1453 R, on 16 August 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:
There's something of a misunderstanding at play here, Marmon.
Despite what Victor thinks, I'm not actually arguing that bad guns are not bad, or that bad 'Mechs are not bad. I can't find any more realistic a purpose for non-1X Blackjacks than anyone else, and I wish to note that my best/favorite 'Mech – my DRG-FLAME – used to run the LBX/SRM scattershot striker build but has since migrated to Gauss/mediums because that's about the only thing you can realistically do with it. I love the LB/X-10 autocannon, it's quite possibly my favorite weapon in this game based on raw feel, but I don't actually use it anymore.
Fundamentally, I'm arguing two things. One, that there exists a greater range of viable – not optimal, but not terrible, either – weapons/builds at the raw noob level than is indicated by this guide. Large lasers and Ultra autocannons still work down here, Catapults are still cool down here, Trebuchets aren't instant death down here. The sorts of players who're interested in raw, bleeding-edge optimization at the expense of absolutely everything else – including fun, for the most part – are not going to be reading guides to obtain that information, they're going to be joining competitive units and learning directly from folks like Victor. Provided, of course, that they don't fall victim to the more recent second line of argument I've opened given some of the responses in this thread.
This thread
again is about optimal 'mechs, and the best configurations. I don't know how many times I can explain that. It is not about "what works at lower levels." It's about "what is the best at all levels."
1453 R, on 16 August 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:
Prior to discussing that line of argument, I'm going to ask you a question, Victor. Are you, by chance, a TCG gamer? I am, or was rather. No card shops up here for me to go and play at anymore. Sadness. Anyways. It would no doubt surprise you, Victor, that in the area of TCG gaming I'm on the other end of this equation. In a game which challenges my mind, rather than my fingers and reflexes as MWO does, I am quite competitive indeed and have won my share of tournaments just fine. The difference, methinks, is in what happened when I wasn't actively playing a round and advancing in the tournament.
The closest I ever got to TCG was playing a few rounds of Magic 2012 on steam with some friends. I've played plenty of war games, however.
1453 R, on 16 August 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:
Between rounds, or after the tournament, or in General Hang-Out before the tournament, I'd be there laughing and joking around with my buddies, of course – but I'd also be sitting down across from the new players and going “Hey! How ya doing?”, and seeing what they needed help with. I can, will, and have sat down with a rookie player and gone over his deck with him card-by-card, pointed out where he could make some low-cost modifications to improve his odds, and even given him a few of those cards where and when I could. I also can, will, and have sat down and gone through my deck with somebody I'd just gotten through poleaxing, showed him why I could do what I did, how my deck worked and the guiding principles behind it.
I'm sure you did. There also exists many good guides to Magic: The Gathering online I am absolutely positive that tell you precisely which cards are good, which cards are bad, and how to compete in tournaments. I don't know enough about TCGs to give you details, but I have heard many times over there is a VERY, VERY strict meta to these games, and taking even a single "scrub" card will wreck your deck.
1453 R, on 16 August 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:
Nor was I the only one who did so. Back in the good old days of the early WoW TCG, my entire build group did the same – we'd hold semi-official Deck Shops to work on folks' stuff with them, we'd build entire spare decks for players who forgot theirs or weren't confident in their own to try out. It was the best way to play, to us. After all, if the new blood got better and started giving us proper runs for our money, then we had more fun with our games too, and more opportunity to give our ideas a real workout. Surly, unfriendly Prize Sharks were cause for the players to close ranks and bust out their best decks – we won, too; you didn't get cards from our venue unless you were either good peoples or really damn good – and any sort of open hostility or aggression was grounds for ejection from the event.
Imagine my surprise then, Victor, when I came into online gaming a couple-odd years ago and found out that open hostility and naked aggression were not only not frowned upon, but were the ******** norm.
But nobody is being openly hostile or aggressive here.
