301 replies to this topic

[Master Q]

Royalewithcheese, on 30 July 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

Master Q, I'm not entirely sure where your association between CoD and pinpoint comes from. CoD uses a variety of mechanics (spread, bloom, recoil, scope drift, magnificently terribad netcode) that have the combined effect of minimizing the role of pinpoint aiming in actual gameplay. Games that I associate with pinpoint would be stuff like TF2 (for most weapons) and Tribes.

I think that if we all like lasers as a convergence fix, that makes a pretty good case for balancing stuff like PPC along similar lines. The hard part here would be avoiding direct conflict role-wise between the PPC and the LL.

The broken mechanics in Call-of-Duty clones have all come from mechanics that broke spread, too.

If I remember correctly it was one of the Battlefield games that had a mechanic where you could temporarily eliminate spread from any scoped weapon if you fired "just after" bringing the sights up; the developers had included a noob-mode that "re-aimed" your scope to be sure you were pointing at a target. Walk around, point mostly at a head, scope-snap headshot. Lather, rinse, repeat.

The problem in MWO is that the designers have listened to a bunch of brain-donors screaming "BUT FPS GAMEZ HAZ 2 HAV PURFEKT CONVERGENS OR ELS MY BUILD SUX N MY SKILZ DONT MATER" when the reality is the exact opposite: perfect convergence is the root cause of the horrible meta currently and will remain the root cause of the meta until it is fixed. Tinkering with heat scales will only push people to the next weapon as we saw PRECISELY with the "nerf" moving things from AC40 Jagers and pure-PPC boats to Gauss+PPC boating, the underlying problem is STILL the ability to take a 35-40 point alpha and make it all land on exactly the same panel with no spread.

[FatBabyThompkins]

Royalewithcheese, on 30 July 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

Master Q, I'm not entirely sure where your association between CoD and pinpoint comes from. CoD uses a variety of mechanics (spread, bloom, recoil, scope drift, magnificently terribad netcode) that have the combined effect of minimizing the role of pinpoint aiming in actual gameplay. Games that I associate with pinpoint would be stuff like TF2 (for most weapons) and Tribes.

I think that if we all like lasers as a convergence fix, that makes a pretty good case for balancing stuff like PPC along similar lines. The hard part here would be avoiding direct conflict role-wise between the PPC and the LL.

I believe lasers, for the most part, are in a very good position. Sweep the leg, Johnny! You might not do all of your damage, but at least you're doing some damage that adds up over time. On light mechs, it is the go to defense. Slow or stationary mechs take the full brunt of a laser attack (with the 6ML Jenner doing a lot of damage to unsuspecting mechs). Where all this breaks down is in the front loaded damage builds that can place 30+ damage to one location in a fraction of a second and at significant range or point blank.

I believe it comes down to a philosophical design choice. Does PGI want a twitch based shooter, or a mech brawler? Most of their recent decisions point towards twitch based shooter with a sprinkling of brawling.

[Lostdragon]

MustrumRidcully, on 30 July 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

The greatest nerf to the Gauss Rifle has always been the double heat sink.

30 heat neutral is great and all, but a hot 40+ will still kill you 33 % more quickly, as long as you don't overheat before the kill.

The only reasons you don't see triple Gauss Rifle mechs out there in the field beating those Quad PPC Stalker is because the only mech that can do it with its hard points is a 70 ton Hero Mech. Give us an Assault with 3 ballistic slots in 3 seperate, non-torso, non-leg, non-head positions. Heck, you probably only need to give us a Dual Gauss capable Assaults and you'd see more of them. The only Dual Gauss capable mechs are 65 and 70 tons, after all, even if that is a highly effectice build, it has to compete with 85+ ton mechs.

I have actually been running a Muromets with 2 Gauss and an ERPPC. It is slower than I like to run Cataphracts but it punches above its weight and can do quite well. Has no heat issues so the only thing to worry about is positioning and aiming.

[Master Q]

Roland, on 30 July 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

Generally, heat neutral builds are rarely an issue, and were never an issue in prior games.

What the best players tended to do was build crazy, over-the-top energy builds which exploited the broken heat mechanics.. For instance, originally in MW4, when your heat hit the top of the cap, it effectively disappeared into the ether.. So firing huge alpha strikes, then overriding and tapping your coolant flush made you able to run at the top of your heat scale 100% of the time. Even before I fully understood the heat scale in that game, I ran builds which really had no business existing (like 2 ERPPC's, 100 LRM's, in a mech Nicknamed "The Super Skyfox").

Even without the broken mechanics, the most advantageous builds are likely going to be ones which run very hot... because it's better to run really hot and dish out burst damage, as long as you can keep the enemy at range to prevent him from exploiting your poor heat efficiency.

But this is kind of how balance works... hot builds end up being effective, but there is a way to beat them. As opposed to what we see now, where they are effectively dominant at all ranges.

Actually the other problem is that right now there is no intermediate penalty.

In TT, heat getting too high slows the mech and throws off your aim, along with early shutdown potential (Pilot Skill Rolls to avoid).

In MW4, at least, high heat meant slower movement but that was about it.

In MW3 and MW2, you had a chance of engine overload if you pushed the shutdown override too hard, but no other penalties.

What MWO needs is intermediate penalties. Spike your heat above 50%? Congrats, your mech slowed its speed a bit to try to cool off. Your reticle went hazy or just winks out. SOMETHING to penalize "running hot, staying hot".

Lostdragon, on 30 July 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

I have actually been running a Muromets with 2 Gauss and an ERPPC. It is slower than I like to run Cataphracts but it punches above its weight and can do quite well. Has no heat issues so the only thing to worry about is positioning and aiming.

And what makes it effective? Think, think think... what makes it effective is that all 3 of your weapons alpha-strike to the same panel, every time.

Front-loaded, single-panel alpha damage thanks to the game's intended convergence mechanics being MIA, which breaks the whole game.

[Roland]

Quote

In TT, heat getting too high slows the mech and throws off your aim, along with early shutdown potential (Pilot Skill Rolls to avoid).


What MWO needs is intermediate penalties. Spike your heat above 50%? Congrats, your mech slowed its speed a bit to try to cool off. Your reticle went hazy or just winks out. SOMETHING to penalize "running hot, staying hot".

The thing to remember though, is that in TT your heat isn't calculated until the end of the round.

If I have 30 heat sinks, or 15 doubles, then I can fire 3 PPC's and generate ZERO heat. It's not like my heat spikes to 30 and then comes down.

This is a fundamental difference in how the TT game works, compared to a live game.

[FatBabyThompkins]

Master Q, on 30 July 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

In TT, heat getting too high slows the mech and throws off your aim, along with early shutdown potential (Pilot Skill Rolls to avoid).

I had made a post on some heat based reticule penalties to simulate penalties to shooting as in TT.

Stage 1: reticule jumps randomly every once in a while



Stage 2: Reticule fades out and jumps randomly.



Stage 3: Reticule fades, jumps and disappears



The overall idea was to distract the human behind the keyboard when they are running high heat. It is not an end-all-be-all solution, but something that could penalize those heat banking. As for skill, those with the ability to learn and overcome will adapt thereby increasing skill cap. Note: this is only a graphical reticule jump, not weapons will fire where the reticule jumps to. So they'll still fire forward (or where your reticule actually is), but your targeting computer is overheating and can't accurately represent that information to you.

[Lostdragon]

Master Q, on 30 July 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

And what makes it effective? Think, think think... what makes it effective is that all 3 of your weapons alpha-strike to the same panel, every time.

