578 replies to this topic

[AntiCitizenJuan]

MaddMaxx, on 25 July 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Well then. What everyone "else" should do is sit back and let the few tell the many what is best for them? BS. Those you would call WK's are actually other players, many of whom have played the game as much, or more, and understand that the Dev had to start somewhere and that start may not always be to everyones likings, and the "Banner Bunch" make sure they know that, but that doesn't mean they can change the foundation just for ***** and giggles.

If you or anyone truly finds the game to be distasteful then move the **** on already. And don't even start with that disingenuous BS about how "we" care more than the "supposed "bads". It is near puke inducing.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and calling people names and insulting whole classes of individuals (shortbus - really?) show nothing but the lack of class one has. Grow up and be an adult or move on. What you think is a contribution is actually not.

Never insulted anyone as mentally handicapped, so dont know what youre going on about there. I'm one of this game harshest critics, but I also know its an unfinished game. I'm saying that the OP has insinuated that the problem with the meta lies with the competitive crowd, who uses min/max builds to win. They do it because it isnt worth playing with anything else. The weapon balance is ****** up. Until they fix that, it'll stay the way it is. Dont blame the players, blame the game.

I'm not wrong. An *******? Probably, but I'm not wrong here, in any sense of the word.
Stating the problem is the players abusing the meta and not the actual meta is sheer idiocy.

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 25 July 2013 - 08:34 AM.

[Stoicblitzer]

Kunae, on 25 July 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

PGI is balancing for the moment, rather than for the long term. I wish they would actually balance for the long-term, and explain it when they do. Right now they show no movement towards actually doing this.

but but they normalized™ large pulse lasers in preparation for a "balance pass" in the future. they also released phoenix which could be considered retirement planning for when they all (except karl berg) get fired. pgi long-term planning/balancing working as intended™.

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 25 July 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[DaZur]

Praehotec8, on 25 July 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

However, it begins to seem to me that perhaps battletech is inherently imbalanced in terms of its weapons and mechs, and particularly the FPS translation seems to always have balance issues of some sort when player customization is allowed (see prior mechwarrior titles that are frequently discussed on here).

Until then...sorry, but it's ridiculous to expect perfect balance.

DING..DING..DING! We got a winner!

This is one of the most difficult things for a competitive player to appreciate. The BT universe, Mechwarrior and the mechanics behind it are inherently flawed and imbalanced... Much of which is what draws us to the particular genre...

While aggressive global balancing does ultimately create a nominal / linear arena conducive to competitive play... It also runs the risk of neutralizing many of the defining / awkward bits of the IP many of use find intriguing.

[Greyfyl]

These people that take games so seriously are the bane of much of the gaming community. They are usually vocal about making sure the game is balanced completely around their gaming experience even though in most online gaming communities they represent only a very small portion of the overall number of players. And they often don't care about the rest of the community because of the pros 'know what's best' mentality.

Often game communities would be much better off if the casual players had their own servers/versions of the game. Yes, I realize that would be an impossibility in reality, but it sure would be nice. Sort of like the whole PUG vs Premade debate.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

DaZur, on 25 July 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

DING..DING..DING! We got a winner!

This is one of the most difficult things for a competitive player to appreciate. The BT universe, Mechwarrior and the mechanics behind it are inherently flawed and imbalanced... Much of which is what draws us to the particular genre...

While aggressive global balancing does ultimately create a nominal / linear arena conducive to competitive play... It also runs the risk of neutralizing many of the defining / awkward bits of the IP many of use find intriguing.

So let's blame the players for using PPC+Gauss because nothing else is as good, rather than bring notice to the developers that the game has become a 1 dimensional cheese-fest because those weapons are blatantly overpowered.

[IceSerpent]

MaddMaxx, on 25 July 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Well then. What everyone "else" should do is sit back and let the few tell the many what is best for them? BS. Those you would call WK's are actually other players, many of whom have played the game as much, or more, and understand that the Dev had to start somewhere and that start may not always be to everyones likings, and the "Banner Bunch" make sure they know that, but that doesn't mean they can change the foundation just for ***** and giggles.

