376 replies to this topic

[Wales Grey]

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Nah cos they could boat LL, PPCs. Ofc when compared to those it's inferior but with the heat penalties that's changed.

Now with that gone and no curb to the LPL it would be next to be boated for that big alpha.

You guys can't honestly see that?

I can honestly see you've never tried to use LPL in any quantity greater than two. And that you don't understand why LL/PPC were good to begin with.

LL/PPC:

• Good/Excellent range
  
• Good/Excellent damage
  
• Managable heat
  
• Excellent damage/heat ratio
  
• Easy to hit with/Easy enough to hit with
  
• Okayish at brawling

LPL:

• God-Awful range
  
• Okay-ish DPS
  
• Awful heat issues
  
• Seriously the heat per second is awful on this gun
  
• Easy to hit with
  
• Cannot be used except for brawling

Literally noone used LPL in the competitive brackets, even in closed beta. They generated way too much heat and weighed too much for a dedicated brawling gun.

edit:
Let's get some actual numbers up in this *****.



One LPL generates almost as much Heat/Second as a PPC, while having about half the optimal range. And that Heat/Second is a vital statistic because it's a brawling gun.

You want to shoot DPS guns like the LPL, or SRMs, or MLas, as much as possible to squeeze as much DPS as possible out of the weight you've allocated to the gun. The LPL's massive heat/second eats into your mech's heat cap, which limits how much you can shoot your other brawling guns, which cuts into your mech's DPS which eliminates is what is supposed to make brawling-type weapons theoretically better than sniper weapons at close range.

Edited by Wales Grey, 30 July 2013 - 10:57 PM.

[nopempele]

Still, the new heat penalty system is the most ******** idea in MWO so far. Unintuitive, non-physical, hackish and not fixing anything (i.e. alpha strikers), but actually penalizing normal players (who use LLs or LPLs).

[nopempele]

Wales Grey, on 30 July 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

Literally noone used LPL in the competitive brackets, even in closed beta. They generated way too much heat and weighed too much for a dedicated brawling gun.

They weigh more than LLs by two tons. That's two extra MLs for ya.

Edited by nopempele, 30 July 2013 - 10:56 PM.

[Nauht]

Wales Grey, on 30 July 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

I can honestly see you've never tried to use LPL in any quantity greater than two. And that you don't understand why LL/PPC were good to begin with.

/snip

Yes, yes I know all this and personally never took the pulse lasers.

But you're still missing the point I'm trying to make.

I'd never run a 6ppc stalker competitively either. Or even a 4 PPC one. Would you run one competitively? No right.
But people did. As well as 6LL ones... Whatever they could boat.

By addressing those and not LPLs what do you think would be the next weapon to be boated for that alpha. Think objectively.
You reckon those that ran 4 or 6 PPC/LL cared about heat when they could core a medium in one alpha?
Why would PGI not link LPLs with LL when the glaringly obvious work around to even putting in a 2 LL limit is to just have 2LL and the rest LPL. It's just like people laughing at them and boating 2 ERPPC and 2 PPC before the link.

For the record I love the pulse lasers. I use them cos they're a favourite weapon and when I want to just have fun. When I want to play serious and kill things I drop them.



The LPL by itself is a totally different issue to the one of heat penalties and I fully support any love they can give it.

[Wales Grey]

LPL have always been strictly inferior to LL. Always. Even in Battletech, LPL have simply never been as good as LL, except in a few fringe cases that cannot be replicated in MWO. (ex. Wraith) That 300m range is absolutely crippling for a 7t weapon that barely does more damage than a LL.

So let's say this again: LPL are awful This change makes them more awful.

People didn't run laserdrill or hexappc Stalkers in the competitive circuit because they were not as good as other designs.

Talking about theoretical situations where a person drops a pair of LL for LPL to get around the #magnumopus #swagradiation #ghostheat is also stupid; LL are two tons lighter than LPL. Where is that extra weight gonna come from?

Armor? You need that to get to a range where you can use your new LPLs.
Heat sinks? You need more of those with your new LPLs.
Other Weapons? Congrats, you just compromised your mech's role on the team.

Wanna know why LPL/LL were never an issue? Because you have to keep looking at the guy you are shooting. PPC/Gauss/SRMs don't have to deal with that, so you can either duck back behind cover at range, or twist to take the return shots on your arms/side torsos instead of your CT.