Front-loaded, single-panel alpha damage thanks to the game's intended convergence mechanics being MIA, which breaks the whole game.

Hey, I am with you 100%. I am all for some kind of convergence rework. I have long said that to retain the BT/MW feel there are three things that can change and two of them HAVE to change before there can be balance: heat, convergence and hard points. I have thought about this a lot and in my opinion the heat changes Mustrum outlines along with a convergence system are the best ways to fix the game.

Until it is fixed though I will play the meta (sometimes) and continue to build mechs that win.

[RF Greywolf]

I liked the way high heat worked in MW4 Mercs. Once you started to get higher on the heat scale, all of your HUD started to fade out and get jittery to represent circuits not working correctly due to the high heat. That would bring a bit of realism into it and be a detriment to those that run hot.

FatBabyThompkins, on 30 July 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

I had made a post on some heat based reticule penalties to simulate penalties to shooting as in TT.

The overall idea was to distract the human behind the keyboard when they are running high heat. It is not an end-all-be-all solution, but something that could penalize those heat banking. As for skill, those with the ability to learn and overcome will adapt thereby increasing skill cap. Note: this is only a graphical reticule jump, not weapons will fire where the reticule jumps to. So they'll still fire forward (or where your reticule actually is), but your targeting computer is overheating and can't accurately represent that information to you.

Yeah, that is a start. Electronic do NOT like heat, we all know this. The start to degrade in performance once they hit a certain temperature and using stuff like this would go a long way.

[Praehotec8]

I do rather like the idea of a lower heat cap with higher dissipation, but wonder how much it will really change things. For example, a mech like the awesome can run 3PPCs and fire without overheat. Snipers often have time to cool down again before the next shot, and faster cooldown possibly help. Sure, mechs wouldn't be running 4-6 PPCs, but you could still run 3 gauss (as mustrum says, better heat management made people abandon gauss boats, not HP changes).

Convergence is probably a better fix, as many have said, but that also creates problems. How many of us get peeved when we shoot and it fails to hit because of poor hit detection? Well, that's essentially what changing convergence will do. I would love to see someone come up with a change to pinpoint convergence that doesn't feel like it would be frustrating to play with in that sense.

[Royalewithcheese]

The thing to remember re BF/CoD is that TTK in those games is measured in milliseconds or, if sniping, the time it takes to pull the trigger. Spread and a time cost to eliminate spread is specifically designed to mitigate that. TTK is much less important in MWO.

If we're talking about MWO convergence, it's important to remember that lasers and DPS weapons pretty conclusively demonstrate that convergence is not the problem and the ability to aim is not the problem. The problem only arises in situations where you can instantly land large amounts of damage. If we limited the number of PPC/gauss/AC20 type weapons, this wouldn't be an issue.

[Tombstoner]

MWHawke, on 30 July 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

Why do you all even bother?

We cant help our selves. some of us have fun in the game, but see where it could be even better.

i personally made a friend over a game of BT in January 1985.
i played a phoenix-hawk and is why i bought the package
i also live with his sister so BT has a special place in my heart and the devs frustrate me to no end.


The game need to stop using instantaneous heat and move to accumulated heat. with the dissipation time scale extended to something harsh with movement penalties. we need more shots with lower damage this will spread things around and make pin point alphas less effective. Damage got a 250% boost and armor got 200% vs. TT.

Edited by Tombstoner, 30 July 2013 - 06:35 AM.

[FatBabyThompkins]

Praehotec8, on 30 July 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

Convergence is probably a better fix, as many have said, but that also creates problems. How many of us get peeved when we shoot and it fails to hit because of poor hit detection? Well, that's essentially what changing convergence will do. I would love to see someone come up with a change to pinpoint convergence that doesn't feel like it would be frustrating to play with in that sense.

As a primarily light mech pilot, my campaign has been fixing hit box detection and convergence at the same time. Fixing hit box detection without fixing convergence will obliterate the already low player base of light and the few mediums that still play. Fixing convergence without hit box fixes will make lights way more overpowered than they should be (hello WolfPackOnline).

With the exception of the pin-point alpha, their life expectancy when properly piloted is about right (with the Spider being an obvious exception). They do not last but a second or two in an all out brawl. Some can bring impressive firepower in an unexpected way (6ML Jenner), basically skirmishing. But rounding a corner and losing a leg, LT, RT or mostly CT in under a second (all of which is essentially being one shot) to a good twitch gamer is not fun. Especially with seismics and/or target decay enhancement where the surprise element is greatly reduced.

[Koniving]

To Tolkien on the Awesome firing 3 ER PPCs at once and "alpha all day."

Spoiler

Tolkien, on 30 July 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

Just to throw this idea in to the mix, the heat battery/heat cap is responsible for some of the high alpha problems, but also slightly justified (slightly...).

It's been pointed out before that mechs like the awesome (3PPC) on tabletop can fire an alpha strike without exploding or suffering heat penalties and that is apparently what the devs are trying to recreate. I can appreciate the goal, and while it creates high alpha problems that could be solved by switching to a 30 heat hard cap in this game, those problems will come right back with clan gauss rifles. You can get 3 of those on an assault mech and even with a heat cap of 3 it will be able to 45 point alpha all day.

In the current game meta you just fire everything until your heat gets high, then duck out for a few seconds

So in the latter sense I agree that lower cap, higher dissipation could be good.

I can appreciate where that's going. I can estimate that David noticed that too. But let's really take a look at that.

Actually said Awesome, namely the Awesome 9M, cannot alpha strike in TT. No mech can. What it does is space out 3 ER PPCs over the span of 10 seconds. A 9M firing 3 ER PPCs with 20 true DHS and 30 hard heat cap can fire all 3 ER PPCs in the span of 10 seconds. Stock build. In 10 seconds the Awesome 9m fires 3 ER PPCs, generates 45 heat and sinks 40, bringing it to 5 out of 30 capacity.

Though doing the math I'm gonna keep this very interesting.

Breakdown, one fired at a time.

Spoiler

• Every 1 second the Awesome cools 4 points of heat.
  
• At 0 seconds the Awesome fires the shot 15 heat and 50%.
  
• At 1 it is down to 11 heat.
  
• At 2 seconds, 7 heat.
  
• At 3 seconds it is at 3 heat.
  
• At 4 seconds the Awesome fires again for 15 heat totalling 18 heat (60%) but has also cooled another 4 this second for 14.
  
• At 5 seconds the Awesome is at 10 heat.
  
• At 6 seconds the Awesome is at 6 heat.
  
• At 7 seconds the Awesome fires the third ER PPC generating 15 heat to reach 21 but in the same second has sunken 4 more heat for 17 heat.
  
• At 8 seconds 13.
  
• At 9 seconds the Awesome is at 9 heat.
  
• At 10 seconds it is at 5 heat which is 16.67% heat capacity.

Boils down to 5 heat at the end of 10 seconds. No shutdown.

Breakdown, fired 2 then 1.

Spoiler

• Every 1 second the Awesome cools 4 points of heat.
  
• At 0 seconds the Awesome fires the shot 30 heat and 100%. Emergency shutdown.
  
• At 1 it is down to 26 heat.
  
• At 2 seconds, 22 heat, Awesome starts back up.
  
• At 3 seconds it is at 18 heat.
  
• At 4 seconds 14.
  
• At 5 seconds the Awesome is at 10 heat.
  
• At 6 seconds the Awesome is at 6 heat.
  
