578 replies to this topic

[Stoicblitzer]

Praehotec8, on 25 July 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Sure, the game could (and should) continue to have further balancing, but I think one think most people seem to overlook is that for most video games (if not all), and particularly mechwarrior, there is no perfect achievable balance when you have a diverse group of weapons/skills. In fact, in order to make things remain interesting, there must always be "good" and "bad" weapons. Even if there is reasonable balance, there will always be some weapons that will stand out at least a bit.

Truly competitive players will always seek to exploit these imbalances, thus leading to "competitive builds". Case in point: with the recent heat penalty, the online weeping quickly shifted from the 4-6 PPC stalker to anything running 2PPC + gauss.

the whole point of the game is pinpoint alpha. 2ppc+gauss has been around for 5+ months but it was countered by brawling when srms used to hurt. the ppc+gauss combo can be nerfed by making the difference between their velocities greater than now and maybe adjusting gauss rate of fire to 5.0s to prevent constant alphas and force players to aim twice.

[Joseph Mallan]

Praehotec8, on 25 July 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

The competitive player does not create the imbalances for certain. However, they do exploit them (as has previously been stated ad nauseum).

Sorry isn't it the competitive players the ones bringing 6 PPC Stalkers to the party? Cause I never saw that build in the game till one of them did it? Then the followers started bringing it, an what do you have? Imbalance!!! Are 3 PPCs imbalanced? That is the most ever put on an official Chassis (to my knowledge). So are 3 PPCs imbalanced? If the answer is no, then It is the volume of PPCs and PPCs should not be Nerfed so I can bring more, nor should they be punished for being brought in Canon numbers.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 July 2013 - 12:20 PM.

[3rdworld]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 July 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Sorry isn't it the competitive players the ones bringing 6 PPC Stalkers to the party? Cause I never saw that build in the game till one of them did it? Then the followers started bringing it, an what do you have? Imbalance!!! Are 3 PPCs imbalanced? That is the most ever put on an official Chassis (to my knowledge). So are 3 PPCs imbalanced? If the answer is no, then It is the volume of PPCs and PPCs should not be Nerfed so I can bring more, nor should they be punished for being brought in Canon numbers.

If you have ever played a competitive match you would know, that no one runs a 6 ppc stalker.

It is a mech to troll nubs. It clearly worked.

[Joseph Mallan]

Stoicblitzer, on 25 July 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

the whole point of the game is pinpoint alpha. 2ppc+gauss has been around for 5+ months but it was countered by brawling when srms used to hurt. the ppc+gauss combo can be nerfed by making the difference between their velocities greater than now and maybe adjusting gauss rate of fire to 5.0s to prevent constant alphas and force players to aim twice.

LOL ! Gauss 1 ERPPC 3 SRM6 was my standard D-DC build, long before the Rise of PPC

3rdworld, on 25 July 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

If you have ever played a competitive match you would know, that no one runs a 6 ppc stalker.

It is a mech to troll nubs. It clearly worked.

I have seen 3 6PPC Stalkers in 8man play in one Match. *shrug* I thought ONLY Competitive players haunt the 8 Man circuit. I was in a Drop earlier this month where every player on the 8man team had a PPC right down to the Spider. I don't believe your assertion sir.

[Stoicblitzer]

3rdworld, on 25 July 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

If you have ever played a competitive match you would know, that no one runs a 6 ppc stalker.

It is a mech to troll nubs. It clearly worked.

actually, clan snow raven brought one against us in run hot or die semifinals. their gamble worked and they got alpine for the one game that they won. i thought it was quite a good idea considering how much of a campy snipefest the game had become at that point.

[3rdworld]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 July 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

I have seen 3 6PPC Stalkers in 8man play in one Match. *shrug* I thought ONLY Competitive players haunt the 8 Man circuit. I was in a Drop earlier this month where every player on the 8man team had a PPC right down to the Spider. I don't believe your assertion sir.

random 8 man != competitive match

Stoicblitzer, on 25 July 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

actually, clan snow raven brought one against us in run hot or die semifinals. their gamble worked and they got alpine for the one game that they won. i thought it was quite a good idea considering how much of a campy snipefest the game had become at that point.

I would like to see tape of that one.

I personally have never seen one in an 8 man let alone a comp match. And hell I have over 18 hours of just my pov comp matches recorded since February.

Edited by 3rdworld, 25 July 2013 - 12:31 PM.

