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#221 fil5000

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 01:15 AM

View PostProtection, on 24 July 2013 - 01:07 AM, said:


The other option is to increase the damages for each weapon to be more in proportion to their tonnage.

And why aren't they playing with rate of fire on weapons more?


That also works - although you'd really have to do a LOT of tinkering with the AC/2 and AC/5 if you were determined to leave slots and tonnage alone.

#222 Magicbullet141

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 01:53 AM

I'm on the verge of giving up on this game, I am interested in what the goons think is killing the game and would like to see what big ideas people have to make the game fun again.

misinformation fest begin!

#223 Stormwolf

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:07 AM

I have little to no time for any lengthy discussion on weapon weights and crits right now, but what is that you guys want to see exactly?

#224 fil5000

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:21 AM

View PostStormwolf, on 24 July 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

I have little to no time for any lengthy discussion on weapon weights and crits right now, but what is that you guys want to see exactly?

All the balance levers that are inherent to MWO being used to balance it instead of other structures being bolted on to make it work.

#225 Oderint dum Metuant

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:28 AM

You can't be bound by tabletop in some aspects and refuse to budge, and freely change other parts, it's a disaster zone and is why we are where we are with weapons balance.

This is Mechwarrior, it used the Battletech IP the lore, the nuts and bolts....but create it to be a game a good fun game, that is yet tactical but simplistic.

Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Table Top stats have no place here.

#226 Wilburg

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:37 AM

Again I think, this is going in a wrong direction. I merely see approaches that allow to keep the cheesy 35-45 pin-point dmg. It´s not about pushing other weapons, it´s about diversifying the game by reducing the unbalanced parts implemented to give weapons more sense.
The TT may be unbalanced either, but by restricting the chassis and only allowing little tunings (upgrades and slightly weapon modification like max 1 step up/down, eg. MG can be replaced by AC2 but not by AC20, M-Lasers by L-lasers but not by PPCs) would do most of the job. It wouldn´t be any more about creating a PPC-Pin-Point-Monster from Spider to Atlas, it would be about adapting to the role of the mech like it was intended.

#227 Oderint dum Metuant

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:42 AM

View PostWilburg, on 24 July 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

Again I think, this is going in a wrong direction. I merely see approaches that allow to keep the cheesy 35-45 pin-point dmg. It´s not about pushing other weapons, it´s about diversifying the game by reducing the unbalanced parts implemented to give weapons more sense.
The TT may be unbalanced either, but by restricting the chassis and only allowing little tunings (upgrades and slightly weapon modification like max 1 step up/down, eg. MG can be replaced by AC2 but not by AC20, M-Lasers by L-lasers but not by PPCs) would do most of the job. It wouldn´t be any more about creating a PPC-Pin-Point-Monster from Spider to Atlas, it would be about adapting to the role of the mech like it was intended.


You don't need to ruin customisation and the tactical abilities of 80% of all mechs to remove high alpha pin point damage if that's is what you deem to be the issue.

#228 Wilburg

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:53 AM

View PostDV McKenna, on 24 July 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:


You don't need to ruin customisation and the tactical abilities of 80% of all mechs to remove high alpha pin point damage if that's is what you deem to be the issue.


What in MWO right now is called "tactical abilities", in most other games is called "camping". The game got to a point where it is better to move less (conversion) and to have a wall in your back while you are waiting for the first mech to peak around and blow him with the first shot. There´s no point any more in splitting up or in setting up an ambush (7-9 mechs waiting for you is NO ambush, it´s about circling the enemy or hit and run). It´s even boring to try to brawl, when your opponent hardly moves because the only thing he needs is one shot to blow off your limbs (=weapons or stop your movement). Some mechs simply were never meant to carry heavy weapons, what´s so bad about that? Customize also means getting better efficiencies in moving or heat questions not only DPS by overloading your mech. Come on ... 4 PPC Cicada or 2 PPC/Gauss as Standard for a Cataphract? The word is camping, not tactics.

#229 Berserker

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:55 AM

I'm not going to make the forum event, leaving some feedback here:
I don't think the game is as broken or unfun as the pundits but I do think the recent pass at heatscaling has been counter productive. There is lots of room for debate about what to do about boating and whether it has worked but I think the bottom line is it is *way* too complicated for new players which hurts longterm survivability of the game. I also think the only real boating that seemed to be a major problem was PPC boating and other more obvious and intuitive solutions exist. Alterations to that weapon system itself or hardpoints that are obvious when you're building a mech come to mind.

