screams of, "WHINERS! QQ!" and "PGI has a plan be patient!". But as time progresses, it's clear there is no plan, and changes are indicative of a dev process that is struggling to keep up. At every step along the way, players who want MWO to succeed, who have offered good ideas to bolster the game have been called whiners, complainers, "noise", and even told that they're actually trying to ruin the game.

Launch day comes and goes, and there is no secret squirrel internal patch, and the game dies a miserable death. The people who screamed, "Stop whining!" leave with all the others. Off to find another game to become obsessively devoted to until it too dies.

[DisasterMedic]

ColonelKiel, on 24 July 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

:words:

First:

Quote

un·prec·e·dent·ed
/ˌənˈpresəˌdəntid/
Adjective
Never done or known before.
Synonyms
unexampled - unparalleled - unheard-of

That might help you. Second: While I Am a Fan of Unnecessary CAPITALIZATION, it seems you have no conception of what an Open Beta Test is supposed to be, or a Beta Test in general.

To KEEP IT SUCCINCT, it boils down to this: AT THE open BEta stage your product is being fielded to passionate players interested in the IP that want to give honest feedback and shape the game in a meaningful way while development milestones are met on the progression to release. PGI has incessantly pushed back and stripped down MILESTONES and obstinately ignored pleas for simple fixes to simple problems. This is the problem with calling the game a BETa, as the critical component - feedbacknoise - is being ignored at the decision making levels.

Edited by DisasterMedic, 24 July 2013 - 10:52 AM.

[Allen Wren]

It is gratifying to see the response (both positive and negative) to this venture. Good times will be had (except by myself, when I have to clean up the recordings afterwards.) The Violent Combat Robot Show supports this venture (...well, we kind of have to, since we're all involved in it anyway.)


Yes, I've been on vacation for the last week.

Edited by Allen Wren, 24 July 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[Coolwhoami]

fil5000, on 24 July 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Lobbies would absolutely be nice, but they're papering over the cracks - for exactly the reasons you stated. You end up with a bunch of people running custom games that ban and allow certain things and while that's great for competitive play, it masks that some of this stuff is flat out broken and needs fixing.

And in games like the recently officially abandonded Tribes: Ascend, there was a consistent release of new weapons that were overpowered, and them taking months to be rebalanced. This was in part due to the developers knowing that private competitive lobbies banned them immediately, and felt that they did not have to focus on balancing the game because the competitive scene was doing it internally.

[Stormwolf]

I'm back and I finally have the time to write a comprehensive post.

Anyway, what I want to see for game balance:

1. Keep the weight and crit stats as it is.

2. Give weapons more pronounced ingame effects
2a. Ballistic weapons should have higher firing rates, but they they will be limited by their available ammo
2b. ER weapons need somewhat longer range to bring them closer to their Clan counterparts
2c. Pulse lasers would probably be better of with the MW2 system, high DPS, but shorter range and more heat
2d. Missiles, both LRM's and SRM's should have a chance to miss even when they are locked on a target (with NARC, Artemis and TAG increasing hit percentages). Streak SRM's have a somewhat longer lock on time but will always hit.

3. Turn ECM into what is was supposed to be (a tool to disrupt BAP, Artemis, C3 and NARC)
3a. Make ECCM and Ghost Targets unlockable modes
3b. Remove the EMP effect from the PPC

4. Don't have a limit on the time NARC broadcasts, but there's a chance that the beacon might be destroyed when someone hits the mech.

5. A cone system for firing that relies on: how many weapons you have grouped together and the quality of your targeting system.
5a. You can pinpoint when you have one or two weapons, after that a cone gets added.

6. The ability to climb hills should depend on your mech's speed, tonnage and the quality of your neurohelmet.

7. Remove mech variants that were obviously not designed for combat against other mechs.
7a. Ditch the "master 3 variants" system and just let players master any variant they like to play in.


Well, that's just to list a few.

I'm pretty much a BT canon grognard, I get that that's a rather a niche group to cater to. I only came to MWO for the mechs and setting, but I'm not getting either here.