You see, the thing is that it doesn't matter how many or few people are saying something - only the contents of the message are important. If it's a good idea, it's a good idea even if only one person says it. If it's a bad idea, it's a bad idea even if hundreds of people say it. 10,000 lemmings actually can be wrong (and often are).

[Stoicblitzer]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 July 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

So let's blame the players for using PPC+Gauss because nothing else is as good, rather than bring notice to the developers that the game has become a 1 dimensional cheese-fest because those weapons are blatantly overpowered.

and now we circled back around....

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 25 July 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 July 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Never insulted anyone as mentally handicapped, so dont know what youre going on about there. I'm one of this game harshest critics, but I also know its an unfinished game. I'm saying that the OP has insinuated that the problem with the meta lies with the competitive crowd, who uses min/max builds to win. They do it because it isnt worth playing with anything else. The weapon balance is ****** up. Until they fix that, it'll stay the way it is. Dont blame the players, blame the game.

I'm not wrong. An *******? Probably, but I'm not wrong here, in any sense of the word.
Stating the problem is the players abusing the meta and not the actual meta is sheer idiocy.

I think many folks totally agree with your premise. Problem is, there may not be a true solution that will appease everyone. If that is the case then what? Simply continue to rail against the man until "you" get what "you" want and then just laugh at all the other poor slobs who didn't get what "they" wanted.

Or, try and find some common ground that everyone can stand on and say, OK, this ain't half bad. Or is that the real pipe dream that separate the WK's from the "others" among us?

[DaZur]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 July 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

So let's blame the players for using PPC+Gauss because nothing else is as good, rather than bring notice to the developers that the game has become a 1 dimensional cheese-fest because those weapons are blatantly overpowered.

A competative player may see it as a contribution to the "cheese-fest"... But the reality is they are the apex weapons in the game, in TT, in canon and in every PC iteration thus far and are supposed to be overpowered.

This is the crux of my original premise... Mechwarrior is inherently unbalanced and the requirements of the competitive player and their respective arena is not necessarily what's in the best interest of the game to retain it's ground-roots origins of the IP. There is a huge diametric difference between the wants / needs of a fan of the IP and the wants and needs of a competitive player sometimes...

Edited by DaZur, 25 July 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

IceSerpent, on 25 July 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

You see, the thing is that it doesn't matter how many or few people are saying something - only the contents of the message are important. If it's a good idea, it's a good idea even if only one person says it. If it's a bad idea, it's a bad idea even if hundreds of people say it. 10,000 lemmings actually can be wrong (and often are).

Can't argue that, but, that is not the point. Many have stated, many times, that "their" idea(s) are the "best" and simply want the Dev to forget the "rest".

And perhaps those "rest" should actually just stand by and remain silent? What is good for the Goose remember...

Edited by MaddMaxx, 25 July 2013 - 08:49 AM.

[Vincent Quatermain]

Unbound Inferno, on 24 July 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

You are mistaken. "Highlighting" the issue, then using and abusing it is what causes even more of it to occur, thus the issue grows worse.

The OP is right, competitive players that min/max builds makes the problem worse.

False. Consider that currently there is an over-abundance of PPC mechs.

Is the problem "too many PPCs" or is that just a symptom of "PPCs are too good"?

You are treating symptoms rather than the cause.

[Rippthrough]

DaZur, on 25 July 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

This is the crux of my original premise... Mechwarrior is inherently unbalanced and the requirements of the competitive player and their respective arena is not necessarily what's in the best interest of the game to retain it's ground-roots origins of the IP. There is a huge diametric difference between the wants / needs of a fan of the IP and the wants and needs of a competitive player sometimes...

Perhaps, but this is a game, not a book.

[MaddMaxx]

Vincent Quatermain, on 25 July 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

False. Consider that currently there is an over-abundance of PPC mechs.

Is the problem "too many PPCs" or is that just a symptom of "PPCs are too good"?

You are treating symptoms rather than the cause.

PPC's are PPC's. 10 points over decent range and doable Heat (currently even in 3's) Given that, the solution is what exactly?

Less Range? (they are a Long range weapon)
Less Damage? (they do 10 points, always have)
Even more Heat? (if only there was a Goldilock zone for PPC's)

Butcher the PPC enough and the LL will take its place. Butcher the LL and X will take its place. Butcher X and ....

