General Taskeen, on 15 August 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:
I wanna play THAT game
We do! PPCs are practically one hit kill weapons. But yesh, where destruction on mechs looks like that would be great.
Notice the Timber Wolf could alpha 2 regular PPCs, but the Summoner could only fire one ER PPC at a time?
2 PPCs of 10 heat = 20 heat, hot and risky but doable. Need to use MGs while cooling down. 2 ER PPC of 15 at the same time, 30, shutdown. So it had to go one at a time, and after a little bit of cooling from the first ER PPC (walking behind the pillar to avoid damage), the Summoner could fire again. That's the game I would like. Where PPCs are high risk weapons, even higher risk for brawling while safer as an energy based sniping weapon. A game where lasers and pulse lasers are the go-to energy brawling weapon, and autocannons and SRMs are the main weapons of choice for brawlers.
There's Snub-Nosed PPCs for brawling. "PPC shotguns." But regular PPCs and ER PPCs were always supposed to be a bad choice for close up tangling as the PPC person always lost. Heck, the PPC mech on TT usually loses up close too.
The best thing about that video is the idea that if you shoot someone while they are jumping, the weapons impact is actually gonna affect their movement in mid air, since there's no way your JJ's could magically compensate for it.
The best thing about that video is the idea that if you shoot someone while they are jumping, the weapons impact is actually gonna affect their movement in mid air, since there's no way your JJ's could magically compensate for it.
In scripting a 3D animation concept, I actually have a Blackjack leaping into the air and when he realizes he's about to go straight into a volley of weapons fire, the Blackjack shoots his twin AC/2s 3 times to slow his forward motion in order to avoid it, causing the mech to fall slightly backward. So thoughts like that have been in my mind.
We do! PPCs are practically one hit kill weapons. But yesh, where destruction on mechs looks like that would be great.
Yes, Yes, what I mean though is the Intro's and the MW5 Concept too where the game is imagined to be more sim like and somewhat slower over all with the combat or with the pro shot on the jumping Summoner (the jump jets look like they thrust better) and then the Summoner manages to get the upperhand against Two Madcats. Or as in the MW5 video where the Warhammer and Atlas are slugging it out, while the Warhammer's Targeting Computer isn't able to get good locks and shoots PPC's all over the place. And of course, where heat generation/heatsinks/weapons make more sense. Etc, Etc.
General Taskeen, on 15 August 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:
Yes, Yes, what I mean though is the Intro's and the MW5 Concept too where the game is imagined to be more sim like and somewhat slower over all with the combat or with the pro shot on the jumping Summoner (the jump jets look like they thrust better) and then the Summoner manages to get the upperhand against Two Madcats. Or as in the MW5 video where the Warhammer and Atlas are slugging it out, while the Warhammer's Targeting Computer isn't able to get good locks and shoots PPC's all over the place. And of course, where heat generation/heatsinks/weapons make more sense. Etc, Etc.
I agree. Though it's not because of the computer that the PPCs go all over the place. If you combine our current system with closed beta's slow convergence, it's essentially the same thing.
Far as the PPCs missing, watch the Atlas's autocannon and the impacts against the Warhammer, then watch what happens to the Warhammer's shots. It has nothing to do with the Warhammer's computer, it's the fact that a high-impact ballistic weapon keeps hitting him is preventing the Warhammer from keeping his arms lined up to the target.
Line up shot. Charge weapon. Heat begins to build.
BAM! BAM! BAM! Autocannon hits.
Warhammer's side torso jerks. Arm loses convergence, alignment's thrown out of whack, PPC high into the air. Heat continues to build, then levels off and begins to cool.
Warhammer backs behind a building to get out of the line of fire. Steps back out. Uses the crosshair to scatter random SRM-shots to try and create a smoke screen to reduce the Atlas's pinpoint damage. Lines up PPC, but...
BAM BAM BAM! Autocannon!
Warhammer is unable to keep his alignment to fire (remember, in that video and closed beta there's a half second between when he pulls the trigger and when the weapon shoots as PPCs used to 'build up' and then launch).
