578 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 July 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

I thought that was what you meant. Yes Wood bats at the Pro level, but has that trickled down to college and lil league levels?

sorry for being OT but,

Although it has not trickled, many would argue that Pro style wooden Bats are to expense, and can be easily broken, versus the Aluminum and now graphite bats used in those leagues.

DaZur, on 25 July 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

Understandably at face-value is does sound like oxymoron of logic...

That said, to still contribute positively despite fielding a sub-optimized build is a self-imposed challenge, thus it is justified in my mind. Long and short... "Yes" if I showed up in a garbage mech and was an absolute burden to the team... ImDoingItWrong. If I continue to contribute despite my decision... no one should have room to judge my decision.

Roger that. I guess many simply look at the "damage" number at the end, and never the true contribution one can make outside of just brute damage.

Joseph Mallan, on 25 July 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

I used a single ERPPC with My Gauss Before they nerfed the heat. It worked just fine. Very fine I have to say.

Well that is you looked after. Bravo. I am sure you can also convince all those that will not be so easily pleased that a max. of 25 pts. for an Alpha is the cats meow on their Assault Mechs.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 25 July 2013 - 06:32 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MaddMaxx, on 25 July 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

sorry for being OT but,

Although it has not trickled, many would argue that Pro style wooden Bats are to expense, and can be easily broken, versus the Aluminum and now graphite bats used in those leagues.



Roger that. I guess many simply look at the "damage" number at the end, and never the true contribution one can make outside of just brute damage.

Aluminum Bats have been proven to give hitters at the pro level to much of an edge. Apparently a full grown adult male has to much strength/ability (or steroids) for them to be considered competitive at THAT level.

[tenderloving]

DaZur, on 25 July 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

Exercise: Most modern cars are capable of speeds far in excess of the legal limit. Should speeding be excused and the manufacturers held culpable for not mitigating all the speed related accidents and deaths?

Yes... It's an extreme hyperbole bordering on a strawman but it exemplifies what I think is a salient point.

Absolutely PGI is culpable of making mistakes in balance, thinking myopically and performing granular balance adjustments with a 4 meter lead pipe... That said, I still contend that we (I say "we" because all of use do it in one form or another) exacerbate the balance issues by self-justifying doing so as a means to an end and using the excuse that because PGI failed to adequately insulate their product (balancing) to mitigate the opportunity to abuse it's mechanics it's justified....

Yes, It's unicorn farts and pixie dust logic... but there is truth underlying the fallacy. I realize it's wishful thinking to think the community would self-police to encourage gainful game-play until such time the global balance issues are properly addressed...

I felt the same what when the prevailing hubbub was 8-man drops resulted in 10 Atlas-D's and 2 EMC Ravens... One would think the desire of the competitive player to form gentlemen's agreements amongst themselves to actuate a viable arena until such time PGI squared this away would be a logical resolution...

Instead it became apparent the overriding desire to win made it impossible achieve this...

PGI is culpable no doubt... But in fairness, we as a community continue do ourselves a disservice by not "helping ourselves" IMHO...

You keep trying to insert morality where it doesn't belong, and bring in scenarios that have nothing to do with competition or games.

If you admit that your argument borders on strawman you probably shouldn't make it. Driving is not a game. There is no win condition.

Never before in the history of games have the players self-policed. Look at cycling, look at soccer, look at professional racing and swimming and Quake. The players will do whatever possible to give themselves an edge until the guys running the game put some boundaries in place. It's why they say "No hitting below the belt." in boxing and why they have size restrictions on a goalie's pads and stick in hockey. It is NEVER the player's fault when they exploit a flaw in the game, and it is absurdly naive and ignorant of human nature to say otherwise.

Edited by tenderloving, 25 July 2013 - 06:33 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 July 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Aluminum Bats have been proven to give hitters at the pro level to much of an edge. Apparently a full grown adult male has to much strength/ability (or steroids) for them to be considered competitive at THAT level.

