578 replies to this topic

[giganova]

Riogar Daylighter, on 25 July 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Do you have any proof of that?

Look at any competitive player's "Mech tier list" and said proof will become self-evident.

[Warge]

Kunae, on 25 July 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Pop-tarts only became so prolific due to the stupid changes PGI made, as I detailed.

Let's PGI first solve balance problems... only after that qouestion about poptarts should be raised.

[Kunae]

Warge, on 25 July 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Let's PGI first solve balance problems... only after that qouestion about poptarts should be raised.

Doesn't work.

PGI is balancing for the moment, rather than for the long term. I wish they would actually balance for the long-term, and explain it when they do. Right now they show no movement towards actually doing this.

[Riogar Daylighter]

DaZur, on 25 July 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

No offense intended but let's not feign naivety... Hyperbole is a forum maxim and no one here is above utilizing it.

Is there an example you can give me that I can look at that demonstrates a competitive player raising a false issue instead of an actual balance issue. If someone can do that it would greatly help your case. If you cannot then it's bs and a cheap shot. That goes with the other side as well.

Edit cleaning up bad grammar blah

Edited by Riogar Daylighter, 25 July 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[The Basilisk]

@ PO: Yes to the fact that in the MOMENTARY competetive gameplay some Mech Variants and some Weapons are deamed worthless.
Whats totaly wrong is the point of view you are choosing regarding the reason for imbalanced weapons.
Mechwarrior isn't some shooter sombody made up from dust.
Every weapon and every Mech is strongly tied to the Tabletop Battletech.
The Imbalance derives from the much more diverse background of the battletechnology in the Battletech Universe.
Main factors in this Universe are weapons cost and much more importent their availability !!!!
So some weapons are simply used because they are cheap and/or easy to get.
SRMs, standart light AC (5 and 2) are cheap easy to get battlefield weapons.
PPCs, Laser (especialy impulse), LRM and last but not least Gauss are very expensive and scarce weapons.
Assault mechs should be existing in a 1/10 proportion to medium Mechs. And so on.
The main rroblem of this Game is the lack of its origins main balancing factor.

[Warge]

Kunae, on 25 July 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

PGI is balancing for the moment, rather than for the long term.

PGI-style.

[MechFrog1]

James The Fox Dixon, on 25 July 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

I've seen far more whining and crying from the 'elite' players of MWO then I have from the new players. Just saying...

What new players?

[AntiCitizenJuan]

James The Fox Dixon, on 25 July 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

I've seen far more whining and crying from the 'elite' players of MWO then I have from the new players. Just saying...

Guess who the people are who have played the game enough to realize whats broken?
Sure as **** aint the new players, or the badkids

[DaZur]

Kunae, on 25 July 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Fool wants to claim bull-crap, and broad-brush bull-crap at that, he better have something to back it up with. Good players will, as a whole, not do this. Whereas bad players will tend to gravitate towards hyperbole to get PGI to change something that they can't handle or comprehend. Mostly they need to learn to play.

Riogar Daylighter, on 25 July 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Is there an example you can give me that I can look at that demonstrates a competitive player raising a false issue instead of an actual balance issue.

Seriously?! Neither of you are willing to admit that regardless what side of the isle ones convictions lye... "everyone" has at one point and time embellished and or made effort to hide a truism for the sake of accentuating ones point?

And folks say I'm a denialist....

[Riogar Daylighter]

DaZur, on 25 July 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

[/size]
Seriously?! Neither of you are willing to admit that regardless what side of the isle ones convictions lye... "everyone" has at one point and time embellished and or made effort to hide a truism for the sake of accentuating ones point?

And folks say I'm a denialist....

My convictions are on neither side at the moment why I ask for proof. Im not going to find it for you it's your job to convince me in this discussion I asked for proof of the side of the poster claiming that competitive players raise false issues. I want to believe you but I can't without proof. I can honestly say to my knowledge I have never done anything like that on these boards.

Show me proof. If not then admit there isn't any and move on.

[Feetwet]

I think we are getting groups of new players all the time. What I'm curious about is how many of them are sticking around...PGI?

S

[Kaldor]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 July 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

Guess who the people are who have played the game enough to realize whats broken? Sure as **** aint the new players, or the badkids

I fall into the average kids. Just slightly above badkids, who rank just above shortbus kids.

However, even an average player can see the faults. I play alot of different weight classes and builds. I can see the problems from each side. Alot of good players do the same.

[Kunae]

DaZur, on 25 July 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

[/size] Seriously?! Neither of you are willing to admit that regardless what side of the isle ones convictions lye... "everyone" has at one point and time embellished and or made effort to hide a truism for the sake of accentuating ones point? And folks say I'm a denialist....

No, you're trying to use exceptions to prove a rule.

The poster, in question, phrased it to imply that the majority of the time, the experienced players are denying there's a problem when it concerns the system that they use heavily.

The reverse is true. 90% of the time, the BS and spurious, self-serving QQ's and requests, are made by know-nothing bads, who haven't made the slightest effort to figure out the easy counters to what they're complaining about.

James The Fox Dixon, on 25 July 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

I've seen far more whining and crying from the 'elite' players of MWO then I have from the new players. Just saying...

Incorrect, young man.

You see bitching about actual broken things, from those you classify as "elite" players. The predominant BS whines are brought up by people who should know better, but don't.

PGI has a knack for breaking things that didn't need to be "fixed", then taking 6 months to put in a system to fix what they broke, but that "fix" breaks 6 other things that they may fix with another "system", 4 months later.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Kaldor, on 25 July 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

I fall into the average kids. Just slightly above badkids, who rank just above shortbus kids.