What you will notice is when there is not an autocannon being fired the PPC is very accurate. When the autocannon is firing, the PPC never hits. It's quite interesting. At first I thought it was recoil. Instead it's an involuntary reaction to impulse (being shaken around).
The exchange keeps going back and forth until finally the Atlas fires his (LRMs?) at an extremely close range. The Warhammer pilot bails. A nuclear explosion ensues.
Now, in reality a Fusion Reaction Engine would not explode like that. But at the same time that's only if it has the time to detect the impending breach and perform all the safety measures of shutting down. However, like a Fission Reaction Engine, it could still go critical if it has absolutely no chance to shut down during fusion when it is compromised. At least that's what I would hypothesize.
But yes.. All in all two things are necessary for slower-paced combat.
1) A very low heat capacity, 45 maximum. [Note: 10 engine DHS in MWO gives you 50. A trial mech with 10 SHS gives you 40. Ever noticed how much slower paced a trial mech's combat abilities are?].
2) Either the removal of XL engines or -- better -- a re-institution of repair and rearm as a balancing tool rather than a money sink. (Right now we're all running the best the Star League had to offer; everyone's got super rare and Lost Tech; the most advanced technology ever; we need a way to limit that!)
Repair and rearm? GAH! NO!
Wait.. Hear me out. PGI's method here was too strongly based on World of Tanks as a money sink rather than a balancing tool. Here's my thoughts.
Spoiler
A jisted example is this: ZOMG I didn't even start but I know it's TL;DR. What's the gist? See below spoiler.
Spoiler
As a lone wolf or faction member..
The faction you work for or sided with during a skirmish will supply you with full repairs on all common tech and a limited supply of ammunition for free. After all you're apart of their military forces and/or it's a thank you for assisting them in their conflict.
Repair
They either cannot or simply will not pay for the following: Upgrades (endo -- expensive but pay only if your structure is damaged, ferro -- dirt cheap but pay if your armor is damaged), XL engines, double heatsinks (only pay for damaged/destroyed ones), ER PPCs (Rare Tech), and LB-10x (Lost Tech).
Thus, if you don't upgrade, you keep all the money you earned.
If you upgraded, well you pay a little out of pocket to fix it up but only if it gets damaged or broken.
But wait, I can see why for an ER PPC but why charge me for an LB-10?
Easy. In lore LB-10s are rare, but aside from that they are also supposed to be able to fire both LB-10X ammo as well as AC/10 ammo. It's 1 ton lighter than an AC/10, generates less heat, and is supposed to fire both cluster-shot and AC/10 slug ammunition. That's why.
So why would I want an AC/10, aside from no repairs?
Eventually AC/10s as well as other autocannons deserve multiple types of ammunition. LB, Rotary and Ultra Autocannons cannot use these special munitions.
Rearm
You're allowed to carry up to 4 tons of any specific kind of ammunition on the faction's . Example: 4 tons AC/2 ammo. 4 tons LRM ammo. 4 tons AC/20 ammo. Or even 4 tons LRM, 4 tons SRM, 4 tons AC/20.
If you carry 5 tons of a specific ammo, but only use 4 tons, you're fine. But if you used all 5 tons, you're paying for that 5th ton.
To avoid loop holes: Having special ammunition does not count as a separate ammo.
This is to reduce boating of ammunition based weapons. Although it's not terribly expensive to the point where you couldn't do it. It's pricey to the point where you might be hesitant to do so.
You covered Factions and Lone Wolves, what about Mercs?
Mercs from what was hinted from Bryan not only have a much more direct affect of the map, getting paid more based on how many planets their group controls, etc., they are also filled with tons and tons of min-maxers! Hardcore, difficult to balance folk that will find every nook, cranny, and exploit they can to fulfill the power metas they set.
To deal with this, they will have the full Hardcore Repair and Rearm. I've mentioned this a few times though I really only had basic details for this part of the idea.
Of course, in past iterations of this I'm much more detailed and list all contingencies, such as the nearly impossible "I fell into debt" with factions (my god you'd have to have an XL-carrying assault mech boating 20 tons of ammo with every feasible upgrade installed and lose, epically, in some 40 matches in a row based on one calculated scenario to fall into debt), and the much more likely "I jumped in too deep with the mercs and lost my wallet" scenario.
