230 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Goose, on 30 July 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Funny: There's a couple of games where I was told by Betty I'd lost heatsinks, only all my HSs were internal to the engine …

Heatsinks that are added to the engine (275 or bigger engines) can be destroyed like regular heatsinks. So, if you had a Cent-A with a DHS in the 275 engine, that would help protect the 2 meds that are normally carried in the CT.

It would be appreciated if PGI would explain how crits work with respect to the engine HS, but that went unanswered.

[Bellarophon]

Every patch ruins this game more and more. About 8 people in my clan have already quit the game since they introduced heat scaling.(including me) But i read the patch notes, hoping they will remove it, but instead they make it worse. Listening to the vocal minority and making major game changes based on people whining about weapons is a bad idea and an easy way to ruin the game. It's not like there is even that many weapons to choose from to avoid heat scaling. It doesn't even make sense, how can firing 2 AC20s at the same time raise a giant metal walking tanks temperature to 97% of max, but if you wait .5 seconds apart doesn't raise it past 20%. Let people play their mechs the way they want.

More and more people are going to quit the game until the only player base left is the whiny noobs who think everything that they don't use is OP. Guess ill check back in 2 weeks and see if this game is still garbage. Thank god i didn't buy the founder or phoenix pack.

[MustrumRidcully]

Heat scale penalty keeps being a bad idea and nerfing builds that aren't even problematic.

Why were SRM boats overpowered back in the old days? Because SRMs did a lot of damage, even a lot more than they were intended to thanks to splash damage. Boating the best weapon is always a good idea, and it can be fixed by nerfing the weapon so it's not overpowered compared to the rest (or buffing the other weapons so they aren't underpowered)

Why were PPC boats overpowered? Pinpoint convergence and giant heat capacity allowing too many alpha strikes in a row so you could safely deliver deadly damage before overheating, and if you didn't - you're a sniper, you can get into cover and cool off.

The fix to that is dealing with the unhealthy combination of group fire and pinpoint convergence (and some of the systematic enablers, like high heat cap).

SRM or LRM boats don'T need to be forbidden from boating or group-firing since they don't deal pinpoint damage.
In fact, ideally no weapon should be forbidden from boating - you just need to address the synergy provided from group-fire+convergence.


The other ideas seem okay on first glance at least. Lowering pulse laser beam duration would make them more useful and competitive with regular lasers.
Lowering the ER LL heat is a good idea, since it's really not worth it, though I would suggest lowering its beam duration, too - it is really almost impossible to hold any target steady for a full second at 500+ meters.

It's a good idea to have the component damage also deal damage to the hit location itself, but I would suggest lowering the MG multipler on crits a bit now. A multiplier of 4-5 might be enough.

Though I would note that this will not actually make the crit system itself - as the game mechanical subsystem to take out individual items - any more important. It's just an "extra damage" system.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 30 July 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[Lonestar1771]

Suri Curume, on 30 July 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Imagine if they had a group of gamers numbering much greater than their entire employee count. Imagine if they could implement the XML changes, and then patch them into a large server environment where said group of gamers could test the new stuff out and give them appropriate feedback. In fact, I think I'm going to call this theoretical group of gamers "Beta testers" and this large server environment a "Beta trial".

HERESY!! There is no place in this world for such fantasy!

[Erata]

Bellarophon, on 30 July 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

Every patch ruins this game more and more. About 8 people in my clan have already quit the game since they introduced heat scaling.(including me) But i read the patch notes, hoping they will remove it, but instead they make it worse. Listening to the vocal minority and making major game changes based on people whining about weapons is a bad idea and an easy way to ruin the game. It's not like there is even that many weapons to choose from to avoid heat scaling. It doesn't even make sense, how can firing 2 AC20s at the same time raise a giant metal walking tanks temperature to 97% of max, but if you wait .5 seconds apart doesn't raise it past 20%. Let people play their mechs the way they want.