#230 onipanda

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 03:17 AM

View PostBerserker, on 24 July 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

I'm not going to make the forum event, leaving some feedback here:
I don't think the game is as broken or unfun as the pundits but I do think the recent pass at heatscaling has been counter productive. There is lots of room for debate about what to do about boating and whether it has worked but I think the bottom line is it is *way* too complicated for new players which hurts longterm survivability of the game. I also think the only real boating that seemed to be a major problem was PPC boating and other more obvious and intuitive solutions exist. Alterations to that weapon system itself or hardpoints that are obvious when you're building a mech come to mind.

My main issue with this thought process is that "boating" is canon. There's no shortage of examples of canon mechs that mass certain weapons (nova primes, maurader, catapult A1, the list goes on). That's not the problem. It's also not something you want to discourage really. There will ALWAYS be builds that min/max whatever ruleset is in place, and hell if you want to go with in game reasons, why do you want to have 3 different weapon systems making logistics harder? The answer isn't to penalize the dude using the nova prime because it happened to have 12 ER ML, it's to make the nova prime have benefits and drawbacks and counters. Saying "you have too many of the same weapon" is a bad answer to that. Make there be a reason to use more kinds of weapons that isn't slapping you on the wrist and yell "NO!" when you do.

#231 TheMagician

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 03:25 AM

Another item where it is in-game due to btech but shouldn't be, due tot he game, are hand actuators. They have no effect on the game, other than to limit the slots available to certain mechs. Since they have no game-impact, they should be removed until we can use them within game (e.g. brawling).

#232 Ramblin

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 03:29 AM

Where is the lobby?

#233 Filter41

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 03:43 AM

View PostWilburg, on 24 July 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:


What in MWO right now is called "tactical abilities", in most other games is called "camping". The game got to a point where it is better to move less (conversion) and to have a wall in your back while you are waiting for the first mech to peak around and blow him with the first shot. The word is camping, not tactics.

sry to say that, but what you describe in your post is TACTICS! you can like it or not, but you have to see, that coordinative action (even more in matches without premades) in relation to the situation is the definition of tactic... and in case of contingent groupmembers the law of tactics is: easier is better! (cuz nearly everybody understands it...) my impression of your posts are, that you want more opportuinities for single-player-tactics?! and indeed, single player games mostly offering much more tactical liberty. but thats what i like about MWO: alone, unseen what kind of mech you pilot, you have no chance against 2 or 3 which work together!

on the "boating-problem" i have to agree onipanda. boating is part of mech-constructing and cant be generally punished. PGI has to elaborate restrictions for every single mech (-model)... this would even boost the diversity of the different mechs in a good sense!'

best and good hunting

#234 Wilburg

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 03:51 AM

View PostFilter41, on 24 July 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

sry to say that, but what you describe in your post is TACTICS! you can like it or not, but you have to see, that coordinative action (even more in matches without premades) in relation to the situation is the definition of tactic... and in case of contingent groupmembers the law of tactics is: easier is better! (cuz nearly everybody understands it...) my impression of your posts are, that you want more opportuinities for single-player-tactics?! and indeed, single player games mostly offering much more tactical liberty. but thats what i like about MWO: alone, unseen what kind of mech you pilot, you have no chance against 2 or 3 which work together!



Not at all, I am also talking about 8 vs 8. But if you want it that way and camping becomeas a "the easier the better tactic", then let´s say: it is sad, that there is only one tactic left in game. I am waiting for the first match that ends draw because both sides kept their stance and suddenly after 10 mins realized that they are too slow to get enganged even if they wanted.

Edited by Wilburg, 24 July 2013 - 06:43 AM.


#235 Osis

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 04:33 AM

Hail,

GOONS organizing to save a game, new concept. Sorry but history is not on your side. This week it is #savemwo but has it not generally been #destroymwo ?

Edited by Osis, 24 July 2013 - 08:21 AM.


#236 Gwaihir

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 04:34 AM

View PostBerserker, on 24 July 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

I'm not going to make the forum event, leaving some feedback here:
I don't think the game is as broken or unfun as the pundits but I do think the recent pass at heatscaling has been counter productive. There is lots of room for debate about what to do about boating and whether it has worked but I think the bottom line is it is *way* too complicated for new players which hurts longterm survivability of the game. I also think the only real boating that seemed to be a major problem was PPC boating and other more obvious and intuitive solutions exist. Alterations to that weapon system itself or hardpoints that are obvious when you're building a mech come to mind.