Summary; TL;DR:
A repair and rearm system that allows you to choose (Choices are good) your participation level by choosing if you want or don't want something.
Faction or Lone Wolf: No repair unless upgrading or using advanced tech.
Only pay to repair said upgrades and advanced tech. No rearm unless boating more than 4 of one kind of ammo; encourages variety.
Thus avoid repair and rearm by using lore friendly common tech and not boating or participate in repair and rearm at the extent that you personally choose based on what you put on your mech.
Hardcore option: Join a mercenary group.
Contingencies provided in the past or available for every scenario of epic fail possible.
If you compare closed beta (common capacity of most mechs 36 to 52 max, 0.6 to 1.9/sec cooling, 30 to 90 kph) to MWO of today (40 to 88.56 average capacity, 2.0 to 4.96/sec cooling, 50 to 150.6 kph), there's quite a bit of difference there with the removal of repair and rearm and the introduction of XLs, endo for everyone, double heatsinks, etc. Curious, isn't it?
Urban Brawling. Repair and rearm. Notice the speed of mechs? The big stompy ~medium~ mechs? The even slower assaults? The glowy Atlas eyes?
Classic light gameplay under repair and rearm. A light barely going 120? Blasphemy!
20 minutes of mixed classic gameplay (feel sorry for my commando, my own team was throwing me around like a rag doll)! Streaks that require more skill than SRMs and MISS frequently?!?! Say it isn't so!
But yes. I'm going to wait for ATD 46, and I'll bring my findings on the heat capacity and "My" version of heat neutrality, as I know PGI's version really is terrifying. And request the Devs if they would consider instating it. Hope for support in that regard.
I know Homeless Bill's Accuracy Penalty System (Targeting computer tax thingy) which is basically Paul's heat penalty but against accuracy which is more consistent and less nonsensical gets insane support. Let's hope I get even a sliver of that support.
I agree. Though it's not because of the computer that the PPCs go all over the place. If you combine our current system with closed beta's slow convergence, it's essentially the same thing.
Far as the PPCs missing, watch the Atlas's autocannon and the impacts against the Warhammer, then watch what happens to the Warhammer's shots. It has nothing to do with the Warhammer's computer, it's the fact that a high-impact ballistic weapon keeps hitting him is preventing the Warhammer from keeping his arms lined up to the target.
Line up shot. Charge weapon. Heat begins to build.
BAM! BAM! BAM! Autocannon hits.
Warhammer's side torso jerks. Arm loses convergence, alignment's thrown out of whack, PPC high into the air. Heat continues to build, then levels off and begins to cool.
Warhammer backs behind a building to get out of the line of fire. Steps back out. Uses the crosshair to scatter random SRM-shots to try and create a smoke screen to reduce the Atlas's pinpoint damage. Lines up PPC, but...
BAM BAM BAM! Autocannon!
Warhammer is unable to keep his alignment to fire (remember, in that video and closed beta there's a half second between when he pulls the trigger and when the weapon shoots as PPCs used to 'build up' and then launch).
What you will notice is when there is not an autocannon being fired the PPC is very accurate. When the autocannon is firing, the PPC never hits. It's quite interesting. At first I thought it was recoil. Instead it's an involuntary reaction to impulse (being shaken around).
But Koniving What about the players Mad Skillz? They don't want their shot to be thrown off, they have skillz! Didn't they tell you that?
Lol. Honestly you'd think PGI would introduce a pilot skill or mech efficiency or module called Inertial Dampeners or something like that... To stablize your mech more under heavy fire. Definitely as a module.
"Wait, I gotta choose between dampeners and seismic? Ffffffffffff......!!!!!!!!!!!"
Lol. Honestly you'd think PGI would introduce a pilot skill or mech efficiency or module called Inertial Dampeners or something like that... To stablize your mech more under heavy fire. Definitely as a module.
"Wait, I gotta choose between dampeners and seismic? Ffffffffffff......!!!!!!!!!!!"