Are we seeing a pattern here yet?

[MisterFiveSeven]

MaddMaxx, on 25 July 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

PPC's are PPC's. 10 points over decent range and doable Heat (currently even in 3's) Given that, the solution is what exactly?

Less Range? (they are a Long range weapon)
Less Damage? (they do 10 points, always have)
Even more Heat? (if only there was a Goldilock zone for PPC's)

Butcher the PPC enough and the LL will take its place. Butcher the LL and X will take its place. Butcher X and ....

Are we seeing a pattern here yet?

Maybe the solution is small, every-patch changes to tweak weapons until they see roughly equal proportions of use.

Everything doesn't have to butchered... if PGI wasn't so ham-fisted at balancing.

[Fire and Salt]

The game needs to be balanced so that competitive players aren't forced to all use similar builds. Generally this means 6 assault mechs with ppcs/gauss and a few harassers.

Sure, you can blame the competitive players for using them, but the only way to fix the problem is to make tweaks - ex add more heat to the PPCs.

This doesn't mean that the game needs to be balanced only for the competitive players.
Example: LRMs are not as useful against a well coordinated 8 man team as they are against pugs. You could double the current LRM damage, and the best teams would probably still have no more than 100 lrms on an 8 man team - because a smart team can make lrms worthless on several maps.

However, in pugs - the LRM apocalypse would dominate. Thus, the lrm will never be a primary weapon in the competitive scene, without screwing up the pug scene.


In the reverse - the speed of ppcs were buffed so that they were more easily used. This may be good in the low elo games, but it causes the 2x ppc on every mech problem that is seen in the 8 man queue.



IMO it is OK if lrms are shelf weapons in high elo and PPC are shelf weapons in low elo. What's not OK is when a weapon is shelved across elo ranges - ex: the lbx 10. In high elo brackets, people just use an ac10 instead. In low elo brackets, the ac10 is more useful - whether its known or not.

[Stoicblitzer]

MaddMaxx, on 25 July 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

PPC's are PPC's. 10 points over decent range and doable Heat (currently even in 3's) Given that, the solution is what exactly?

Less Range? (they are a Long range weapon)
Less Damage? (they do 10 points, always have)
Even more Heat? (if only there was a Goldilock zone for PPC's)

Butcher the PPC enough and the LL will take its place. Butcher the LL and X will take its place. Butcher X and ....

Are we seeing a pattern here yet?

with all due respect, i think you're wrong. something approaching balance is possible. there are two constraints players must keep in mind when building a mech. heat and tonnage. with those in mind, it is possible to tweak weapon properties such as ammo/ton, weight, heat, range, velocity, etc so that "balance" can be achieved. TT is a good starting point for these properties but things need to be changed because this is a videogame. pgi likes to talk about pyramids and layers. i'm not sure the foundation/bottom layer of this game is working as intended™ enough for utopian balance to happen. by foundation i mean the heat system and hit detection among other things.

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 25 July 2013 - 09:18 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Feetwet, on 24 July 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

I really am only confused by one thing though:

1. It seems to that the competitive player only has fun while winning
2. This is accomplished by min/max ing
3. The current meta has builds that reflect 2

With the above in mind I don't understand why competitive players want balance. You want to win...and your winning what does it matter how?

On a side note what do you think the percentage of competitive players is to scrubs?

S

Winning alone is never sufficient. If players would just want that, we could have a game with a red and a green button and the green button says: "You win!", "+1000 Points" and the one with the red button says: "You lose. Try again!". That wouldn't be much fun.

The fun is in feeling you overcame a challenge. THat is also why some people deliberately gimp themselves, because they feel that is a challenge. But in the competitive environment, people will try to max out on everything, because they want their enemy to do the same - they want to be challenged. Maybe being victorious with a bad build is satisfying, but being victorious against a bad build is hollow - you kinda expected to win against an inferior build.

And so, competitive players keep optimizing.

But when they reach a point where they have found the best builds, and see everyone else taking them... Yeah, the game might still be more entertaining then the Red/Green button game, but it is also not much about the 1 small laser Commando Game some people create as the strawman for a balanced game.