You even admit in your post that they're awful at actually being useful.

Edited by Wales Grey, 30 July 2013 - 11:42 PM.

[MechFrog1]

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 11:15 PM, said:

By addressing those and not LPLs what do you think would be the next weapon to be boated for that alpha.

Because it would only be the next weapon to be boated if this was backwards land where the next boated weapon was the worst possible choice.

If you love pulse lasers so much why do you seem to know absolutely nothing about them?

[Nauht]

mint frog, on 30 July 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Because it would only be the next weapon to be boated if this was backwards land where the next boated weapon was the worst possible choice.

If you love pulse lasers so much why do you seem to know absolutely nothing about them?

Geez - cant you read what I've been saying.

Cos they're shiet awful compared to LL/PPC, for the f'n third time I know all this and agree with you.

That doesnt mean jack to some. Particularly those that love to boat for the high ultra.
Like I said do you think that particular person would care about dps, heat efficiencies, range, blah blah techs if it meant they could core a mech in one alpha?

There are plenty that run srm boats, LL boats, erppc boats just for that purpose. They could not give a flying fnck about any of that as long as they get that big alpha all at once. And the most obvious plain work around would be to mix up LPL and LL. i'll say it once more - the LPL issue as a weapon of itself is entirely a different issue to what pGI are wanting to do with the alpha heat penalties.

Obviously PGI saw this and pre-empted what the typical config would be. FFS I almost wish they hadnt just so we could have posters comin on saying "what a joke the laser heat scale was cos I'll just bypass it with LPL".
Anyhow its a moot point. I can see why they did it.

[Wales Grey]

mint frog, on 30 July 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

If you love pulse lasers so much why do you seem to know absolutely nothing about them?

I don't think you're giving him enough credit. :colbert:

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 11:15 PM, said:

Yes, yes I know all this and personally never took the pulse lasers.
<snip>
For the record I love the pulse lasers. I use them cos they're a favourite weapon and when I want to just have fun. When I want to play serious and kill things I drop them.

He knows that his favorite weapon, which he never takes, are awful so he never uses them when he wants to win.

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

Geez - cant you read what I've been saying.

Cos they're shiet awful compared to LL/PPC, for the f'n third time I know all this and agree with you.

That doesnt mean jack to some. Particularly those that love to boat for the high ultra.
Like I said do you think that particular person would care about dps, heat efficiencies, range, blah blah techs if it meant they could core a mech in one alpha?

There are plenty that run srm boats, LL boats, erppc boats just for that purpose. They could not give a flying fnck about any of that as long as they get that big alpha all at once. And the most obvious plain work around would be to mix up LPL and LL. i'll say it once more - the LPL issue as a weapon of itself is entirely a different issue to what pGI are wanting to do with the alpha heat penalties.

Obviously PGI saw this and pre-empted what the typical config would be. FFS I almost wish they hadnt just so we could have posters comin on saying "what a joke the laser heat scale was cos I'll just bypass it with LPL".
Anyhow its a moot point. I can see why they did it.

if LPL are awful for reason that are unrelated to why PPCs/LL are good/used to be good then why in the name of the throne of God would you say that people would use them to bypass boating restrictions on mechs that noone uses except as gimmick machines when they don't care about winning anyway

Edited by Wales Grey, 30 July 2013 - 11:51 PM.

[MechFrog1]

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

Geez - cant you read what I've been saying.

Cos they're shiet awful compared to LL/PPC, for the f'n third time I know all this and agree with you.

That doesnt mean jack to some. Particularly those that love to boat for the high ultra.
Like I said do you think that particular person would care about dps, heat efficiencies, range, blah blah techs if it meant they could core a mech in one alpha?

There are plenty that run srm boats, LL boats, erppc boats just for that purpose. They could not give a flying fnck about any of that as long as they get that big alpha all at once. And the most obvious plain work around would be to mix up LPL and LL. i'll say it once more - the LPL issue as a weapon of itself is entirely a different issue to what pGI are wanting to do with the alpha heat penalties.

Obviously PGI saw this and pre-empted what the typical config would be. FFS I almost wish they hadnt just so we could have posters comin on saying "what a joke the laser heat scale was cos I'll just bypass it with LPL".
Anyhow its a moot point. I can see why they did it.