You call that a choice? It's a no brainer to me. I don't even have seismic!
Koniving, I would support your system in a heartbeat. I don't know if you have your own thread+poll for this setup already, but if you did I would go over there and vote it up.
I remember the way MW4 weapon impacts would throw off your aim. On more than one occasion, a well-timed chain-fired shot would throw off someone's entire Alpha Strike.
Having some real weapon impacts would add another layer of mind games to an exchange of fire between two mechs, and with a reduced heat capacity forcing mechs to space out their shots, you would see a rapid sequence of shots flying between two mechs, with each pilot trying to anticipate when and what his opponent will fire next.
Somewhat reminds me of the "wake-up games" in fighting games.
Having some real weapon impacts would add another layer of mind games to an exchange of fire between two mechs, and with a reduced heat capacity forcing mechs to space out their shots, you would see a rapid sequence of shots flying between two mechs, with each pilot trying to anticipate when and what his opponent will fire next.
I imagine PGI will need to adjust it quite a bit if genuinely implemented. Next time you shoot an Atlas with an AC/20, watch it's reaction. With a reaction that extreme, a light mech should spin through the air and do a few flips after being hit by an aC/20. If that Atlas pilot saw that same reaction at the same level as what you see him do, I bet we'd see some players getting car-sick at their monitors!
Back when MWO's computer had "Warning: Targeted" I had that exact experience. Since 45% of MWO's weapons have a 4 second recycle time there was exactly 4 seconds between when I can fire, and when the other guy can fire. In a Cataphract 4x I have no chance of running away from an Atlas, especially with an XL 170 engine. But you know those BIG arms that Cataphracts have? When faced against brawler Atlases as was popular back then I immediately noticed a trend. "Warning: Targeted" would be followed approximately half a second later by "ZOMG AC/20 + medium lasers!" So I quickly learned to twist to the side and throw my arm up into the air to protect my body as soon as I heard that warning. Almost all the damage goes into my arm. Turn back. Fire my payload. "Warning: Targeted." Repeat.
Of course, one popular thing in Closed Beta that I miss is the effort and ways people tried to overcome obstacles in a slower-paced environment. Some pilots got really good at "Swatting," in which you would see an Atlas literally try to 'slap' an AC/20 round before it hits him so he doesn't have to twist away. Others like myself resorted to Turtlebacking (throw all your armor on your back and turn away from the opponent while you cool off, then turn around and expose your soft front body just long enough to get off a shot and turn away again). There were many tricks and they were very creative.
My overall favorite is the "Marching Centurion" also dubbed the Classic Centurion by me. Torso twist 50 degrees right. Aim left with your arm only as far as you can. Use this to shoot your enemies with the cannon, while protecting your right arm and body with the shield. Combine this with LRMs and you can really charge an Atlas head-on in a group of 2 Centurions at 64.8 kph and actually win, from across caustic valley in full sight the entire time.
But as far as my own thread: I actually tried doing my own thread. It poofed. Quickly disappears into K-town. But I think I'll consider doing what Homeless Bill has done. Take all the data, organize it as neatly as possible with a cluster of spoilers and fancy titles, and host it on a separate website or forum that can't disappear and post it to places like the NGNG forum, other podcasts, and so on.
Speaking of which... In this older post, the video (direct-linked here for convenience) might be a bit long but to use someone's words: "Koniving and Zhizhu have their own podcast now?" Not genuinely but I do hope to regularly post more things like it. It addresses many of my recent views and ideas, from repair and rearm, the King Crab, ammunition types for autocannons, why would the LB-10x be considered superior to the AC/10, the PGI's current heat system (not Ghost heat, just the real heat system) explained as simply as can be, and more. So much more. You can either watch me play without game sound as we chatter (the sound of the game gets muted midway through the first match) or just listen as you play your own games if you decide to watch it.
To be honest I'm surprised at how many people genuinely seemed to listen through it from start to finish, it's really quite touching as the video is 56 minutes long.