More and more people are going to quit the game until the only player base left is the whiny noobs who think everything that they don't use is OP. Guess ill check back in 2 weeks and see if this game is still garbage. Thank god i didn't buy the founder or phoenix pack.

It's going to be funny when the newbie base continues playing and starts crunching numbers, too. They'll come to the realization that many of the weapons are far below the curve and enter into the monoculture that is the long range meta, or whatever the meta is several patches from now.
Then, a new wave of newbies enters and accuses them of being a bunch of howling whiners with Cassandra-complexes. The newbies, just happy with the novelty of the game they picked up, fight direct evidence because it conflicts with their idea of fun.
"They're just elitsts", they say.
"No, we're just trying to help you understand! We just want to expand the game!" say the tryhards.
"But boat penalties solved the problems!" say the newbies.
"No they didn't, here's why!" exclaimed the tryhards.

And it went on'n'on.

[CygnusX7]

Current LPL range makes sense to me since its a little more than SRM's.

[Nulnoil]

Niko Snow, on 30 July 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

Tell us what you think of the latest Command Chair update on Weapon Balance

Why you ask about it after every patch, though you never react to feedback? Imitation of communication

[Team Leader]

Are you serious? Yes, decrease TTK. Even though people have been demanding the opposite for months now. Great idea Paul. Come on man, you can do better than this. Critical hits against internal structure help big weapons (AC20, PPCs, Gauss, AC10s) more than small ones (MG, LBX, Flamers). Unless you double internal structure, this will negatively affect the game. This could be helpful but you have to think, man!

[East Indy]

I'd like to hear more about the change to critical hits.

PPC heat increases are respectively 12% and 9%, which is pretty measured. We'll have to see how it affects gameplay long-term.

My only suggestion on medium and large pulse is to consider jettisoning canon's extra heat. They're heavier and shorter range: as a supplement to long-range load-outs, I would still choose the regular and ER large laser first, and regular medium lasers are still extremely convenient and efficient.

[One Medic Army]

Goose, on 30 July 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Funny: There's a couple of games where I was told by Betty I'd lost heatsinks, only all my HSs were internal to the engine …

My guess is that the extra heatsinks in the engine are counted as internal to the CT as far as the game is concerned, and the engine slots are just extra CT slots only available for heatsinks.

[Sable]

I believe they said they stick to a 2 week schedule in most cases to keep server stability at its highest. Paul said they were doing weapon balancing from her until launch. Just because not all the weapons he innitially mentioned are in this one doesn't mean they won't be in the next one. I'd only be annoyed if they weren't completed before launch. Once its launch if things are done then i'd say its fair to whine. but until then chill.

[Erata]

Team Leader, on 30 July 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Are you serious? Yes, decrease TTK. Even though people have been demanding the opposite for months now. Great idea Paul. Come on man, you can do better than this. Critical hits against internal structure help big weapons (AC20, PPCs, Gauss, AC10s) more than small ones (MG, LBX, Flamers). Unless you double internal structure, this will negatively affect the game. This could be helpful but you have to think, man!

This in advance of 12 v 12, too. Are you as excited as I am?

[PinCushion]

Kymlaar, on 30 July 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

This new heat system will damage the game in that an equation is needed in order to determine basic functionality of a mech. People won't understand the system, and will become frustrated with the game rather than giving it a chance. Between trial mechs and it being a complex game, the cost of entry in terms of patience is high. With our new heat scaling system, the cost has just increased due to frustration at a difficult system. That being said, I don't argue with the results of the system, just the implementation.

Weapons shouldn't generate magical heat unless there's a universal, understandable system in place for this. An energy-type system would help with this, with engines having a reservoir of energy that recharges fast, and incurs heat penalties if you go into an energy deficit. Different weapons should be given different energy values to fire.

My problem with the new heat scaling is that it isn't effectively communicated inside the game while I'm playing it. This is poison to newer players, because now they have to do a bunch of research into game mechanics rather than just look at a stat or tooltip. The information could easily be displayed in the weapon grouping section of the play screen with a sensible tooltip.