So your argument boils down to, we need to continually hammer LPL into the dirt because people who want high alphas might use them even though they're terrible for high alpha builds. And you know this because they're your favorite weapon even though you admit that you never use them when you want to win. Therefore, your disprove your own statement.

Do you smell burning hair?

[Nauht]

It's like banging my head against a brick wall.

Last time i'm gonna say - i agree with you. I [REDACTED] agree with you- LPL are [REDACTED] compared to LL/PPCs. Thats why I never used them when I'm playing serious.

But to pre-empt the possibility of them being boated as an obvious work around to the 2LL limit, people would have taken them.

[REDACTED]third time I have to say this.
I'm over it, you're arguing without looking at it objectively for the intended purpose of the boating penalty is for - and that is NOT to nerf the LPL.

[REDACTED] I wish they had exams for reading comprehension like they used to. Anyway you're not worth the angst so say what you will.
This is what we got. If they take the LPL penalty out - GOOD.

Edited by Dakkath, 31 July 2013 - 08:39 AM.
language.

[BADWVLF]

it was a great day of battel,,game seem more stable,,after several hours of work i finaly got my joystick to work decently and could enjoy the game after a week of frustration..happy about that,,the new map is awesome,,just 1 heck of a battel map,,we need more of those,,the changes in sizmic range was acceptable,and i believe game play was enhanced,,great job by the developers, would like to see a death match with no bases or cap,and i think we need the ability to take the team into the training maps for practice instead of just ourselves,,however overall,,the game is great and getting better,,1 more thing if you please,,we need the ability to change the color of our targeting reticle,,the yellow is just a bad color,,any way super job,,great game,,veyron

[Ter Ushaka]

You should really just use different words instead of trying to act like a hardass with your abbreviated curse words. Just sayin'.

[MechFrog1]

The problem is that your proposal that they'd be a workaround to the heat system is totally nonsensical since they are much much worse in every metric than the weapon they're supposed to be replacing. You paint a picture of a PPC/Gauss rifle equivalency but LL and LPL are horrible in combination. Only a complete ***** would try to boat LPL, even before the heat system went in that needlessly crushed them even futher. Tying them to LL, which also were pointlessly nerfed only limits builds even further.

Reading comprehension indeed.

The problem is that your proposal that they'd be a workaround to the heat system is totally nonsensical since they are much much worse in every metric than the weapon they're supposed to be replacing. You paint a picture of a PPC/Gauss rifle equivalency but LL and LPL are horrible in combination. Only a complete ***** would try to boat LPL, even before the heat system went in that needlessly crushed them even further. Tying them to LL, which also were pointlessly nerfed only limits builds even further.

Reading comprehension indeed.

[JeremyCrow]

Doesn't make any sense to alpha LL and LPL, so I don't see any impact on this move. Doesn't make sense, but I don't think it hurts either.

[Filter41]

JeremyCrow, on 31 July 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

Doesn't make any sense to alpha LL and LPL, so I don't see any impact on this move. Doesn't make sense, but I don't think it hurts either.

i am from germany and thats why i can not share your point of view. maybe you know germany is know for its boundless law-system... in fact since the 1990s every year more publications on law issues were published then literature, magazines and all other printed publications together!!!
so here my point: on any kind of systematical restriction follows a huge wave of workaround. this can be work in your mind on your builds, posts in the forum or maybe talks with your mates over ts... When things have no impact but we all have to pay the price of cognitive workaround on the restrictions, then we have a very bad deal!!! thats why you only call laws, when there is a real problem and the effort of the solution by a restriction is bigger then the price of keeping up buisiness afterwards (exept you are german^^)

so i dont like the heat scaling, but i understand the problem of a 6 PPC pinpoint hit on my center torso... lets look for better solutions, then to nerf LPLs!

Edited by Filter41, 31 July 2013 - 02:40 AM.

[Takony]

kotya, on 30 July 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

I pray that those are real

Optimization to the client code.

• Math functions.
  
• Gameplay code.
  
• Rendering code.
  
• HUD draw calls.

If by optimization they mean making the game screen-freeze every [REDACTED] match, they indeed managed to deliver. Unplayable garbage.