• At 7 seconds the Awesome fires the third ER PPC generating 15 heat to reach 21 but in the same second has sunken 4 more heat for 17 heat.
  
• At 8 seconds 13.
  
• At 9 seconds the Awesome is at 9 heat.
  
• At 10 seconds it is at 5 heat.

Shutdown briefly but within the turn it'll never register on TT. Comes down to 5 heat at the end.

Awesome 9M fires all 3 ER PPCs at the same time.

Spoiler

• Every 1 second the Awesome cools 4 points of heat.
  
• At 0 seconds the Awesome fires 3 ER PPCS for 15 heat each generating 45 heat and 150%.
  
• Capacity.
  
• Emergency shutdown.
  
• Too late.
  
• Core breach warning.
  
• "Eject, eject, eject!!!"
  
• Pilot ejects after clutching his chair screaming "EJECTING EJECTING EJECTING!!!!"
  
• Core breach.
  
• Mech is destroyed.
  
• Nothing is left to salvage (the megamek image is literally a crater).

Mech is destroyed. Pilot ejected. Emergency shutdown failed to contain engine reaction. Nuclear breach. Explosion occurs. The good news is the enemy gets nothing in salvage.

(This is fluff: If the engine succeeds in shutting down (by reaching that limit slower instead of so suddenly) the mech would still be alive. Say if it reached 45 heat via lasers or something more gradual the shutdown could occur sooner, but then again the pilot would have to deliberately override to get to that point. The computer would then expect the high load and have time to safely contain the situation, dealing strong damage but not destroying the mech and engine. But with ER PPCs there's no time, there's no anticipation. Mech is lost.)

But what if the same Awesome 9M had 20 Standard heatsinks? It's still possible to use 3 ER PPCS!

Spoiler

Breakdown, one fired at a time. 20 SHS

Spoiler

Every 1 second the Awesome cools 2 points of heat. At 0 seconds the Awesome fires the shot 15 heat and 50%. At 1 it is down to 13 heat. At 2 seconds, 11 heat. At 3 seconds it is at 9 heat. At 4 seconds the Awesome fires again for 15 heat totalling 24 heat (80%) but has also cooled another 2 this second for 22. At 5 seconds the Awesome is at 20 heat. At 6 seconds the Awesome is at 18 heat. At 7 seconds the Awesome is at 16 heat. At 8 seconds the Awesome is at 14 heat. At 9 seconds the Awesome is at 12 heat and fires again for 15 heat now at 27 heat. At 10 seconds it is at 25 heat.

Result: 25 heat out of 30.

Breakdown, fired 2 then 1. 20 SHS

Spoiler

Every 1 second the Awesome cools 2 points of heat. At 0 seconds the Awesome fires 2 ER PPCS for 15 heat each generating 30 heat and 100%. Shutdown. At 1 it is down to 28 heat. At 2 seconds, 26 heat. At 3 seconds it is at 24 heat. At 4 seconds 22 heat. At 5 seconds the Awesome is at 20 heat and has powered up again. At 6 seconds the Awesome is at 18 heat. At 7 seconds the Awesome is at 16 heat. At 8 seconds the Awesome is at 14 heat. At 9 seconds the Awesome is at 12 heat and fires again for 15 heat now at 27 heat. At 10 seconds it is at 25 heat.

Result: 25 heat out of 30.

Awesome 9M 20 SHS fires all 3 ER PPCs at the same time.

Spoiler

Every 1 second the Awesome cools 2 points of heat. At 0 seconds the Awesome fires 3 ER PPCS for 15 heat each generating 45 heat and 150%. Capacity. Emergency shutdown. Core breach. Pilot ejects. Mech is destroyed. Nothing is left to salvage (the megamek image is literally a crater).

Killed itself.

So, that's how it works!

3 ER PPC Awesome versus 6 ER PPC Stalker (gist of it).

Spoiler

In tabletop you can't actually self-destruct, my Awesome's streak ammo cooked off, causing me to go boom. But in mechwarrior you can and in battletech lore you can which is done as a way to prevent abuse and demonstrate the genuine fear that pilots have in mechs and why they don't fire full auto with their weapons, and thus, you can't alpha strike 3 ER PPCs. You can however fire as I described just fine which is effectively the same thing in a 10 second window.

Now, to be honest I very rapidly caused my Awesome 9M in tabletop versus Lordred's 6 ER PPC Stalker to self-destruct much sooner than said 6 ER PPC stalker, even though said stalker spent over 30 seconds (3 turns) completely overheated to the point that it fell down. It then spent over 20 seconds trying to get back up and failing miserably. Said Stalker had no armor and an XL 340 engine, it also had better heatsinks, generated 90 heat and sunk 26 per 10 seconds (leaving it with 64), allowing it to happen. In an MW translation he'd die instantly.

After firing once (in which he hit 3 different components and missed 3 shots; meaning he fired one at a time), the stalker never recovered from falling over the first time.

Said stalker's pilot eventually died, as the numerous failures to get back up and the extreme heat exhaustion the pilot suffered with many effects on his performance, eventually caused said stalker to stumble a final time. The pilot apparently impaled himself on some aspect of the cockpit during the stalker's collapse, killing the pilot within the stalker which had approximately 13% internal structure health remaining, two broken arms from numerous stumbling and a broken leg in the final fall.

-----------------------------------
Now, to everyone.

More tabletop musings! Atlas K versus Marauder and Mercury. (Just because it's so much fun! Ripe with juicy details on second by second awesomeness)

Spoiler

Though my Awesome 9M from earlier didn't fair so well, my Atlas K prevailed quite nicely as a long range mech much as I predicted from the loadout on MWO when I brought it stock into TT. LRMs missed a lot and the ER large lasers helped a bit, but the gauss really showed good potential as I crescented over a hill and laid waste to the Highlander and Crab in the distance. At one point I even charged forward (slowly) for 15 seconds and then dived into a prone position, where I discovered that mechs in TT don't crouch, they go prone by laying down and apparently I can only use one arm weapon at a time while prone meaning my other hand is holding me up. In this position I was able to use my Gauss rifle at half range and one ER large laser. Getting back up in the next turn, I found myself engaged by a Mercury 20 ton mech from behind and a Marauder in front. The mercury snuck up on me and wasn't detected until after I was already engaged by the Marauder. I then discovered the coolest thing. There was an ® next to both medium pulse lasers in my Atlas's ....back!

I fired the ER LLs and the Gauss forward. Hit an arm, hit a side torso, and hit a leg. I then fired the 2 MPL backwards. One missed, the other got a head. Note the Marauder is already standing in front of me and does not move. I do not move. The Mercury is approaching me from behind.8
Breakdown

Spoiler

• Atlas K cools at a rate of 2 per second.
  
• At 0 seconds I fired 2 ER LLs at the same time hitting the Marauder left arm and left torso as the Marauder reacts to keep my shot away from its weakened head, generating 12 heat each for 24 heat. 80% capacity reached. "Heat level warning."
  
• At the same time the Marauder has fired an AC/2 and missed.
  
• At 1 second I am at 22.
  
• The Marauder fires a PPC and hits me left torso at less than 90 meters with the Field Inhibitor (allows it to deal damage at close range and Capacitor (deal extra damage) turned off for 15 damage; the PPC fails the roll as well and explodes in the process dealing 10 damage to the Marauder that fired it. That arm is lost.
  
• 2 seconds I am at 20 heat.
  
• I fire the Gauss Rifle at 3 seconds and hit the Marauder's leg gaining 1 heat for 21 but sunk 2, I'm now at 19. The shot was at exactly 60 meters, the Marauder's leg takes 15 damage.
  