On that note I was really hoping to make autocannon 2 variants using 3 AC/2s to demonstrate different rates of fire. It'd never accomplish the precision of this for side by side comparisons, but I wanted to demonstrate the concepts and especially the dakka.
Sadly the ninja penalty has ruined any hopes of creating more autocannon variants within MWO to test. Nothing like a heat penalty to punish you for stagger-firing your AC/2s as it does ~not~ punish you for alpha strikes. Only stagger fire.
I imagine PGI will need to adjust it quite a bit if genuinely implemented. Next time you shoot an Atlas with an AC/20, watch it's reaction. With a reaction that extreme, a light mech should spin through the air and do a few flips after being hit by an aC/20. If that Atlas pilot saw that same reaction at the same level as what you see him do, I bet we'd see some players getting car-sick at their monitors!
Haha, I'm not suggesting anything that crazy. But something that throws someone's aim off by 10 degrees or so, is enough to make them miss entirely, or at least make them miss the location they were trying to aim for.
Quote
Back when MWO's computer had "Warning: Targeted" I had that exact experience. Since 45% of MWO's weapons have a 4 second recycle time there was exactly 4 seconds between when I can fire, and when the other guy can fire. In a Cataphract 4x I have no chance of running away from an Atlas, especially with an XL 170 engine. But you know those BIG arms that Cataphracts have? When faced against brawler Atlases as was popular back then I immediately noticed a trend. "Warning: Targeted" would be followed approximately half a second later by "ZOMG AC/20 + medium lasers!" So I quickly learned to twist to the side and throw my arm up into the air to protect my body as soon as I heard that warning. Almost all the damage goes into my arm. Turn back. Fire my payload. "Warning: Targeted." Repeat.
Of course, one popular thing in Closed Beta that I miss is the effort and ways people tried to overcome obstacles in a slower-paced environment. Some pilots got really good at "Swatting," in which you would see an Atlas literally try to 'slap' an AC/20 round before it hits him so he doesn't have to twist away. Others like myself resorted to Turtlebacking (throw all your armor on your back and turn away from the opponent while you cool off, then turn around and expose your soft front body just long enough to get off a shot and turn away again). There were many tricks and they were very creative.
One of my *favorite* things in this game is the challenge of blocking shots with arms/side torsos. Sometimes I manage to pull it off, and by tanking a big shot with my arm I gain an edge over someone as they overheat. Sometimes I screw up and twist too far, and the guy blows out my shoulder through the rear side torso.
When I got an Atlas-RS to try it out, to see its strengths and weaknesses, I immediately came to appreciate the skill it took to use an Atlas well, especially what you mentioned about swatting incoming fire with the arms. Top Atlas pilots are cautious, deliberate, but when they commit, they aim true and they actually have *fast* reflexes and good anticipation when it comes to blocking shots.
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My overall favorite is the "Marching Centurion" also dubbed the Classic Centurion by me. Torso twist 50 degrees right. Aim left with your arm only as far as you can. Use this to shoot your enemies with the cannon, while protecting your right arm and body with the shield. Combine this with LRMs and you can really charge an Atlas head-on in a group of 2 Centurions at 64.8 kph and actually win, from across caustic valley in full sight the entire time.
Ah the "cross-body" shot. It's a technique I've heard of, and screwed around with a bit in Testing Grounds, but I only just managed to properly execute it in a real game two days ago. Very cool move! Protected the exposed right torso of my Atlas-RS while laying laser fire on a Victor.
Quote
But as far as my own thread: I actually tried doing my own thread. It poofed. Quickly disappears into K-town. But I think I'll consider doing what Homeless Bill has done. Take all the data, organize it as neatly as possible with a cluster of spoilers and fancy titles, and host it on a separate website or forum that can't disappear and post it to places like the NGNG forum, other podcasts, and so on.
Speaking of which... In this older post, the video (direct-linked here for convenience) might be a bit long but to use someone's words: "Koniving and Zhizhu have their own podcast now?" Not genuinely but I do hope to regularly post more things like it. It addresses many of my recent views and ideas, from repair and rearm, the King Crab, ammunition types for autocannons, why would the LB-10x be considered superior to the AC/10, the PGI's current heat system (not Ghost heat, just the real heat system) explained as simply as can be, and more. So much more. You can either watch me play without game sound as we chatter (the sound of the game gets muted midway through the first match) or just listen as you play your own games if you decide to watch it.