Mechs:
For me the mechs are recognizable for their loadouts, when I picture a Centurion, I almost always picture the CN9-A for instance. But how much of that identity remains when it gets completely min maxed? Sure, it's got the eye candy, but other then that it ceases to be a Centurion and just becomes a generic gun bag.

This is also the reason why I asked the devs why they still bothered with canon loadouts for the last two ask the devs sessions. The current gameplay pretty much forces you to alter the loadouts to even be able to play, sadly the devs toss in mechs that were never ment to be reconfigured to such a degree. This annoys me to no end, I have the mechs I want, but I can't play them without getting slaughtered every round.


Setting:
I think that we would have been better of if we had two types of gameplay here:
- Stock only missions (campaigns, actual objectives, etc)
- Fully customizable Solaris Arena games (essentially deathmatch and similar conventions)

The difference here being that both have RnR, but stock mechs get funded by their respective factions (with free replacement mechs from the faction lists). Now Solaris would let you get overboard with your mechs to a greater degree then we have now, but it'll cost you.

You can also introduce salvage here, stock players can salvage mechs from enemy factions that they otherwise wouldn't have access to. Solaris players would always be able to salvage their mechs.

Why do I split this? Well, it's essentially the split between the sim and shooter crowd. MWO seems to only cater to the latter.

Hell I'd go even further then this, I'd make the gaming experience for House, Merc and Clan players vastly different from each other. Allow people to have several PC's linked to their existing account without having to create a alt account on this board.


Enough ranting from me, that's my opinion.

[Chronojam]

ColonelKiel, on 24 July 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

...
It's a challenge for the Developer to have people poking around your game when it's broken and you know it's broken and you have plans to fix it, but you have to fix 20 other things before you CAN fix that thing. but all you hear about is how broken that thing is.

Hey remember when they weren't going to make SRMs better and then overnight made SRMs better by changing a text file? That was pretty good.

[Ken Fury]

Chronojam, on 24 July 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Hey remember when they weren't going to make SRMs better and then overnight made SRMs better by changing a text file? That was pretty good.

I guess I'd need serious training to be able to do that myself. Anyone can point me to a tutorial?

[Wilburg]

mint frog, on 24 July 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

I think you would be surprised by the level of knowledge and experience that the MWO fan base has. I personally have experience working in QA testing in an official capacity, and within the Word of Lowtax there are game programmers, devs, IT professionals, and a variety of other professionals who know very well how a beta works as we've been playing games for as long as PC gaming has been around.

Going back to games like Hellgate London, Final Fantasy XIV, and Aion, there were always people like yourself who were quick to remind the "complainers" that it was just beta, and that the devs have a grand vision. When shown the variety of game-crippling issues there was a general sense of denial, and flat out panic as release dates approached. In a last ditch attempt to retain players, true-believers even conjured up lies about secret internal builds that had fixes to all the problems players were experiencing.

This is the atmosphere I see being generated for MWO over the past few months. Legitimate, documented, rational cases against the poorly thought out changes to the game are met with screams of, "WHINERS! QQ!" and "PGI has a plan be patient!". But as time progresses, it's clear there is no plan, and changes are indicative of a dev process that is struggling to keep up. At every step along the way, players who want MWO to succeed, who have offered good ideas to bolster the game have been called whiners, complainers, "noise", and even told that they're actually trying to ruin the game.

Launch day comes and goes, and there is no secret squirrel internal patch, and the game dies a miserable death. The people who screamed, "Stop whining!" leave with all the others. Off to find another game to become obsessively devoted to until it too dies.

That said, I assume that none of your community fostered the weapon changes to PPC´s in the past? Are you kidding me?
As already mentioned, most negative changes on weapon balancing the last months (back to open beta) are changes demanded by the community. The same ones that now are whinig that the game is ****** up.

I applied for the meeting, but reading the posts here, I can´t get rid of the feeling that the direction you want to go is already predetermined. I hope this is no intend to get as many people as possible together to sell your approaches as "anted by a good part of the community". This sensation gets underlined by remarks of WoL guys to crtitical posts.
In fact, Allen Wren is the first one on the last few pages to appreciate other approaches. I am pretty afraid of where this is going ...