• 4 seconds, 17 heat.
  
• 5 seconds 15 heat and the Mercury has appeared.
  
• 6 seconds the Mercury fires 2 ML at the same time generating 6 heat. I won't go into how it sinks it. I'm now at 13 heat.
  
• 7 seconds I fire 1 MPL backwards and miss. 13 + 4 is 17 - 2 sunken at the same time is 15.
  
• 8 seconds I fire a second MPL backwards and score a hit on the Mercury's head. 15 + 4 heat is 19 - 2 is 17 heat.
  
• The blinding light and damage caused to the cockpit rips the armor off. The cockpit is exposed at the end of the beam. Though the pilot himself is untouched, the light combined with the heat has caused the pilot to faint. The mech, no longer balanced by the mental signals of the pilot's neuro-helmet and thus unguided, becomes confused and collapses. The impact causes a cranial injury to the pilot. He spents the next 70 seconds unconscious.
  
• 9 seconds I cool to 15 heat and stare down the Marauder.
  
• The Marauder pilot quakes in his seat at the sight of an Angry Atlas that can bullseye an enemy 20 ton mech firing BACKWARDS!
  
• 10 seconds I cool to 13 heat and stare down the Marauder. Glowy Atlas eyes of doom.

The OPs suggestion (which has been a widespread request, demand, and foot-grovelling plea for some time by much of the community that pays in to this game) sounds awesome, but why do we need a 30 capacity? What's wrong with the current system?

Spoiler

For that I'll have you choose your explanation.

Short explanation.

Spoiler

This is MWO's heat system. Please watch. If it does not time skip, go to 9 minutes and 43 seconds in and watch from there.

Detailed explanation.

Spoiler

Currently in MWO we have a rising capacity. 30 base + your heatsink value = your capacity. We're already above tabletop even with 10 SHS.
With 22 DHS we have (30 base) + (10*2.0 DHS) + 12 (1.4 DHS) = 67.8 heat efficiency + elite unlock level for Basic Unlock Heat Containment which is + 20% (13.56) and now we have 81.36 capacity. Almost 3 times tabletop, allowing us to fire almost 3 times more alpha strikes.

High alpha meta anyone? There's no reason to fire or use wimpy weapons, in fact you are punished for them with higher than canon heat. Meanwhile PGI keeps lowering heat on the high damage weapons!

But wait, it gets worse!

10 Engine DHS only in MWO gives us 20 for heatsinks + 30 base = 50.
That's a 250 engine.
What if we had a 175 engine and put in DHS? Having 7 Engine DHS (7*2=14) + 3 Chassis DHS (3*1.4 = 4.2) + 30 base = 48.8.

That's hardly fair! Anything that can't mount a 250 engine minimum is screwed out of capacity. This means light mechs and medium mechs carrying heavy weapons are punished by not having even 'minimum' capacity for a 250 engine user. Not only are you slow, you're punished for being slow! Which means everyone must run faster engines which means more hit detection issues.

Flea, Locust, Commando, Blackjacks, all get screwed out of capacity. MWO's current system punishes them for being what they are. In general all lights and mediums are instantly made inferior compared to the incredible capacities possible with Victors which can top out at nearly 90 capacity before unlocks (but can't carry much in weapons at that point).

How would the proposed 30 capacity affect you?

Spoiler

In general you would reach shutdown very frequently for alpha strikes. Thus you would stop using them except in emergencies as is canon. Chain-firing your weapons, however, you would be rewarded by longer running times even though you'd still shutdown considerably sooner than MWO's current setup. This requires trigger control, which will in turn make battles last longer.

Longer battles result in more time to strategize and plan. Coordinate with your team. This builds up PGI's ideal, which is not possible due to PGI's misinterpretation in how TT's heat system translates to real time.

You will find yourself withdrawing from a fight to circle around an obstacle and intentionally power down while a teammate protects you. The best teams will be those that treat the battle like a coach would a game -- by cycling Battlemechs. These 6 battlemechs are running out of stamina (too hot), they withdraw and 6 more cycle in to take the place, and when they get hot they switch back.

Even with MWO's current rising capacity minimum of 40, I'm having myself and my lance cycle back and forth. When I overheat I pull back and shutdown with the two of them guarding me. LRM boats and snipers of any sort will have identical issues. This is a good thing, as it encourages role warfare and gives Medium mechs a true purpose -- protecting larger mechs from smaller ones.

The Hunchback and Centurion are both mechs with specific roles. The Hunchback is an urban warfare unit, but without the urban environment it is also used to escort Atlases and other heavier mechs. The 4J for example would escort a Catapult. The 4H or 4G would escort an Atlas. In the case of the Centurion, it actually is made specifically to escort an LRM Trebuchet, and the Trebuchet's insane height is to allow it to crest over tall walls to lob LRMs at enemies while its speed allows it to escape while the Centurion kills its attacker.

The 30 capacity, 0.2 per second (2 per 10) cooling of DHS and 0.1 per second (1 per 10) cooling of SHS would actually reward you for using smaller, weaker weapons that generate less heat. Trading medium lasers for smalls would reward you with endurance.

In any Mechwarrior game you trade speed for weapons and heatsinks, weapons for heatsinks and engine, or heatsinks for weapons and speed. Everything is a trade off.

Here, after the change you could have high firepower but low speed. Or high firepower but be easier to kill (XL engine). Thing is for high firepower you trade off a lot of impact for having little to no endurance. You can't spam shots. Shoot 3 ER PPCs in the current 11 heat form and shut down immediately. Space 3 ER PPCs out over 10 seconds and you might be okay. But, you are screwed without team support.

You can trade high damage for low damage and there, you get more endurance. You can keep firing and running around so long as you don't spam your fire buttons. Lights and mediums could never achieve the same capacity as assaults and heavies in MWO's current system. After the change, Lights and Mediums would be on equal terms with regards to maximum safe heat before shutdown (29). Since lights and mediums will become pushovers with knockdowns, this is Extremely Important.

Being heat neutral is actually a goal of light pilots, who would use weak weapons but rarely have the chance to overheat as being knocked over would be instant death; standing still would be instant death, lights can't afford these things!

As a light you can't afford to shut down, as you'll never get back up. Also AC/20s, ER PPCs, and Gauss Rifles are supposed to be able to knock a light mech down upon enough impact. Making it even more important to have this 30 capacity system in before lights get royally screwed over.

With this capacity, you would be punished for high heat, high power builds; not in a bad way like the penalty system but in a way that makes sense. It would be like the original 6 PPC Awesome 8Q in closed beta, just after XL engines but when standard heatsinks was cheaper to run and before the 20% capacity increase and other crazy pilot efficiencies. The Awesome would fire 6 PPCs and immediately shutdown with just enough capacity to avoid exploding. It then had to wait until 0 to fire again. In this though, your limit would be 3 regular PPCs at once at proper heat levels. With MWO's heat for PPCs it'd be 4 and shutdown.

The highest pinpoint damage you can do without worry of shutdown with a 30 hard capacity cap with MWO's heat values is 2 ER PPC + 2 Gauss Rifles = 50 damage and 24 heat (thanks to PGI's super low heat levels on weapons further causing disparity to our already frayed balance). But, 3 ER PPCs in MWO's heat levels would still shut you down for a second.

That 50 with 16 DHS gives you (24 - 3.2 per second = 6 seconds until 4.8 heat minimum safe re-fire time) 6 seconds until that mech can fire again.