Edited by Dakkath, 31 July 2013 - 08:41 AM.
language.

[PanzerFurrry]

I am one of those who firmly believe that developers should stick to their vision of the game and implement ideas of their own. Communities can be pretty vocal about what they want, but that doesn't mean they should get it. I fully understand what developers meant with "noise ratio" argument and I agree with them to some extent. I know that developers are trying their best to create a wonderful game, however, I am genuinely worried about the general direction MWO is headed right now.

MWO is a game with such a delightful community, where you can have a friendly discussion about anything game related, where you are welcomed on public voice chat and where compliments about your performance are more common than bitching about how terribad you are or how you should uninstall and play tetris instead. We are all grown-ups here, fed up of those mainstream games where everything has to be perfectly balanced and equal, where slightest mistake will make you rage quit. I play(ed) MWO because I like(ed) the core mechanics, friendly community and because it was fun. I was delighted when I could buy my first extra mech bay slots and new mechs, and then next 10 slots, etc, it really felt like a progress.
After yesterday's patch, I have very little motivation to play MWO. I was having high hopes that something dramatically radical would come with heat changes and make a difference in the way how MWO is played. Unfortunately this isn't the case. Currently, all my mech bays are full, but I won't be buying new ones for some time. I feel terrible, because I would like to, but I don't wont to give developers a false impression that everything is OK.

Let me explain what MWO meant to me. I am a Linux user, therefore slightly out of touch with modern games. Yet when MWO came out of closed beta, it moved me so much, that I installed Windows alongside my Linux partition, so I could play MWO. And still, MWO is the only game I have on Windows. That should tell you how much incentive I had when MWO came out. Enormous.
I was enjoying the game, although it had HUD bugs, crashes, freezes, missing textures on some maps, unbearable night vision and predator like heat vision... but when stars aligned, game was playable and fun to play. Until the balance patches started pouring in...

I survived the Raven 3L dreadnoughts, trollmandoes, swaybacks, splatcats, LRMpocalypse, PPC hell, sniper nightmare, because the core mechanics were good and enjoyable. Although DHS, ECM, Streaks and GXP made no sense, it was fun to play with different loadouts and test them in battle. However, after hundreds of battles, things only became marginally better, where some problems of 2012 are still present. Instead of focusing on them, we are being introduced with JJ cockpit shake, heat scale manipulation, seismic sensors, critical hits, speed limitations on legged mechs and so on. I am all for the game being deep and full of varieties, but with all those features, game feels out of touch.

I really think developers should sit down and have a good look of how this game is progressing. Starting from scratch, focusing on what works and what not, creating the framework which makes sense. Because core of МWO is good, but it needs to be adjusted to pinpoint accuracy and targeting.
I feel terrible and I am sorry to say, but I don't think the direction PGIGP is taking, is the best solution for MWO.

[Teufel Hunden 0351]

GZeorymer, on 30 July 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

I figured I'd add my 2 cents worth, not sure if it'll mean anything, but opinions and words have meaning, in my opinion. Unless those words are heard, then nothing may change, for better or for worse. And I do hope the Dev team reads this post.

First off, LOVE This game, despite the flaws. It's not perfect, but it is a fun game. Though like many players, I'm noticing obvious flaws in the system that players can exploit to make the game either no fun when on the recieving end, or a pain of meta gaming stats. So, here are my thoughts...

1) Reconsideration on the Hardpoint/Customization system:
The strength of this game allows the different hard points of that mech to have nearly anything in it, as long as it follows within the limits of the hardpoint system. You can have an awesome with it's 3 PPCs and a small laser, or switch it up; maybe 3 ER PPcs or make it a medium laser boat. But that also presents a flaw in the system. Currently sniping is a hard tactic to counter due to the high alpha damage that's being done. 2 PPCs and a gauss round is a solid 35 damage on paper. That'll tear most armor off medium mechs in one volley.

The implimenation of the new heat system has had some good things, and bad things about it. It's 'slightly' reduced the boating. I'm seeing less 4 or 6 PPC stalkers (Thank Gawd!), but because people have research the heat system, I still see 2 PPC + 2 ER PPC stalkers who fire them in pairs, delivering solid 40 points near pinpiont. I've heard a mixed bag on LRMs, but since I don't often use them I won't give my opinion on it.