If everyone were to use them, where is this edge coming from? That is the same as saying buddies AC20 actually does 23 points because he somehow uses his different...

[giganova]

I agree with the OPs primary conclusion: separate drops for casual vs. competitive. I do think competitive players CAUSE balance issues, just by the very nature of their existence. It's also pretty striking to see a minority group (competitive players compared to casual players) being the ones ultimately responsible for balance changes. It's unfair to the overwhelming majority of other players.

Edited by giganova, 25 July 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

tenderloving, on 25 July 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

It is NEVER the player's fault when they exploit a flaw in the game, and it is absurdly naive and ignorant of human nature to say otherwise.

Horse shat! If I can play the game without using the "competitive" builds and win and have fun. Anybody can. That is MY nature and the last time I had it checked I was decidedly human.

[Feetwet]

MaddMaxx, on 25 July 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

Which begs the question (in a general sense).

Are you in fact a drag on the "TEAM"? Given that MWO is a "TEAM" game and played with 7 (soon to be 11) other players.

Why should the others have to take up your slack, if in fact your goal is to have "FUN", all the while wanting to "WIN" and even profess to taking, what you yourself classify, as a non optimal build with which to attempt said "WIN".

Seems to be a oxymoron of logic...

Generally I would agree with you on this. I need to do whats best for the team. The issue though is even in my "fun" builds, I'm still at the top of the match more often than not. My sub-optimum build is less of an issue than 3 guys running off in different directions and running smack into a lance that smashes them.

S

[Warge]

Kunae, on 25 July 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

To an extent, but they were always usable,

...for poptarts.

[MaddMaxx]

tenderloving, on 25 July 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

You keep trying to insert morality where it doesn't belong, and bring in scenarios that have nothing to do with competition or games.

If you admit that your argument borders on strawman you probably shouldn't make it. Driving is not a game. There is no win condition.

Never before in the history of games have the players self-policed. Look at cycling, look at soccer, look at professional racing and swimming and Quake. The players will do whatever possible to give themselves an edge until the guys running the game put some boundaries in place. It's why they say "No hitting below the belt." in boxing and why they have size restrictions on a goalie's pads and stick in hockey. It is NEVER the player's fault when they exploit a flaw in the game, and it is absurdly naive and ignorant of human nature to say otherwise.

Yet doing things that breach those rules are cause for Penalties. if we just relax and take a deep breath, perhaps PGI will set up those penalties such that being in breach of the rule, will in fact have a true detrimental effect on those who do breach.

Not every hockey stick has the same curve, but to much curve is in breach but in no way means one can't select the curve the find best suits them within that rule set. Same for MWO. Not all the Tools are the same. We just need a better, or stiffer penalty system.

Word is that is in the works btw,

[Joseph Mallan]

MaddMaxx, on 25 July 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

If everyone were to use them, where is this edge coming from? That is the same as saying buddies AC20 actually does 23 points because he somehow uses his different...

I'm not a physics major. The aluminum bats gave the Pro batters more velocity or some other mumbo jumbo. The point is at the pro level they are not allowed but at lower levels of play they are legal. So why should all levels of MWO be decided by one small group?

Pro= No aluminum
College= Aluminum
Lil league=Aluminum

See how it works there?

[tenderloving]

MaddMaxx, on 25 July 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

If everyone were to use them, where is this edge coming from? That is the same as saying buddies AC20 actually does 23 points because he somehow uses his different...

If a field is XXX feet long and the aluminum bat allows you to consistently hit XXX + 20 feet, then we now have games that are 75% home runs.

Joseph Mallan, on 25 July 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Horse shat! If I can play the game without using the "competitive" builds and win and have fun. Anybody can. That is MY nature and the last time I had it checked I was decidedly human.

You are intentionally making yourself less effective at winning. Your opponent cannot be counted on to do the same thing. This is where the "naive and ignorant of human nature" part kicks in.

Edited by tenderloving, 25 July 2013 - 06:42 AM.