With penalties that's actually cut down to 45. 45 is a lot easier to manage than what we have now, and they would fire slower than they do now. Meta builds of 2 Gauss rifles and 1 ER PPC will surface, but those are fragile.

Obviously MWO would require heat-tweaks. Medium laser heat would definitely need to be lowered (6 ML currently generates 24 heat, 7 generates 28, 8 = shutdown) but I think PGI was aiming for this with the penalty system, so I don't imagine that will change. The heat for the PPCs and ER PPCs need to rise by more than 1 point. But for now PGI already made the penalty system, so that could be used.

(Btw under the penalty system 3 ER PPCs would instantly kill yourself with the 30 capacity, lol! That 3 regular PPC thing is gonna HURT!)

Role warfare and tactical gaming would increase significantly. Mechs would live longer without increase armor even further. The PPC meta would come to a crippling halt without the penalty system. Twin AC/20 builds would find heat to be troublesome without the penalty system. AC/10s might become a new meta ( ) and well, things would generally be a little easier on everyone. Lights and mediums would benefit the most, while heavies and assaults would find a dire need to have mediums protecting them.

If PGI keeps the Heat Containment unlock, instead of extreme changes as demonstrated in "What's wrong with the current system," any mech's capacity would be upgraded by 6 (30+ 20% for elite 2x basic Heat Containment unlock = 36). Which would allow you to fire 3 MWO's ER PPCs without shutting down except on hot planets. On mild temperatures you'd have to do so while standing still. In frozen city you can do so while walking.

MWO's "Cool Run" unlock would have to go, however, so as to not create a new problem.

The new metas would shift toward small lasers, SPL, ML, MPL, LL (it'd be safe to use 4 again provided you remove the penalty on them), and ACs. Lots of ACs. But ACs and Gauss Rifles in 12 vs 12 are NEVER going to have enough ammo.

That brings me to point number 2... Minor Autocannon tweaks and eventual introduction of Variants.

Spoiler

PGI will need to address the lore-breaking UAC/5. No, I don't mean the perma-jam. I mean the fact that in a burst-fire version of the UAC/5 is a 2 shot minimum weapon, with a secondary breach ready to feed another 2 shots. That's 2.5 damage + 2.5 damage per trigger pull, and a 'double tap' of another 2 shots of 2.5. That'd fix the pinpoint there and keep it in lore (UACs are always smaller caliber than the original guns. The only way a UAC/5 would have single shots is if it's a UAC/10 with only one barrel, and it'd have an AC/5 sized barrel -- speaking of which UAC/10s are depicted with 1 to 4 barrels).

In their current form a single UAC/5 can outperform two AC/20s. Pack in 2 and let 'em rip.

Autocannons can be further balanced with this concept, already being looked into supposedly many months back but this is a low priority compared to the heat capacity change. The idea is to work in conjunction with recoil, which would help keep players reigned in on their fire times but allow them to spam in emergencies.

(Note: Responses to the video have been lower single shot AC/20 DPS to 4, but keep multi-shot AC/20 DPS at 5 rather than remove the 203mm current AC/20 variant.)

This is MWO with a 40 unit capacity. (30 base + 10 SHS.) A 30 unit capacity would bring the percentages down faster even with SHS, but each shot would also bring it up on the percentage by 25% more than any weapon demonstrates in this video. Notice the heat management I have to do. Choosing between firing 2 lasers at once or chainfiring. Pausing to cool a little before I fire my AC/20. That's the goal here; a true mechwarrior experience balanced by heat management.

How would my course of thinking and level of fun change with the new lower capacity (severely restricting alpha strikes) and faster heat dissipation (cooling)?

Spoiler

I'm glad you asked! I'll use this post from the ATD 43 answers community responses:

Koniving, on 28 July 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Now, to David and Paul of PGI I will say this:

These are the mentalities of a rising threshold with slower heat dissipation, versus a fixed threshold with faster heat dissipation.
Please note BOTH mentalities are set before and without the heat penalty system. Some do mention the penalty system.

The Mentality of MWO's rising threshold, slower heat dissipation (0.14 per DHS) :
Basic Premise of this system: Average heat capacity of 40 to 70, but this depends on how many heatsinks you have. The smaller your mech the more you're screwed with this setup. Can alpha strike a lot, wait a pretty long time to cool back down to zero though.
Meta focus: Instant damage, 1 to 2 shot kills.

Spoiler

• So the DHS is advantageous, huh? Let's see... the first 10 in a 250 engine gives me 2.0 cooling, 2.0 capacity increase, with each one after giving me 1.4 and 1.4? Wow, that's a lot of math.. What is my capacity going to be? How much can I alpha strike? Ow, my head hurts...
  
• So wait, if I carry 30 or more SHS I'll have faster cooling than DHS, but I'll never have the same heat capacity? How does that make sense? Oh god, look at all the charts I have to study!
  
• This is complicated... is this game for me?
  
• I must carry the biggest guns I possibly can to have a chance.
  
• I can fire a lot of powerful weapons at the same time.
  
• We must double the double armor in order for anything smaller than 65 tons to have a chance in combat.
  
• All Jenners, Spiders, etc. must carry at least 2 PPCs to be remotely useful.
  
• The only useful weapon for the Raven 4x is an AC/20.
  
• I'm in an assault mech because it is the only thing that can carry enough heatsinks to have a decent heat capacity/limit/threshold/scale.
  
• I need to make my shots count, I can fire my 6 PPCs twice and shutdown. That's 120 damage I can lay down the line in 8 seconds. If I wait 2 seconds I can safely fire it again for a total of 180 damage.
  
• The only way to fight is long range.
  
• I don't need friends to play.
  
• I don't need to work together with anyone. I just need 6 PPCs.
  
• If something gets close to me, who cares? That just means it will die faster.
  
• The only way LRMs will be useful is if I can fire 90 missiles in a single volley. Anything less is a waste of a player.
  
• The only way SRMs will be useful is if I have 3 to 6 SRM-6s.
  
• There is no reason to use an SRM-2. I mean seriously, lower heat? Pfft! I can do 12 PPCs back to back when the recycle time was 2 or 3 seconds per volley!
  
• Only a corpse runs anything less than a 40 damage alpha strike.
  
• Anything less than 10 damage per shot must be boated in excessive amounts to remotely have a chance.
  
• With 2 AC/2s and 2 AC/5s, I can pump out over 200 damage before I have to worry about heat.
  
• The only reason to run a light is speed. They die in a single shot.
  
• There is no reason to run a medium.
  
• Why would I ever need to carry fewer guns than I can fit in?
  
• I can fire lots of lasers all I want to. But they are worthless because I have no reason to focus my shots on specific body parts or to aim, since I can fire a lot all over the place due to a high heat limit!
  
• I must carry a 250 engine or I will get completely screwed out of heat capacity.
  
• Locusts and other 20 ton mechs that can't mount a 250 engine are SCREWED out of heat capacity, since they can't enjoy the full 2.0 capacity increase of 10 DHS mounted in 250 engine.
  
• A commando must have a 200 engine to stand a chance.
  
• I am punished for carrying smaller, weaker weapons.
  
• I am rewarded for carrying the biggest, most powerful weapons I can carry.
  
• If I carry too many PPCs I only run the risk of overheating once every 12 seconds.
  
• With the new heat penalty system, I am punished for carrying most weapons, and punished for using useless weapons like the SRM-2.
  
• I can never overheat with 4 small lasers. Even though dissipation is slow, my threshold is so high I will never, ever reach it. I can fire them forever at the same time.
  