To be honest I'm surprised at how many people genuinely seemed to listen through it from start to finish, it's really quite touching as the video is 56 minutes long.
Your ideas absolutely must get more attention. It would actually make the game faster paced, because of the increased heat dissipation, but mechs would probably live longer because shots would be spaced out to stay below the heat cap. Sure, a pilot can still Alpha Strike, but it'd be a desparation move, because it would shut him down. And if he doesn't kill his opponent with that shot, he'll be motionless and vulnerable to his opponent just head-shotting him while he's helpless.
Quote
On that note I was really hoping to make autocannon 2 variants using 3 AC/2s to demonstrate different rates of fire. It'd never accomplish the precision of this for side by side comparisons, but I wanted to demonstrate the concepts and especially the dakka.
Sadly the ninja penalty has ruined any hopes of creating more autocannon variants within MWO to test. Nothing like a heat penalty to punish you for stagger-firing your AC/2s as it does ~not~ punish you for alpha strikes. Only stagger fire.
The ninja heat is complete hogwash, all right. I'll take your system over the ghost heat any day.
Ah the "cross-body" shot. It's a technique I've heard of, and screwed around with a bit in Testing Grounds, but I only just managed to properly execute it in a real game two days ago. Very cool move! Protected the exposed right torso of my Atlas-RS while laying laser fire on a Victor.
Your ideas absolutely must get more attention. It would actually make the game faster paced, because of the increased heat dissipation, but mechs would probably live longer because shots would be spaced out to stay below the heat cap. Sure, a pilot can still Alpha Strike, but it'd be a desparation move, because it would shut him down. And if he doesn't kill his opponent with that shot, he'll be motionless and vulnerable to his opponent just head-shotting him while he's helpless.
Cross body shot. I've done it in the Atlas too when one side's weak. Works great in an Atlas with LRMs, too, as you can still hit with even more weapons than you can otherwise. My Atlas K uses this. Of course it uses a 340 XL engine, too, a Gauss Rifle, and LRM-20 with large lasers.
To be honest my "system" is just based on a combination of tabletop and assertions of heatsinks based on Mechwarrior 3 (all heatsinks cool at a static rate over time, capacity is a hard-set number and unyielding, and an alpha strike which hits that capacity results in an instant shutdown) and from there just testing 1 to 1 I'd get identical results in tabletop and megamek in as many cases as possible so long as a single condition is met: The first shot occurs at exactly 0 seconds on the ten second time slice. It does fail if the first shot occurs at any other point in time. And in a system of averages (in TT heat's actually dissipated in a non-static rate but try translating that into a game. PGI tried. We see what's happened), it's required to have a constant and consistent basis to make any real time translation work.
In my idea's defense in its single fallacy, have you seen the videos of MWTactics? They do the attack option first, because they force the first shot to occur at "0" seconds. Evidently they came to an identical conclusion. Pity they weren't doing MWO, but then again I wouldn't like the look of the mechs if they did (too gundam / anime-like).
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Combat being faster paced is both true and false. Yes, you'd cool faster with DHS after the change. But you still wouldn't be able to shoot anywhere near as much. Kills and such would actually take much longer, allowing you to make mistakes and recover without dying for the small ones.
A single Atlas swarmed by lights and mediums might actually survive a really long time going solo (which is why it would be crucial to have weight drop limits instated asap to keep from having so many assaults). Sure, he won't do jack if he isn't heat efficient. But if he is, even with 2 lights and 2 mediums you might be looking at a 2 to 3 minute fight. This is another reason why I said in the mentality of this, PGI might actually look to reduce our armor and structure values.
It will be faster paced in the sense that you recover much faster from a percentage. (4 medium lasers = 53.33% heat. With 15 DHS, gone in 5 seconds on Alpine and approximately 5.3 seconds on Forest Colony Snow.) It will be much faster paced in that brawls will last a much longer time so you'll spend more time fighting.