The basic jist, alot of people don't like the heat system and many think it won't change boating. I know I may get some anger when I say this, but I know some people have also suggested it; change the hardpoint system to a 'small' extent. Divide Energy weapons into 2 categories - Energy Weapons, and Heavy Energy Weapons (These include large lasers varieties and PPC varieties). Let's look at the Awesome. This mech is MEANT to be a PPC boat, it's design allows it. It has '3 heavy' energy slots and 1 normal slot. You can put normal energy weapons or heavy energy weapons in the heavy slots. A 'normal' slot CANNOT hold a heavy weapon. Let's look at the basic Stalker design. 2 large lasers, 4 medium lasers, 2 SRM launchers, 2 LRM launchers. For example, if I wanted to switch the large lasers for PPCs, yeah, I can do that. HOWEVER, if I wanted to put more PPCs in where the medium lasers are 'normal' energy points, you can't do that.

Why add a 'limit'? A ) It's only a minor restriction to the game's already VERY gracious hardpoint system. B ) This would OUTRIGHT prevent certain kinds of boat exploits with certain mechs. Unless that mech SPECIFICALLY is meant to have LOTS of big guns, then that's fine. If it's a mech that can have 'some', that's fine. But the idea is to prevent overkill, needless boating and needless alpha striking. This would make people THINK outside the box and actually make BALANCED builds based around this limitation. We don't need a PPC mech flavor of the month, I like mechs with variety, hence alot of the designs in Battletech and Mechwarrior lore.

Will do another post...

To a degree I agree with your idea and understand what your saying however......why are some mechs faster than others, why do some mechs have more armor than others ect.....because you have balance when you have a fast low armor mech vs a very slow heavily armored mech and so on. Plus people who group up can pick loadouts based on different strategies they wish to use and no matter what you do this will never change. The bigest problem is people crying that things are overpowered and nerfing everything in order to try to prevent certain builds but in reality all they are doing is forcing people to come up with alternative ways of accomplishing the same thing.

For example...right now people are using say 6ppc or 2AC 20 weapons for high pinpoint damage because that is the max they can do and others are using 6medium lasers......by placing these new restrictions people will switch their loadouts but they will still gear their mechs to be as powerful as possible for their play style, which I would say is the whole point of the game and is what makes it fun. Now instead of one loadout which does 40 pinpoint alpha they will have some setup that will only do 20 pinpoint alpha but the people on the other side are being reduced as well so really your only shifting the problem without actually fixing it.

Oh and besides what is the point of leveling up your mechs and purchasing modules and upgrades if you are either going to be forced into doing specific types of builds or if they continually nerf them every time you turn around.

[MisterFiveSeven]

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

Or the far simpler explanation that they wanted to curb high alpha boats.
I mean the folks that ran 6 PPC/LL/srm would simply have moved onto 6 LPL.

MisterFiveSeven, on 30 July 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

#2 Pairing pinpoint weapons together that are wildy different in range, duration, weapon type, etc. IS the definition of reflexive. This is not going to fix any future problems, it merely highlights the poor design choices that are going to continue being a problem until they are specifically addressed.

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

Or the far simpler explanation that they wanted to curb high alpha boats.
I mean the folks that ran 6 PPC/LL/srm would simply have moved onto 6 LPL.

From the guy that thinks I'M the dumb one.

PPC's are still the best weapon in the game /end any balance discussion that doesn't talk about PPC's specifically

Edited by MisterFiveSeven, 31 July 2013 - 04:21 AM.

[Viper69]

Janus Wealth, on 30 July 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

Can someone explain to me, why this will be implemented?

I wish I could say but it would call into question peoples lineage and evolutionary progression and probably get me in trouble.

But seriously. They cant figure out an effective cone of fire mechanic that kicks in on heat level nor do they want to lower the damage of all the weapons clinging to antequated TT numbers that caused them to double armor on mechs. So the root cause of all their issue is TT damage being applied more times in ten seconds than the game they are modeling from were designed. If say the PPCs damage were dropped to its TT damage/number of shots in ten seconds that would be a massive start. But no they want to keep adding arbitrary crap to their ever growing number of fixes that only fix symptoms not the cause. Glad these guys arent doctors they would prescribe advil for persistent migraines that were being caused by a brain tumor.