• I am punished for a low DPS, low HPS build, because everyone else can do between 35 and 60 damage per shot and I can never get in range to fight.
  
• The deciding factor of a brawl is who has the biggest alpha strike.
  
• A medium mech with small lasers and MGs has no chance against an assault.
  
• Medium mechs hunting in packs of 2 to 4 have a modest chance if they are constantly mobile and carry high alpha weaponry, but will die rapidly to instant kill alpha strikes.
  
• Fighting in packs while a good idea, is not necessary. A single stalker with 2 ER PPCs and 5 streaks can level the entire playing field solo, and will never overheat.
  
• Heat management consists of "I alpha strike a lot as it's super effective and isn't too hard on heat. But maybe I do it a little too often and I am too hot? Alpha strike less often. Or maybe get more damage per alpha strike, have you considered more PPCs?
  
• "I'm an assault, that medium mech following me around is a nuisance. Get an assault! Learn how to play noob. You're in something worthless! You want to escort me? Bring another assault."
  
• After knockdowns return: "Crap, I got knocked down. That's it, I'm -- wow one shot? Seriously? Screw this I quit! Maybe it'll be better next patch."
  
• PGI, now: "We find that balancing through heat is impossible. We must make an insanely complicated case by case basis to balance the game and we'll call it the heat penalty system. None of it will be consistent with anything else nor will it make any sense, but that's okay. It is something we have to do because as our system goes at this moment, heat is not an issue."
  
• PGI not long from now: "We should double the double armor, and double the double internal structure too." Some months later. "...Maybe we should try a heat penalty system that punishes exploits of our current heat penalty system?" "Or we could double the doubled double armor."

The mentality of a fixed, very low threshold but slightly higher dissipation (0.2 per DHS) :
Basic premise: Alpha strike = risk. Downside is 6 ML brings me instantly to 24 out of 30 heat which is 80% capacity, no matter what mech I'm in or how many or even what kind of heatsinks I have. I overheat and shutdown frequently even while chainfiring my weapons unless I really space my shots out. On the plus side, I cool much faster so if I ease off the trigger now and then I don't have to wait so long to get back to zero.
Meta focus: Damage per second, damage over time. Kills within 50 to 100 shots using heat efficient, weaker weapons and coordinated attacks between multiple players.

Spoiler

• No matter how many heatsinks I have, the maximum heat I can generate at once without shutting down is 29? Because if I hit 30 I shut down, right? Wow, I never played BT, TT, or MW before but that's easy to understand!
  
• So the only difference between DHS and SHS is that DHS cools me twice as fast for less the same weight but takes up more slots? That's easy enough to understand.
  
• Wait, if I wanted to save I could carry 20 SHS and have the same benefits of 10 DHS? Awesome! That will help me save up for my second mech, I'll call him Johnny #5!
  
• That means if I needed more slots for the weapons I want, I could just use single heatsinks instead? I have weight to spare, let's try that!
  
• So with SHS, if I stand in water and have SHS in my feet, they turn into DHS so long as I'm in the water? That's a cool mechanic! I like it!
  
• The maximum possible alpha strike I can do without shutting down is 2 Gauss + 1 ER PPC for 55. 2 Gauss + 2 ER PPC is too risky. 1 Gauss + 2 ER PPC is too risky.
  
• Running 2 gauss + 1 ER PPC, I run the risk of being extremely fragile and I must carry an XL engine. I will be easy to take out if someone gets close to me. I need friends to escort me. (Teamwork!)
  
• With current heat values of ER PPCs (11), 3 of them is an instant shutdown. That's 30 damage and accomplishes the same goal of the penalty system, without the penalty system.
  
• The 2 ER PPC and 2 PPC exploit of the penalty system would also lead to an instant shutdown and possibly moderate to severe self-inflicted heat damage.
  
• The maximum number of LRMs I can fire at the same time are 5 LRM-20s. But, that is impossible to carry. Even with 2 LRM-15s I will run the risk of shutting down eventually as I will reach my threshold faster even with 2 times cooling than I would with MWO's current system.
  
• Lasers are a good idea. But I have to use them sparingly since their heat is high. If I space out my shots and really make them count, I will improve both my gameplay and my heat management.
  
• If I carry fewer weapons than I can fit, I'll be more heat efficient.
  
• It is very risky to fire 4 large lasers at the same time. If I do I'll have to wait several seconds before I can safely fire them again. I better chainfire them.
  
• If I fire 6 medium lasers at the same time I will be at 24 out of 30 heat. If I fire 7 medium lasers I will be at 28 out of 30 heat. This is risky, maybe it would be better to chainfire them.
  
• Balancing might actually lower the heat of medium lasers back to canonical values.
  
• With 2 AC/2s and 2 AC/5s I can fire non-stop for up to 7-ish seconds and be in the high 96 to 98% heat range at a world of 0 degrees celsius in MWO versus this in a higher heat environment.
  
• If I run a high risk build such as twin ER PPCs, I should fire them one at a time. Otherwise I will need an escort because it is too hot to fire them twice in 8 seconds. I might need an escort anyway. (Teamwork!)
  
• Carrying 2 LRM-15s and several medium pulse lasers for defense isn't enough. Maybe I should carry 2 SRM-4s as well. Can't carry 6s it's too hot.
  
• As a medium mech I may not have the speed of a light or the same damage output as a heavy or an assault, but I have the same heat capacity as a light, heavy, and an assault. I have a fair chance in a fight!
  
• As a medium mech I would have more endurance than a light, since a light can't have as much heat dissipation as me. I may not have the same cooling rate as a heavy or an assault but I have fewer weapons, so I can perform equally or even outperform them in endurance. (So I'm better cooling than a light since I can dedicate more weight to increase my heat dissipation, and more heat efficient than an heavy due to less weight dedicated to weapons. My only threat is an assault and two of us can easily take one assault down or if I pace my shots better than the assault does, I'll easily take it out).
  
• If I run a smaller engine, I can carry more heatsinks for faster cooling because I can't carry my weapons, my armor, and a big engine without sacrificing heatsinks.
  
• Carrying a smaller engine does not screw me out of heat capacity (fewer HSR issues, slower mechs, slower meta, more big stompy robot action!)
  
• I am rewarded with higher endurance for carrying smaller, weaker weapons.
  
• I am rewarded for carrying far weaker weapons than everyone else and maintaining a low DPS, low HPS with higher endurance. Since they can't fire their 20 to 55 damage builds too often, I can get in close and brawl.
  
• I will eventually overheat with 4 small lasers. Even though my dissipation is fast, my threshold is so low that I will reach it and overheat at some point.
  
• I carry larger, more powerful weapons at the risk of overheating very frequently. Possibly once every 4 to 6 seconds.
  
• The deciding factor of a brawl is who has the most endurance and better heat management -- this usually favors the weaker weapons.
  
• 20 ton mechs have an equal chance in terms of heat capacity to everyone else. They traded armor and firepower for a smaller size and superior speed. Though they have to worry about being easily knocked down, they should never have to worry about heat unless they hold down the trigger.
  
• A Jenner, Commando, or Spider with an ER PPC is a fool. 4 to 5 back to back shots on Alpine and overheat, even with superior cooldown. This versus never being able to reach the overheat due to having 20 more capacity just for having 10 DHS in the engine. (50 with MWO's system and 10 DHS, versus 30 with the proposed and correct system from the original rules and any number of heatsinks, even 22 DHS, will never change that 30 limit).
  
• A medium mech with small lasers and MGs has a very strong chance against an assault.
  