[DaZur]

tenderloving, on 25 July 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

You keep trying to insert morality where it doesn't belong, and bring in scenarios that have nothing to do with competition or games.

It's not a morality premise it's a cognitive decision to maintain integrity despite having opportunity to do otherwise.

I'm sorry... but as perplexed as you are that someone (me) can forward a moral-based resolve, I'm equally perplexed that as intelligently advanced creatures that we are we cannot cast off the overriding primal ability to justify means with and end.

Edited by DaZur, 25 July 2013 - 06:48 AM.

[Kunae]

MaddMaxx, on 25 July 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

And you don't read so good. They were not used much when their Stats were set that way. Given HSR, Speed and Heat changes that took them off the shelf, should they all go back, or just the ones we now do not like, for some reason?

HSR was added after the heat and projectile speed changes were put in, and never reverted. They weren't used because you couldn't hit with them. They should never have changed the heat, etc, until after they put HSR in.

The nerfing of SRMs was the final trigger, as there were no counters to that meta anymore.

They have almost reversed their JJ-shake changes, at this point, and you haven't seen a huge, prolonged, resurgence of "pop-tarts". Why? Because SRM damage is closer to what it should be, so fast mediums and other brawlers can counter the snipers/"pop-tarts", as they're supposed to, in the whole "rock, paper, scissors" system they've said they're trying to build.

[MaddMaxx]

tenderloving, on 25 July 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

If a field is XXX feet long and the aluminum bat allows you to consistently hit XXX + 20 feet, then we now have games that are 75% home runs.

Then explain why not ALL pro baseball parks are the same size? And it is not because the Wooden Bats used consistently hit the ball XXX feet...obviously.

[Kunae]

Warge, on 25 July 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

...for poptarts.

So?

There is a place for pop-tarts, in this game. Just as there is a place for gauss-a-pults, splats and other builds.

Pop-tarts only became so prolific due to the stupid changes PGI made, as I detailed.

[DaZur]

wow... now we're talking Baseball?

This thread is never going end...

FWIW... scholastic & non pro baseball is working diligently to make aluminum bats illegal as well. Has to do with the velocity of the ball as it leaves the bat andpotential for inflicting blunt-force trauma...

[Feetwet]

I am well aware of human nature. I have been on the bottom of football piles with some j-hole reaching thru my facemask to poke me in the eye. It is a great piece of social commentary that we as a community can't be relied upon to do whats best for the community.

I have no numbers to back it up, but it seems to me that our numbers are down. I'm good enough, stupid enough, and having enough fun not to quit. This is not the case with everyone. This problem can't be solved with more queues, there aren't enough of us. It doesn't seem like PGI is capable of any real fix anytime soon. That leaves only one group...us.

Unfortunately that will not happen either. I have no issue with competitive players and understand where they are coming from. The problem arises when the 2 are mixed...the competitive still win and I have watched to many of the casuals quit.

S

[Wired]

I will note that comp players will raise false issues about portions of the game while ignoring real balance issues.

[Riogar Daylighter]

MaddMaxx, on 25 July 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Sadly, with the advent of the internet and then Social Media, the cast off bit has been societies "morality".

No one gives a **** anymore and depending on where you live, a man can shoot a boy to death who has but a bag of Skittles with which to defend himself with and go free.

True enough. No one really accepts responsibility for what is said or done anymore. It's always the other guys fault. Take these message boards for example. A lot has been said that is very inappropriate as well as conduct in game which would never be tolerated in a face to face encounter. I know welcome to the Internet right. Eventually it will change and has been changing. Look at the boy who decided to make a bad joke on Facebook. Potentially getting 8 yeaRs in jail. Whether or not that is justice is irrelevant that fact it is happening makes ya think.

Wired, on 25 July 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

I will note that comp players will raise false issues about portions of the game while ignoring real balance issues.

Do you have any proof of that?

[Kunae]

Wired, on 25 July 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

I will note that comp players will raise false issues about portions of the game while ignoring real balance issues.

That's bullcrap.