The mantra that I would like to see internalized is the oft-repeated simple to learn, difficult to master. That means staying away from opaque systems that don't actually solve any problems like the current heat scaling.

To be sure, sniper weapons are vastly overtuned right now, considering mech health, and in relation to other weapons which should be their natural counters. The way to fix that was not bolt yet another thing on top that makes no sense on it's face, it was instead to just fix the underlying factors, using the tools already available.

Pinpoint burst weapons (sniper rifles) have always significant advantages due to low required exposure time, precision, and high burst. To balance that out, they're usually saddled with very low actual DPS relative to other weapons, and a slow RoF to punish missing. Both of these things are easy to fix.

You can also increase health, which directly nerfs snipers and buffs brawlers. as for the short ranged brawling weapons themselves, a good rule of thumb to go by should be that a shorter ranged weapon should have DPS proportional to the range difference between itself and the longest ranged weapons. Put simply, when you're using SRMS, you're going to be in range of your target for a much shorter time than someone who is using PPCs, simply because it takes you longer to get in to that short range. So, those SRMs need to do a good bit more actual DPS than the PPC does if the two are going to be balanced. Of course, that's simplifying things, no matches are actually just one v ones with an SRM-only mech vs a PPC-only mech, etc, etc, but the principle stands.

Anyone with feelings about the game's balance can get a good idea of my view here: http://mwomercs.com/...71#entry2552571

(Re-posted here and spoilered for length. Also SRMs have been tuned up since I wrote this, so they don't qualify as totally broken anymore).
Spoiler


#237 Gwaihir

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 04:37 AM

View PostOsis, on 24 July 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

Hail,

GOONS organizing to save a game, new concept. Sorry but history is not on your side. This week it is #savemwo but was has it not generally been #destroymwo ?


It is an always has been "Love MWO, Destroy bad players."

This is so utterly silly, why would so many people that have spent in excess of 200$ on a game, and who grew up playing mechwarrior two and the like, want to literally destroy the first mechwarrior game in 10 years?

Just give me one reason that makes anything approaching sense. I know you won't, because most people aren't able to discern a difference between "Stomping your particular bad group in to the ground" and "Stomping the game itself in to the ground," but I had to post anyways. Carry on, you noble crusader always vigilant against the existential goon threat to spend money on this game. (Actually that's not much of a threat anymore, no one's really spending money on anything other than Sarah's mech lately.)

Edited by Gwaihir, 24 July 2013 - 04:42 AM.


#238 fil5000

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 04:38 AM

View PostOsis, on 24 July 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

Hail,

GOONS organizing to save a game, new concept. Sorry but history is not on your side. This week it is #savemwo but was has it not generally been #destroymwo ?


No, it hasn't. Thanks.

Edit: Gwaihir put more effort in than me.

Edited by fil5000, 24 July 2013 - 05:09 AM.


#239 Victor Morson

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 06:11 AM

View PostGwaihir, on 24 July 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

It is an always has been "Love MWO, Destroy bad players."

This is so utterly silly, why would so many people that have spent in excess of 200$ on a game, and who grew up playing mechwarrior two and the like, want to literally destroy the first mechwarrior game in 10 years?


People hear of you guys getting teammates to kill each other, by taking advantage of crappy dumb teammates. Then the story gets told and retold until you are using hardcore hacks to puppeteer people's machines, just to grief them.

In other words this goes back to what I was saying about it being a lot of legend. You guys have always fielded good stuff and played a sporting game, when the occasion calls for it, in my experience.

I absolutely, 110% believe WoL is making every effort to include the community for the betterment of the game.

#240 Ramblin

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:59 AM

Have I already mentioned that this game desperately needs some form of lobby? The fact that we are this far into development and there is still no way to pick your opponent(s) and/or do practice drops against your own unit is insane. Why are we all beating to death the balance issues (That DO exist) and not talking about basic online game functions... I mean BASIC... Without a way to pre-determine who we drop against this is going to FAIL in an epic way.

I really do believe they will eventually work out the balance issues and figure out what is going on with the hit boxes and that sort of thing on their own. What they need to understand from us is that the game in its current state is NOT as fun as it could/should be. A lobby in some form or fashion would fix allot of issues. Weight limits in 8-mans not an issue if your sitting in a lobby and both teams agree to a maximum weight allowance. Bugged out hit boxes are not an issue if both teams agree "No spiders, No Centurions"...

GIVE US A LOBBY!!!!

Edited by Ramblin, 24 July 2013 - 08:02 AM.




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