However, even an average player can see the faults. I play alot of different weight classes and builds. I can see the problems from each side. Alot of good players do the same.

According to the OP, only competitive players comlain because they want to manipulate the game to their own ends, rather than change the meta to be more balanced. It's usually the people who are too stupid to realize, or are actually abusing the broken meta, who come like white knights, sackriding into the sunset, to defend it.

[xDeityx]

Rippthrough, on 25 July 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

Perhaps you can be good , but if you don't understand why that build is so good, or why to target that mech first, then you're never going to be as good as people who do.

When we drop as a clan it's very rare that targets need to be called because everyone is already shooting the right mech

Sort of. Everyone on the team doesn't have to be a mastermind at eeking out every last bit of performance from a build, you just have to have a certain bare minimum of skill at valuation. Focusing targets draws heavily on a combination of valuation and awareness. Certain 'mechs need to be taken down quickly but if they aren't in a position to do so then focusing them means putting your team out of position. Also you have to know where your teammates are when focusing because in a chaotic situation if you call a target that half your team has no line of sight to, bad things happen. Players need to understand why it works so you're right in that you do need a bare minimum of valuation skill, but after you reach a certain point you don't need that skill broadly across every member of your team. Only at the very uppermost tiers of play is it a requirement that every single player on the team have that skill. At lower (but still competitive) levels, you can just get by with telling people what builds to run and calling targets for them.

MechWarrior is much less focused on testing valuation than a game like chess where the entire name of the game is recognizing which pieces are more valuable in certain board setups (e.g. the maxim that bishops are good in open games and knights are a bit better in closed games, or that the pawns holding the center tend to be more valuable then those at the fringes).

Joseph Mallan, on 25 July 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

Just so you understand, My team has tried to tell me and a few others what to bring a few times. They gave up. I performed BETTER in my designs than I did in the "Competitive" ones. We have a member that it really doesn't matter the load out He kills more opponents in what he wants to play that any competitive builds. So keep thinking the build makes your chances greater, Its the player not the equipment that is important.

I've seen this argument before, that certain builds just don't work for certain people. This is backwards though. Certain builds are objectively better, so if you aren't performing better in those builds then it is a piloting issue. I'm not trying to be offensive or anything but the idea that you are a special snowflake who just can't do well in an objectively better 'mech is much less likely to be true than the far simpler explanation that you don't like the piloting style that those builds play to so you don't pilot them properly.

[Snowhawk]

Both player groups are the same.... a competitive player is just an evolved casual gamer. Sooner or later, we all will be "competitive players"...

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Snowhawk, on 25 July 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Both player groups are the same.... a competitive player is just an evolved casual gamer. Sooner or later, we all will be "competitive players"...

Not necessarily.

A competitive gamer is just a noob who evolved over time.
A casual gamer is someone who doesn't take gaming so seriously, ususally do to lack of time

[Praehotec8]

The competitive player does not create the imbalances for certain. However, they do exploit them (as has previously been stated ad nauseum).

However, it begins to seem to me that perhaps battletech is inherently imbalanced in terms of its weapons and mechs, and particularly the FPS translation seems to always have balance issues of some sort when player customization is allowed (see prior mechwarrior titles that are frequently discussed on here). Various players have suggested fixes that no two individuals can seem to agree on, which is likely because all the suggestions fix one problem but create additional ones (see the recent heat fix for example...and changing convergence would just introduce a RNG).

I think that perhaps the game cannot truly be balanced for competitive play, and even then, there will likely be optimal builds and conversely, "bad" builds. This is perfectly fine for the casuals, who will play whatever they (we) like, however and whenever we like. It doesn't work well for players who feel the need to exploit the system however is needed to win.

Perhaps the elite players need to just relax a little and enjoy the game for what it is. I don't agree with all the choices made regarding balance and certainly wish the game was progressing to completion faster, but it IS progressing. When one of the player base creates a complete balance paradigm that fixes everyhing, is totally balanced, and the entire community agrees is the optimal way to balance the game....then PGI ought to implement it, and the game will be perfect. Until then...sorry, but it's ridiculous to expect perfect balance.

[DaZur]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 July 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

According to the OP, only competitive players complain because they want to manipulate the game to their own ends, rather than change the meta to be more balanced. It's usually the people who are too stupid to realize, or are actually abusing the broken meta, who come like white knights, sackriding into the sunset, to defend it.

I said no such thing... I simply stated that the very nature of competitive play, competitive players exploit given flaws in mechanics broken or not which in turn exacerbates perceived balance issues.

I do a good enough job sticking my foot in my mouth without folks mis-quoting me...

[MaddMaxx]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 July 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

According to the OP, only competitive players complain because they want to manipulate the game to their own ends, rather than change the meta to be more balanced. It's usually the people who are too stupid to realize, or are actually abusing the broken meta, who come like white knights, sackriding into the sunset, to defend it.

/rant on

Well then. What everyone "else" should do is sit back and let the few tell the many what is best for them? BS. Those you would call WK's are actually other players, many of whom have played the game as much, or more, and understand that the Dev had to start somewhere and that start may not always be to everyones likings, and the "Banner Bunch" make sure they know that, but that doesn't mean they can change the foundation just for ***** and giggles.

If you or anyone truly finds the game to be distasteful then move the **** on already. And don't even start with that disingenuous BS about how "we" care more than the "supposed "bads". It is near puke inducing.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and calling people names and insulting whole classes of individuals (shortbus - really?) show nothing but the lack of class one has. Grow up and be an adult or move on. What you think is a contribution is actually not.

/rant off

Apologies, not railing on the poster per say, just that this stuff gets my goat sometimes.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 25 July 2013 - 08:36 AM.