• Fighting in packs of 2 or more is greatly encouraged as when one overheats, the other can keep firing.
  
• A single stalker with 2 ER PPCs and 5 streaks has no chance by itself, it needs an escort or to pace itself.
  
• Enemies with high alpha weaponry might do severe damage, but then will be shut down too long to fight back.
  
• Decoy tactics, teamwork, coordination become encouraged without even so much as a cbill reward!
  
• Heat management consists of "Alpha strike only as a last resort as chances are I'll kill myself if I do it! Too hot? Hold your fire even though you are already chain-firing. Maybe you should carry fewer weapons. Or, have you considered using small lasers or machine guns instead as a way of continuing to fight when you are too hot?"
  
• As an assault mech with all my weapons, even with my reliance on ballistics if I fire them too often I will overheat. A lot. I need an escort of a smaller mech that has better endurance than myself. In exchange I can tank damage for that smaller mech. "Hey medium dude, could you watch my back? Keep me safe when I overheat and I'll keep you safe from weapons fire. Thanks man you're the greatest!" (Role warfare!)
  
• After knockdowns return: "Oh crap, I tripped! C'mon, c'mon, c'mon! He's shooting me! Get up! Get up! YES! In your face! Now to get back to my team before I get knocked over again."
  
• Player shifting from MWO's current system to this one. "OMFG I overheat like every 4 seconds! I can't do anything without overheating. Wait, maybe if I didn't fire it all at once..."
  
• PGI after a bit of stat reading with the changes: "You know, these mechs are surviving an awful long time. The players say this feels right, but matches are lasting longer than expected, many fights are not ending with one side being completely decimated but with time running out. Maybe we should increase the timer? Perhaps we might lower the armor values a bit. Nah, the players seem happy."

Now genuinely which one provides that battlemech versus battlemech feel?

The first system, encouraging "throw everything into single shots, 1 to 2 shot kills! Enemy, Foxtrot 7, Target Alpha, Atlas. Bam, dead. Enemy, Charlie 3, it's a -- that a Highlander or a Vic--. Bam, dead. Someone's on our base. Bam, dead." "Oh it's another Atlas." Bam, dead. Landslide victory! Start of next match: "I'd like to have us send 3 guys to Epsilon, 2 go by the river route and..." Bam, dead. "I can't believe I tried to make a heat efficient bu--" Bam, dead. "Y u no use PPCs noob?"

Or the second system, encouraging "Oh man oh man I keep riding the threshold, I can't afford to shut down. Chainfire! Quick, dude draw his attention I need a few seconds to cool down or he's gonna kill me! Alright, I'm ready again, let's do this! You, flank left and hit him when he turns his back, you two come with me we're gonna take this guy down! Spread out so he can't focus us. That's it you guys got it. His left leg's weak, let's hammer in on it!" "Watch it man you've got 3 coming in from Charlie 9." "Oh crap, 3 Centurions! I lost some heatsinks earlier and I'm out of ammo, we need help here!" "That's alright, one Hunchback 4G is on the way to save your backside, twin AC/2 AC/5 2ML Jagermech. LRM support's also lining up to pepper 'em down to size." "Good game everyone." "That was fun, those Centurions had me scared for a minute."

Personally, with significantly lower capacity but slightly faster cooling we have almost no alpha strikes (except lots of small lasers and small pulse lasers, twin Gauss + ER PPC too) which means we will have more time to communicate within the team, more time to plan movements, more time to coordinate attacks, etc. No "go l--never mind I got shot across the map. I'm dead."

Thank you all for your time.

Edit: Added short and detailed explanations as to what's wrong with the current MWO capacity system.

Edited by Koniving, 30 July 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[Sasha Volkova]

Namais, on 30 July 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

The ammo is destructable - if the slot that the ammo is in gets critted you no longer have that ammo. The PPC has no such drawback. It's a fairly clear point.

Neat save but ¨volatile¨ means : tending or threatening to break out into open violence; explosive.
And seeing as Gauss ammo itself is just a crit slot that has no dangerous drawbacks no matter how much it is hit, you still were wrong in your first statement claiming it to be volatile.
Had you though said that the Gauss rifle was dangerous then I would have had nothing to add but seeing as you stated the ammo was volatile I felt it needed to point out that such was not the case.
Mostly to benefit newer players who would be more inclined to presume that Gauss ammo based on your post was a dangerious thing if not fielded with a C.A.S.E. - this was again something I would not risk and as such the reasoning behind my post.

Edited by 0okami, 30 July 2013 - 06:51 AM.

[Master Q]

Praehotec8, on 30 July 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

I do rather like the idea of a lower heat cap with higher dissipation, but wonder how much it will really change things. For example, a mech like the awesome can run 3PPCs and fire without overheat. Snipers often have time to cool down again before the next shot, and faster cooldown possibly help. Sure, mechs wouldn't be running 4-6 PPCs, but you could still run 3 gauss (as mustrum says, better heat management made people abandon gauss boats, not HP changes).

3 Gauss = 45 tons for weapons alone.

Gauss Ammo = 10 shots per ton. So, 3 tons for 10 alphas, 6 tons for 20 alphas, 9 tons for 30 alphas.

That's well over half the weight of a 100 ton mech, and you're running out of crits fast (XL engine <300 or Standard engine even smaller) as well as being a walking turret/target.

Convergence needs to be fixed for it anyways, but a 3-Gauss boat is inherently a question mark.

[I am]

I made this build, kinda stumbled onto it, and despite it's numerical inferiority, it's a killer.

2 LL + 2 AC2 on a Atlas DDC. Has 21-23 DHS, 600-900 rounds, and pretty much never overheats.

The alpha is terrible, but I broke 600 dmg with it more yesterday than I had been all last week with either ac20/guass + 2 ERPPCs.

Heat neutral is a lot of fun, it sounds cool, is fun to pilot, and feels like it has unlimited ammo. I do have to go face to face, so I feel like I am working for my points too. Not like my cheese LRM builds. Try it out. Don't just walk at them firing though.

Edited by I am, 30 July 2013 - 07:12 AM.

[Sasha Volkova]

Namais, on 30 July 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Are you really going to stand behind a tenth of the OED definition there? Mathematically volatile is not chemically volatile.

However - pick whichever one you like. If the ammo is destroyed you no longer own it making your ammo pool volatile. Once you've decided which definition best suits you whilst still making precisely the same point, take it, and your tediously obvious e-peen somewhere else.

Oh darling, can you atleast try to be civil here?
You are comming at me like a wild dog in heat.

Fact is you made a mistake in your first post, now what you need to do is accept that fact and deal with it and then move on.
Continuing to ignore the fact by trying to sway the conversation into another direction is simply tedious and a waste of time.

Edited by 0okami, 30 July 2013 - 07:29 AM.

[Khobai]

Heat neutral mechs are bad in MWO because of convergence and pinpoint alphas.

Heat neutral mechs are not bad in TT because of random hit locations.

Simple as that really.

[zorak ramone]

Ralgas, on 30 July 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

ok 35 point, 2 ppc and a gauss..... when they kill the current meta what did you think the new one was going to be? 0.o

give em convergence, it'll become lrms or run in and high alpha close enough the cof/spread doesn't matter, leave it pinpoint end up with what we have now, manage ppc's out you get twin gauss again. What's you're magic solution btw?

My point is that heat neutrality isn't a problem. If heat neutrality was a problem, then GR builds would be dominating right now. They aren't: instead we have 2xPPC/GR builds, and yes, even 4xPPC (or 2xERPPC/2xPPC) builds are still functional, and none of these build are even close to heat neutrality.