[MustrumRidcully]

MaddMaxx, on 25 July 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

PPC's are PPC's. 10 points over decent range and doable Heat (currently even in 3's) Given that, the solution is what exactly?

Less Range? (they are a Long range weapon)
Less Damage? (they do 10 points, always have)
Even more Heat? (if only there was a Goldilock zone for PPC's)

Butcher the PPC enough and the LL will take its place. Butcher the LL and X will take its place. Butcher X and ....

Are we seeing a pattern here yet?

Don't butcher it, balance it.

I want the Quad LL boat competitive with he Quad PP boat and also competitive with a bunch of other, non-boated builds.

But let's pretend for a moment PGI doesn'T know what to do anymore, and just remove the PPC completely. That would be better for balance then what we have now, because while you can build a Quad LL bat (/or a Quad ER LL boat, or a Quintuple LL boat or whatever), this weapon suddenly doesn't deal instant pinpoint damage anymore. You need to hold the beam on target for a full second now, which means, unless both you and the target are stationary, that the damage is likely to spread.

[giganova]

Kunae, on 25 July 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

Pft. Only because you're one of the ones it's directed towards, yet you are unwilling to admit that it does apply to you.

There are a number of topics that have been brought up, by bads who need to learn to play, in the last few months, as examples here are two:

Dual AC20 mechs.
'Splat Cats.

Neither are "OP", as they are both easily countered, if you know how to play this game. Only bads raise hell about them.


Yep, you have proven that you are a know-nothing scrub.

Good job!

No need to get apoplectic. I've been registered here longer than you have. Besides, slinging insults are a great sign that you've lost the argument. Way to be even more naive and hyperbolic, BTW. You remind me of a Creationist:

Creationist: "Where's the evidence for evolution?!"
Rational Man: "Here's the fossil record..."
Creationist: "Where's the proof?!?"
Rational Man: "It's... right there... in the fossil record..."
Creationist: "I'm not seeing it."
Rational Man: "Don't know what to tell ya, it's all right there..."
Creationist: "Nope, evidence refuted!"
Rational Man: "Seriously? There's a museum of natural history, like, five blocks away from.... nevermind..."
Creationist: "I WIN!"

I apologize if I've offended anyone using this analogy, but it's true. There's only so many times one can point out evidence, if the other party involved wants nothing to do with it, then the argument is moot.

[RF Greywolf]

Wow, to tell you the truth this thread actually started to hurt my mind reading. Now I like to classify myself as a "casual" gamer, which in my mind a casual gamer doesn't play often due to time constraints, plays to relax and unwind, and generally could care less about my KDR or W/L ratio. Now before everyone starts tearing me a new one because I don't care about my stats, let me explain myself a little. To me the stats in this game are just that: stats in a game. It means nothing to me outside of this game. It's not going to help me succeed in my career, or in my day to day life. Now I am not beating down the serious gamers out there. If that's what you do then power to you and good luck with it!

I think everyone agrees that this game needs balance to survive and prosper, right? In this extent I believe that EVRYONE's opinion and ideas should be heard and given thought to. I agree with many people in this post that balance needs to be achieved for the "meta" builds to go away. Well not go away just become more uncommon. However, there was something that was said that I need some clarification on.

xDeityx, on 25 July 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

I've seen this argument before, that certain builds just don't work for certain people. This is backwards though. Certain builds are objectively better, so if you aren't performing better in those builds then it is a piloting issue. I'm not trying to be offensive or anything but the idea that you are a special snowflake who just can't do well in an objectively better 'mech is much less likely to be true than the far simpler explanation that you don't like the piloting style that those builds play to so you don't pilot them properly.

Once again this is just for clarification xDeityx, with no offense meant. By your comment I read that only specific play styles should be allowed? The fact that maybe someone doesn't like the play style or it just doesn't work right for them that it's too bad, learn how to play them properly? Or the fact if you can't use the optimized builds then you are crap and shouldn't be playing the game?

Reading the rest of your post I don't think that you wanted it to sound that way which is why I am asking. The other reason I am bringing this up is that it seems that many of the optimized builds are connected closely to a single play style. I know that this is also part of the issue with the game since certain play styles can not compete due to unbalanced weapons and chassis.

Once again I mean no offense, just some clarity...
Greywolf