[Vincent Quatermain]

Mystere, on 25 July 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

If a Spider with a single ERPPC is giving you problems, you have even bigger problems waiting for you.

Let's all take note of which side in this argument is the one actually using the "L2P noob" argument, because it's not the people calling for balance at the high-ELO level.

That being said . . .

The ERPPC Spider IS a good build. Also when you think about the canon loadouts for the Spider, the ERPPC Spider is just as ridiculous as the BoomJager and Snipelander, if not more so. Why are people using it so much? It can't be a "boating" issue -- they only have ONE ERPPC. Could it be that PPCs are too strong individually and that boating them just increases their awesomeness? You know because 4>3>2>1 due to maths?

Nope, let's delude ourselves about "boating" and have PGI waste dev hours on "solutions" to non-problems. Clearly, that will make everything work.

Edited by Vincent Quatermain, 25 July 2013 - 12:31 PM.

[Fire and Salt]

An erppc spider is like the IS version of the pack hunter. Doesn't seem too ridiculous to me...

[Twisted Power]

Let me fix the original post for the OP:
Competitive players use mechs that kill people and stomp all over rtarded mechs made by people who want to run bad builds for shlts and giggles and since they get WTFROFLPWNED they b'tch and we lose 5-7 man drop groups making the game spiral downward and reduce the people who want to play.

But because people who want to run really bad builds have an opinion and they lose often, they need to have their concerns addressed RIGHT NOW. So PGI has decided they WILL fix the problems (because there actually are quite a few legit problems) but in all the wrong ways and make both types of players go WTF?

This means that if competitive players did not exists then everybody would just have shlts and giggles and the world would be perfect and rainbow, butterflies, and puppies!!!

Edited by Twisted Power, 25 July 2013 - 12:38 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

3rdworld, on 25 July 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

random 8 man != competitive match



I would like to see tape of that one.

I personally have never seen one in an 8 man let alone a comp match. And hell I have over 18 hours of just my pov comp matches recorded since February.

How would I know if they were or were not a Competitive team? I haven't gone 8 man in months. I thought only the elite went into 8man land!

Fire and Salt, on 25 July 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

An erppc spider is like the IS version of the pack hunter. Doesn't seem too ridiculous to me...

What makes it... wrong to me is only one weapon. Always have a back up!

Twisted Power, on 25 July 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

Let me fix the original post for the OP:
Competitive players use mechs that kill people and stomp all over rtarded mechs made by people who want to run bad builds for shlts and giggles and since they get WTFROFLPWNED they b'tch and we lose 5-7 man drop groups making the game spiral downward and reduce the people who want to play.

But because people who want to run really bad builds have an opinions and they lose often, they need to have their concerns addressed RIGHT NOW. So PGI has decided they WILL fix the problems (because there actually are quite a few legit problems) but in all the wrong ways and make both types of players go WTF?

This means that if competitive players did not exists then everybody would just have shlts and giggles and the world would be perfect and rainbow, butterflies, and puppies!!!

No. It would mean that the "Present" power build would be receiving rage.

[PropagandaWar]

I go into 8-mans once in a great while and I didnt really come across 7 asshaaults and 1 runner. Its more mixed. I think the last 7ish i played we only dealt with one of those "Comp" lances. My group brought whatever the hell we felt like bringing.

[Joseph Mallan]

PropagandaWar, on 25 July 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

I go into 8-mans once in a great while and I didnt really come across 7 asshaaults and 1 runner. Its more mixed. I think the last 7ish i played we only dealt with one of those "Comp" lances. My group brought whatever the hell we felt like bringing.

True the class mix was better a couple weeks ago, but PPCs were on most of the Mechs.

[Stoicblitzer]

3rdworld, on 25 July 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

I would like to see tape of that one.

I personally have never seen one in an 8 man let alone a comp match. And hell I have over 18 hours of just my pov comp matches recorded since February.

i just checked our guy's twitch channel and i guess it doesn't save all broadcasts. i'll see if keith remembers.

[Mystere]

Vincent Quatermain, on 25 July 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Let's all take note of which side in this argument is the one actually using the "L2P noob" argument, because it's not the people calling for balance at the high-ELO level.

Given that Elo is hidden, how do you know who precisely is at the "high-Elo" level?

That being said ...