The scaling itself makes sense once it's explained in plain language.

Certain weapons are designed to be fired in groups of 2 (for example). If you fire them in groups of 3 or more you'll generate more heat than you would if you fired them separately. That's a fairly simple rule. The way they explained it to me was very confusing and I had to read it several times to figure out what they were really talking about and how it really worked.

Also, does it bother anyone else that the "Heat Efficiency" stat in the Mechlab is borderline meaningless?

[Dantiger]

nice to know that pulse lasers are getting a buff on the beam duration... now it needs faster cd time

[Arbalister]

Suri Curume, on 30 July 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Imagine if they had a group of gamers numbering much greater than their entire employee count. Imagine if they could implement the XML changes, and then patch them into a large server environment where said group of gamers could test the new stuff out and give them appropriate feedback. In fact, I think I'm going to call this theoretical group of gamers "Beta testers" and this large server environment a "Beta trial".

Imagine all the whining, crying and threats to cancel their orders and never come back and play, if they just went ahead and made changes without internal testing, and then had to revert the changes, if the changes altered someone's favorite build, or if they had to make subsequent adjustments of any sort. Imagine that these people would be called "forum posters."

This beta test stopped being about actually testing changes the moment they transitioned to open beta. Now it's not about a dedicated group of people welcoming changes, testing them, and providing feedback. Now it's all about criticizing every single change even before they are implemented. That's not testing.

[Sable Dove]

Coming next patch: Ineffective buffs to underpowered weapons, and now all weapons deal random (random!) bonus damage to internal structure.

"Convergence is bad because it makes the game too random."
"All weapons now deal random bonus damage to internal structure!"

Let's not forget, the devs think that changing the game so that players must balance damage output and heat efficiency is bad. Spending a lot of effort making it hard to use big alphas, but refusing to change the mechanics that force players to use the biggest alphas they can.

Suri Curume, on 30 July 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Imagine if they had a group of gamers numbering much greater than their entire employee count. Imagine if they could implement the XML changes, and then patch them into a large server environment where said group of gamers could test the new stuff out and give them appropriate feedback. In fact, I think I'm going to call this theoretical group of gamers "Beta testers" and this large server environment a "Beta trial".

Well now you're just making sense. We don't take kindly to folks who make sense 'round here.

[Kunae]

Arbalister, on 30 July 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

Imagine all the whining, crying and threats to cancel their orders and never come back and play, if they just went ahead and made changes without internal testing, and then had to revert the changes, if the changes altered someone's favorite build, or if they had to make subsequent adjustments of any sort. Imagine that these people would be called "forum posters." This beta test stopped being about actually testing changes the moment they transitioned to open beta. Now it's not about a dedicated group of people welcoming changes, testing them, and providing feedback. Now it's all about criticizing every single change even before they are implemented. That's not testing.

OB is release, for this arena-shooter with mech-skins. Whatever they choose to call it makes no difference.

They stopped really listening to feedback about the time they let founders in CB.

[Tsunamisan]

I like most the additions to this patch but i think the seismic should be 300 not 260 or refund all cbill in this module an lower the cost of the pilot skill it was worth the 6K 10K for first and 2nd rank but now with this nurf it is not I would pat 4K 6 K max for the current level of the module. plus seismic is not perfect if the mech moving slow or not at all it will not show on it so honestly i think it was better with a longer range than it has after this nurf they are so many ways to circumvent it.

[ackstorm]

Yay! Finally the ER LL will be reasonable to use instead of "Meh, just use a ER PPC instead"

Maybe large lasers will finally get some use instead of PPCs, PPCs, PPCs.

The PL's are going to sound even more like laser-machine-guns now, but this is just a reduction in time right - not of damage?

[Zyllos]

I do not understand this mechanic change at all...

Why do we need more damage being dealt to internal structure. It adds absolutely nothing to this game. Why do you keep moving away from actually fixing mechanics instead of developing new mechanics as bandaids?

And then when you do this, the community gets no reasoning on why this is happening.