1453 R, on 16 August 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:
High-level players in games like Firefall or League of Legends didn't take pleasure in showing new folks the ropes and watching them smile when they finally got it, they took pleasure in brutalizing new players. In crushing their egos, destroying their confidence, and generally inflicting pain and misery as often and as strongly as they could. High-level players in these sorts of games seem to feel that anyone who didn't bleed to reach the top – who didn't suffer humiliation, degradation, and torment in spades while clawing their way up through the unforgiving hordes – didn't really earn their skill, or their rating, or their Elo, or their whatever-the-hell the latest mark of acceptance is. And predatory balancing is one of their favorite tools for doing just that. Example, of course, being Firefall, where players were constantly, constantly farking on about raising skill floors, raising more barriers for entry, making things harder, making things MOAR SKILL'D. Rather than “everything is good, you just have to know how to use it!”, which is where we all want to be, or “most everything is bad, no matter how you use it,” which is where we're currently at, these players desire “everything is frickin' terrible, until and unless you learn just the right way to use it.”
I don't play LoL but I've heard that they've gone out of their way to do a good job balancing Elite and Basic tier stuff, addressing characters that were imbalanced in both, and have a great reputation online for doing so.
1453 R, on 16 August 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:
This is the tendency I cannot stand, and the tendency the first Town Hall made me deeply afraid ran through the roots of the high-level Leagueian community. The basic structure of MechWarrior, with locational damage, unusual movement systems and strange weapons like NARC, is already hard enough for new players to adjust to. Mechanics like ghost heat are so opaque and unintuitive that they're actively harmful to new players – how the hell are they supposed to know that adding a third large laser to their Victor is going to double their lasers' heat generation, not just kick it up fifty percent?
Why does this game need to be even more complex, Victor? Why does it need to be even more impenetrable to newcomers, even more impossible to play unless one has spent what may as well be their entire life playing MechWarrior one way or another, as I have? I'm only still here because this is my game, and because my experience with the series gave me a strong knowledge base coming into MWO that let me skip most of the real fresh-fish floundering, and I'm still terrible.
Why do high-level players feel the need to make this game harder, even more unforgiving, and then claim that it's somehow for our own good because trickle-down?
.... and you're yelling at me, because...? You are aware I've been actively campaigning against Ghost Heat - in part because it's so newbie unfriendly?
Are you aware the whole townhall you keep fearing thinks Ghost Heat is awful, demands it's removal, and hates how unfriendly it is too?
Go check the Ask the Devs thread. I have a question up right now, specifically attacking Ghost Heat for being too complicated.
I've said it before but you're going after the wrong people, dude.
1453 R, on 16 August 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:
You don't seem to believe it needs to be, which makes you largely unique in my experience of League players so far, but can you honestly tell me that the rest of your compatriots don't want just exactly what I've laid out above? Can you honestly tell me that this disgusting 'Official Clans and Units' initiative of the Town Hall isn't just a way to funnel new players into a conveniently accessible metaphorical garbage bin for all of your guys to heap abuse on until they leave?
... uh yeah, I can, because that's not what it's there for at all. Take off the tinfoil hat man. PGI has failed to provide a decent tutorial
and pushes people into a handicapped map for their first 25 matches. If they're not going to improve that before launch - do you really think we're getting a tutorial in time for launch!? - then newbies need SOME kind of training experience other than outdated youtube videos.
Nobody is out to get you, Jesus Christ!
1453 R, on 16 August 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:
Can you tell me why open hostility and naked aggression is the expected norm from the folks who should be ******** mentors and teachers instead of bullies and tyrants, Victor? I'd really, really like to know, because I'm pretty sure it makes me want to punch some folks' teeth right out of their heads. Perhaps not yours, but I'm betting you wouldn't have to try very hard to come up with some teeth that fit the bill, would you?
... let go of your presumptions and actually look at what's being said man. You are so far off target not only about me, but about #savemwo and competitive players in general, you're not even in the right universe.
---
Given what you've said about me, the other competitive players, etc. I'm under the impression that you think we want balance this way, and have a direct line up to the devs that we called to get Ghost Heat happening.
When every single thing we've said has been demanding balance, and Ghost Heat is the
very thing that really broke the Camel's back and started the protests in the first place! Go read The Maths thread and look at all the trash the competitive community talks about it!
You are so intent on vilifying us and putting us into some box in your head, you're not listening to a thing we're saying. We're on the same side wanting more things to be fun, and a better new user experience.. and that goes for most everyone at the Town Hall meeting too.
Let go of the prejudice and look again.
Edited by Victor Morson, 16 August 2013 - 10:25 PM.