As for my "magic solution," I would attack the current meta in four different ways:
-Dump heat scaling
-Convergence
-Stat tweaking
-Missile recoding

First off, I would dump the current heat scaling method for boating control. Its unintuitive, it hurts new players, and it doesn't solve the underlying problems of MWO.

Secondly, the issue with the current sniper meta is, and has always been, the lack of restrictions on how much damage you can plant on a single panel with a single trigger pull. I would go for a method that adds cone of fire to weapons over a certain threshold, over a certain time. E.g. if you fire 2xPPC, they converge perfectly. If you fire 4xPPC, two of them converge perfectly, the third one diverges to a degree, and the fourth divergest to a greater degree. If you fire 2xPPC, and then another 2xPPC after 0.5s, both pairs converge perfectly. If you fire the second pair in <0.5s, they diverge, the degree determined by how early you fire them after the first pair. Homeless Bill has written up a much more fully realized system. Everyone should read it.

Third, whether you fix convergence or not, you need to tweak the numbers for several weapons. The main problem is that mid to short range weapons are currently underpowered relative to long range weapons (PPC/ERPPC, GRs, UACs/AC5s). A few minor stat tweaks would solve alot of these problems:
-Drop AC20 and AC10 heat dramatically (e.g. to 3 and 1.5, respectively)
-Increase LBX10 damage to ~12-14 and tighten spread
-Increase AC20/10 damage to ~24/12 if convergence limitation system is added
-Drop ML/SL heat to 3/1
-Complete overhaul of PL stats (too much for a short list)

Fouth, locking missiles need to be recoded in one way or another. The quickest fix, for LRMs is to remove splash damage, and change tracking behavior to match SSRMs (i.e. each missile targets a different section). The CT-bias of LRMs is entirely due to splash damage (splash damage means that almost every missile hits CT, regardless of where it actually impacts). Changing tracking behavior would also keep walls of LRMs from insta-coring mechs. I would also drop splash damage on SSRMs for the same reason. Next, LRM and SSRM damage can be boosted for balance.

However, if I had power to do whatever I wanted, I would completely scrap the way LRMs and SSRMs are currently implemented. For LRMs:
-LRMs no longer lock (and therefore do not require a targetable foe/ECM doesn't neutralize). They fire straight forward, at a much higher speed than current, in a slight arc, or in a high arc, and lower speed, if the player is targeting a mech with no LOS.
-LRMs travel straight untill they get within a certain distance (tweakable for balance) of an enemy, at which point they start to track (tracking angles also tweakable). Tracking angle is such that you can't just fire in the general direction of an enemy and expect to get hits: you have to lead your LRMs so their initial angle of approach is shallow enough.
-Artemis IV makes LRMs track earlier and tighter, but requires LOS and is neutralized by ECM
-Narc and tag have the same effect as Artemis, but does not require LOS (i.e. for tag, another mech could be tagging), and is still neutralized by ECM

For SSRMs:
-SSRMs do not lock as they do currently
-When you pull the trigger with SSRMs, SSRMs will attempt to lock for ~1s. This requires you to keep your reticule on target for 1s
-If the target leaves the reticule during the lock process, lock is broken, and you have to try again
-If the target remains under the reticule during the lock process, the SSRMs fire at the end of the lock process and track as currently implemented

This implementation would require some degree of aiming for both SSRMs and LRMs, and IMO would make LRMs much more useful, and make it possible to increase SSRM damage without breaking the game (i.e. nullifying lights).

[Koniving]

Ookami, Namais -- I hate to ask but reign it in you two are nit-picking over wording about risk and reward of an ammo based weapon. Topic is whether or not a lower alpha-strike capacity and faster cooling would benefit the game and how heat neutral mechs are good for it.

Back on topic (for capacity) :

Capacity: (Proposed is 29 safe, 30 shutdown versus MWO's rising system averaging between 50 and 80 safe limits without shutdown)
Cooling: (Proposed is 2.0 DHS all the way through, versus 10 2.0 DHS + extra 1.4 DHS).

Demonstration 2 AC/2s and 2 AC/5s doing insane damage in 12 (shutdown from constantly firing in 30 capacity, 2.0 cooling for 14 DHS) to 20 seconds (shutdown from MWO's current system for 14 DHS), how they work with both rule sets.

Spoiler

I'll take a recent build of mine. It's freaking nearly invincible.

Currently with 2 AC/2s and 2 AC/5s, in the span of 18 seconds, I can pump out an insane amount of damage (well over 200 with a macro slowing them down). I can go that long, without ever overheating. Why? Because our capacity allows it to happen.

We'll compare the true TT (MW3) system translated second by second (instead of summarizing 10 seconds) with the MWO system of heat, using MWO's heat generation for each weapon, and MWO's firing rate for each weapon. I will also tell you the damage dealt by each weapon in the span it takes for me to start firing and to shut down.

With 30 capacity, 2.0 sinking per heatsink, generating ..
Breakdown

Spoiler

0.6666666666666667 per second for each AC/5 (1 heat every 1.50 seconds) * 2 = 1.333333333333333
+
1 heat every 0.5 seconds for 2 per second * 2 = 4 per second
versus 14 DHS in tabletop values = 0.2 cooling per second per DHS = 2.8 per second
= 5.333333333333333 per second trumped to 5.34 per second generated against 2.8 per second...
= 2.54 heat generated per second

I'd shut down in 12 seconds at a heat generation of 30.48.

In MWO, breakdown at 55.6 capacity (explained below) and MWO's engine 2.0 and 1.4 mixed cooling rates.

Spoiler

55.6 is my capacity for the same 14 DHS (30 base + 20 + 5.6). This is Without Any unlocks or efficiencies!
That's a cooling rate of 2.56 per second.
5.34 per second - 2.56 = 2.78 heat generated per second after cooling.
At 2.78 per second I hit 55.6 exactly at 20 seconds.

I shut down at 20 seconds. Again, without any unlocks or efficiencies. It'd be even longer with them.

TT capacity and cooling, MWO heat level for AC2s and AC5s at MWO's firing rate, I shutdown at 12 seconds.
MWO capacity and cooling for the same build, MWO heat level for AC2s and AC5s at MWO's firing rate I shut down at 20 seconds.

• Proposed system, (30 capacity, 14 DHS giving me 2.8 per second cooling at 2.0 per heatsink) in 12 seconds I deal 96 damage from the AC2s and 80 from the AC/5s and shutdown, TT capacity and 2.0 cooling. That totals 176 damage in 12 seconds, then I am forcefully shutdown for a brief second or two and need to withdraw to cool.
  
• MWO's current heat capacity for 14 DHS (10 engine, 4 chassis), 2.0 engine, 1.4 chassis. In 20 seconds I deal 320 damage from the AC2s and can fire an uneven number of times (13 per AC/5) dealing 130 damage for the 13 times I can fire both AC5s. I then am forcefully shut down for a brief second where I need to power up and withdraw. That comes out to 450 damage in 20 seconds!

Which one is safer to use? Hm? Yes, you will get heat spikes. That's the idea. You're supposed to NOT fire everything you have at the same time. In tabletop they fire everything one at a time, once, per 10 seconds out of fear of explosion. You, as a pilot, should FEAR shutting down. You should FEAR exploding. Which means you'd control your fire, too.

Edit: (Clarified which result is which for those skimping past the math.)

Edited by Koniving, 30 July 2013 - 08:38 AM.