In light versus light combat, it really should be quite wild. Chasing each other around. Overheating easily. Tripping over each other. Trying to find tricks to get an edge over the other.
But all in all, in terms of kill and death rates it would be much slower paced. Yes headshots would again matter and become frequent in this environment. That's yet another reason to fear using an alpha strike. Becoming a sitting duck for a headshot.
It's true, though. An alpha strike of anything more than many small lasers or 7 medium lasers would be a move of desperation with high risk. Really shooting too fast would be high risk, too.
These might give you an idea.
Spoiler
This was an energy efficient build of weak weapons on an Atlas. I wouldn't be able to shoot the medium lasers as frequently as I do here due to the low heat capacity. So to get the same rate I would be chain firing single lasers and cut back on my cannon fire.
Here, Caustic Valley with a stock Victor (40 capacity). Granted it's single heatsinks so I would cool 2.25 times as fast as you see.. (it's not just 2 times as fast, as the capacity would be 30. Standard heatsinks would appear to cool faster, too. But I'd heat up faster for everything too. A lot faster.
With 40 capacity, 2 medium lasers on Alpine would bring me to approximately 20%. With the same place, 2 medium lasers with 30 capacity would bring me to 26.66%)
I think of all the benefits the great thing is that stock mechs would really become viable.
I just remembered that there is one piece of tech that this silly heat system we have right now **** a lot, and that is TSM http://www.sarna.net...Strength_Myomer. Having the ability to easily run hot will just be even more of a bonus when that bit of tech is added. But as proven by the fact that the issue of heat and heat neutral mechs was dismissed in closed beta with the statement of " we'll deal with that after we add it". I doubt thinking about the future balance issues is ever going to be something PGI does.
I just remembered that there is one piece of tech that this silly heat system we have right now **** a lot, and that is TSM http://www.sarna.net...Strength_Myomer. Having the ability to easily run hot will just be even more of a bonus when that bit of tech is added. But as proven by the fact that the issue of heat and heat neutral mechs was dismissed in closed beta with the statement of " we'll deal with that after we add it". I doubt thinking about the future balance issues is ever going to be something PGI does.
Xanquil, on 17 August 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:
I just remembered that there is one piece of tech that this silly heat system we have right now **** a lot, and that is TSM http://www.sarna.net...Strength_Myomer. Having the ability to easily run hot will just be even more of a bonus when that bit of tech is added. But as proven by the fact that the issue of heat and heat neutral mechs was dismissed in closed beta with the statement of " we'll deal with that after we add it". I doubt thinking about the future balance issues is ever going to be something PGI does.
I am eager to see what they'll do with Clan tech. Or not.
Cross body shot. I've done it in the Atlas too when one side's weak. Works great in an Atlas with LRMs, too, as you can still hit with even more weapons than you can otherwise. My Atlas K uses this. Of course it uses a 340 XL engine, too, a Gauss Rifle, and LRM-20 with large lasers.
That's a possibility I hadn't thought of, to use guided missiles without exposing the entire front profile! I must try this on my Awesome-8R, slim down that wide profile. One of the nice things about having fully articulated arms.
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To be honest my "system" is just based on a combination of tabletop and assertions of heatsinks based on Mechwarrior 3 (all heatsinks cool at a static rate over time, capacity is a hard-set number and unyielding, and an alpha strike which hits that capacity results in an instant shutdown) and from there just testing 1 to 1 I'd get identical results in tabletop and megamek in as many cases as possible so long as a single condition is met: The first shot occurs at exactly 0 seconds on the ten second time slice. It does fail if the first shot occurs at any other point in time. And in a system of averages (in TT heat's actually dissipated in a non-static rate but try translating that into a game. PGI tried. We see what's happened), it's required to have a constant and consistent basis to make any real time translation work.
In my idea's defense in its single fallacy, have you seen the videos of MWTactics? They do the attack option first, because they force the first shot to occur at "0" seconds. Evidently they came to an identical conclusion. Pity they weren't doing MWO, but then again I wouldn't like the look of the mechs if they did (too gundam / anime-like).