Vincent Quatermain, on 25 July 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

The ERPPC Spider IS a good build. Also when you think about the canon loadouts for the Spider, the ERPPC Spider is just as ridiculous as the BoomJager and Snipelander, if not more so. Why are people using it so much? It can't be a "boating" issue -- they only have ONE ERPPC. Could it be that PPCs are too strong individually and that boating them just increases their awesomeness?

I don't know about other people, but I use an ERPPC on one of my spiders for it's anti-ECM effect. It's much easier to reveal the type and location of an ECM-carrier, and any other mechs under it's umbrella, by shooting it rather than typing.

If I were going for damage alone, I'd be using something else.

Vincent Quatermain, on 25 July 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Nope, let's delude ourselves about "boating" and have PGI waste dev hours on "solutions" to non-problems. Clearly, that will make everything work.

And just to be perfectly clear, I have no problems with boating or any other "imbalances" that have been whined, raged, ranted, QQed, or simply talked about. I just deal with it when I see one. So look somewhere else.

Edited by Mystere, 25 July 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Vincent Quatermain]

Fire and Salt, on 25 July 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

An erppc spider is like the IS version of the pack hunter. Doesn't seem too ridiculous to me...

Yes, we are seeing a bunch of people in MWO use a gimmick mech from 9 years in the future developed with Clan tech, but doing so on a old-tech chassis that, by canon, is a lightly armed scout. An ERPPC Spider *should* be a joke build like the flamer swayback. But no, its one of a tiny handful of competition-grade light mechs.

Why?

It's right there in the name. It's an ERPPC Spider. Press MWO's "I win" button, and you win.

[Feetwet]

Twisted Power, on 25 July 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

Let me fix the original post for the OP:
Competitive players use mechs that kill people and stomp all over rtarded mechs made by people who want to run bad builds for shlts and giggles and since they get WTFROFLPWNED they b'tch and we lose 5-7 man drop groups making the game spiral downward and reduce the people who want to play.

But because people who want to run really bad builds have an opinion and they lose often, they need to have their concerns addressed RIGHT NOW. So PGI has decided they WILL fix the problems (because there actually are quite a few legit problems) but in all the wrong ways and make both types of players go WTF?

This means that if competitive players did not exists then everybody would just have shlts and giggles and the world would be perfect and rainbow, butterflies, and puppies!!!

Ok, just stop. I remember those days and yes getting roll stomped by 8 mans was horrible. I did not complain but I know people did. But claiming that getting rid of the 8 man group roll stomps was the cause of the lose of population is just silly. My group tends to have 3 - 5 and yes not being able to take 5 sux but nobody in my group quit over it. There are a lot of things that can be used to retain new players...I'm pretty sure allowing 8 man organized 2 minute slaughters is NOT one of them.

S

[Joseph Mallan]

Vincent Quatermain, on 25 July 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Yes, we are seeing a bunch of people in MWO use a gimmick mech from 9 years in the future developed with Clan tech, but doing so on a old-tech chassis that, by canon, is a lightly armed scout. An ERPPC Spider *should* be a joke build like the flamer swayback. But no, its one of a tiny handful of competition-grade light mechs.

Why?

It's right there in the name. It's an ERPPC Spider. Press MWO's "I win" button, and you win.

Personally I am all for practicing for the oncoming Clan forces. The more clan like My enemies now the better I will be at handling them when he real thing is in game.

[Perigrinial]

3rdworld, on 24 July 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

I don't know about not coexisting.

For instance the AC/40 or splat cat, were not and have never been issues to competitive players.

But people think unbalanced against pugs.

That is an instance in which "casual" balance is different than "competitive" balance.

They are supposed to be separated via ELO. But that isn't working either because the matchmaker is screwed or player counts are lower than needed for it to be effective.

The matchmaker and ELO are completely borked.

[Feetwet]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 July 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Personally I am all for practicing for the oncoming Clan forces. The more clan like My enemies now the better I will be at handling them when he real thing is in game.

Uac20...yikes.

[Vincent Quatermain]

Mystere, on 25 July 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Given that Elo is hidden, how do you know who precisely is at the "high-Elo" level?

I play in a unit with several hundred active players with a wide variety of player skill levels. You can definitely tell who the high-Elo players are, and every last one of them will tell you that the meta is stale because the balance is way off, particularly because PPCs are too good relative to other weapons.

These are not outliers. These are the people who are in the best position to know what the current balance is. They also only want to make the game better by INCREASING the amount of GOOD options. This would help everyone, regardless of Elo.