Well your system is a more faithful translation of the TT to real time. The assumption that the first shot begins at 0 seconds is fine... for all intents are purposes, in real time, the moment someone shoots can be considered a "turn". We are after all talking about mech longevity and combat endurance starting from the moment actual shots are being fired. We don't count mech life expectancy from the start of the match when no one is shooting yet.
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Combat being faster paced is both true and false. Yes, you'd cool faster with DHS after the change. But you still wouldn't be able to shoot anywhere near as much. Kills and such would actually take much longer, allowing you to make mistakes and recover without dying for the small ones.
A single Atlas swarmed by lights and mediums might actually survive a really long time going solo (which is why it would be crucial to have weight drop limits instated asap to keep from having so many assaults). Sure, he won't do jack if he isn't heat efficient. But if he is, even with 2 lights and 2 mediums you might be looking at a 2 to 3 minute fight. This is another reason why I said in the mentality of this, PGI might actually look to reduce our armor and structure values.
It will be faster paced in the sense that you recover much faster from a percentage. (4 medium lasers = 53.33% heat. With 15 DHS, gone in 5 seconds on Alpine and approximately 5.3 seconds on Forest Colony Snow.) It will be much faster paced in that brawls will last a much longer time so you'll spend more time fighting.
In light versus light combat, it really should be quite wild. Chasing each other around. Overheating easily. Tripping over each other. Trying to find tricks to get an edge over the other.
But all in all, in terms of kill and death rates it would be much slower paced. Yes headshots would again matter and become frequent in this environment. That's yet another reason to fear using an alpha strike. Becoming a sitting duck for a headshot.
It's true, though. An alpha strike of anything more than many small lasers or 7 medium lasers would be a move of desperation with high risk. Really shooting too fast would be high risk, too.
Yes! The combat would be more frenetic as pilots scramble to unleash their entire weapons payload, a little bit at a time, trying always nervously to stay below the heat cap.
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These might give you an idea.
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This was an energy efficient build of weak weapons on an Atlas. I wouldn't be able to shoot the medium lasers as frequently as I do here due to the low heat capacity. So to get the same rate I would be chain firing single lasers and cut back on my cannon fire.
Here, Caustic Valley with a stock Victor (40 capacity). Granted it's single heatsinks so I would cool 2.25 times as fast as you see.. (it's not just 2 times as fast, as the capacity would be 30. Standard heatsinks would appear to cool faster, too. But I'd heat up faster for everything too. A lot faster.
With 40 capacity, 2 medium lasers on Alpine would bring me to approximately 20%. With the same place, 2 medium lasers with 30 capacity would bring me to 26.66%)
I think of all the benefits the great thing is that stock mechs would really become viable.
I also like the idea of mechs slowing down at high heat cap. It provides a way for a mech to escape from an enemy of equal or even slightly faster speed. If you have two light mechs both topping 150 kph, and one of them is a dedicated EW platform and the other one built for combat, the EW light mech can eventually escape as the combat light mech heats up from firing his weapons and loses a bit of speed.
I've seen people in matches saying the game is being launched in September, and hadn't read anything about it on the forums (i must read the wrong sections), so i assumed they were joking.
But now i've read it and still can't believe it. Launch...with this joke of a heat system?
A complicated heat system does not stop people making heat neutral mechs. It just means that everyone is forced to remove weapons from their mechs....ones that are supposed to be on stock mechs!
I have no problem with players having low damage to be heat neutral, or with players having huge damage potential before needing to cool down. It's a tradeoff.
Players have offered many suggestions for alternative heat systems, and i don't think i've read one which could be worse than the current system.
PGI really need to accept that they made a mistake and redo the heat system. And remember, Keep It Simple, Stupid.
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General Taskeen, on 15 August 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:
PPCs are practically one hit kill weapons. But yesh, where destruction on mechs looks like that would be great.
. Example: 4 tons AC/2 ammo. 4 tons LRM ammo. 4 tons AC/20 ammo. Or even 4 tons LRM, 4 tons SRM, 4 tons AC/20.
One of the nice things about having fully articulated arms.
