198 replies to this topic

[phelancracken]

LOL! Want to balance the clans against the IS yet again. BV2 is the way to do it in TT and I suspect they will do something similar here. It works, follows the KISS method, and it's basically consistent. The IS will have a numbers advantage no matter what using the BV system or will have a massive size advantage.

Yet again, another thread saying the clans are over powered. Get over it IS. The clans were much more powerful, but numbers is an advantage all it's own. Think German versus Russians in WW2. Clans is germans and IS is russians. Same basic difference in tech, numbers, range and punch.

[OfTheDark]

How long would balancing be an issue anyway? I mean Clan tech will not likely be exclusive to the Clans forever. At some point the Devs will probably make it availble to everyone anyway.

My issue with that, though, is what happens when IS tech becomes obsolete...Use IS tech? Why? When I can go and drop $50 to upgrade every weapon I have to Clan tech and never go back to IS again...

[Striker1980]

Hopefully Clan tech should be a lot more expensive to maintain therefore making it tougher and less rewarding to use the superior, but vastly rarer/ more difficult to produce clan tech.

[Sychodemus]

Malsumis, on 12 June 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

I find it somewhat amusing that many of the TT/CBT players don't seem to have much to say on this suggestion. But when it comes to changing/modifying things like torso twist, weapon ranges, mech configurations, etc, these players seem to come out of the woodwork to shoot things down as they are not 100% canon/TT rules. I really hope the devs don't make everything 100% per canon/TT. There are a lot of suggestions on the forums that would make the game a bit more flavorful and fun.

What is there to say?

The faction with the superior technology needs to have their technology reduced to levels that makes their technology no longer superior?

Uh. No.

Also, see the hundred or so other threads on this topic for further explanations, rebuttals and eventual flaming and locks.

[GearBoxClock]

Sychodemus, on 12 June 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

What is there to say?

The faction with the superior technology needs to have their technology reduced to levels that makes their technology no longer superior?

Uh. No.

Also, see the hundred or so other threads on this topic for further explanations, rebuttals and eventual flaming and locks.

You realize that it's possible to make thing balanced, fun and technologically advanced without being out-and-out more powerful. As it stands, the only major weakness to the clans is a thin fluff restriction that is regularly ignored.

[Thoman Coston]

What problem?
MWO is not the first Mechwarrior game, the other MW games managed to balance Clan/IS, why should it be a problem today more than 10 years after MW4

[Sychodemus]

GearBoxClock, on 12 June 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

You realize that it's possible to make thing balanced, fun and technologically advanced without being out-and-out more powerful. As it stands, the only major weakness to the clans is a thin fluff restriction that is regularly ignored.

There is something known as over-balance and that sometimes the fact that something is superior is part of its identity within the setting. Things are not always fair or equal; in the context of games you have to have different levels or grades of quality to act as incentive. If everything is balanced and nothing is particularly better than anything else (especially when dealing with similar weapons) then you have nothing to work toward. The more aspects of the game that offer diversity and improvement, the greater the replay value. I know this can be a fine line.

I am not saying that MWO is gonna go one way or the other. I frankly have no idea.

The Clans are weak in so many ways it is a wonder that they even found their way to the Inner Sphere without getting lost or killing each other. They are a stagnant culture, they are outnumbered, outproduced, underfunded and short-sighted. Their very core principles are flawed and are contrary to their stated aims plus they underestimate everybody. Their technology while advanced does not compensate for their inherent disadvantage of being out numbered. All that before they are nerfed down to equality.

Anyway, as always, that is just my take on it.

[Karl Streiger]

Ha - got another idea - clans are outnumbered so a clan warrior has to fight to battles at once.

First the 10/12 clanser slaughtering the first 12 IS warriors they have to face. after that the IS respawn with a second mech or a second wave of 12 fresh IS warriors engage the clans.

Pro:
You start to understand why weapons with short of ammunition are a real problem
Contra:
the first wave will not be comfort with the idea of being cannon fodder.

At least thought of the day about Roll Warefare... for example when the first clans man in his Mad ***** arrived - he run that mech for the first time - no achievments here - while me in my battered Stalker have fought on maybe thousends of engagements - with a full and complete Roll Tree...when the battle is over maybe my Stalker hobble of the battlefield - but the clans man look back on a large burning pile of broken and expensive scrap - i will look forward for this moment

[gamesguy]

Taigen, on 12 June 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

What problem?
MWO is not the first Mechwarrior game, the other MW games managed to balance Clan/IS, why should it be a problem today more than 10 years after MW4

In no way is clan vs IS balanced in previous MW games.

In MW4 clan weapons were vastly superior in every possible way.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Sychodemus, on 12 June 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

There is something known as over-balance and that sometimes the fact that something is superior is part of its identity within the setting. Things are not always fair or equal; in the context of games you have to have different levels or grades of quality to act as incentive. If everything is balanced and nothing is particularly better than anything else (especially when dealing with similar weapons) then you have nothing to work toward. The more aspects of the game that offer diversity and improvement, the greater the replay value. I know this can be a fine line.

and plenty of other games walk this line a heck of a lot better than CBT ever did. In a video game, things have to stay pretty balanced simply because then the vast number of players stay mad at the other players and not the game. See if a players see or hear how one player group automagically gets the very best gear in the game for no particular reason, then players get mad at the game and its devs. On the flipside, if things are a fair fight, and players feel like they are dealt a fair fight and win/lose based purely on player skill, then they get mad at the other players for the loss.

The clans also don't actually add any new diversity in terms of pure numbers. Their equpiment is literally just IS tech +1, fighting them doesn't require radical changes to tactics, playing them does not require any new thinking. In fact, because clan tech has almost no downsides, it actually waters the game down more. Heat? no problem, range? no problem, role-based mechs? what are those!?

Sychodemus, on 12 June 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

The Clans are weak in so many ways it is a wonder that they even found their way to the Inner Sphere without getting lost or killing each other.

irrelevant to gameplay.

Sychodemus, on 12 June 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

They are a stagnant culture,

story, not gameplay.

Sychodemus, on 12 June 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

they are outnumbered, outproduced, underfunded and short-sighted.

story, not gameplay

Sychodemus, on 12 June 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

Their very core principles are flawed and are contrary to their stated aims plus they underestimate everybody.

story, not gameplay

Sychodemus, on 12 June 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

Their technology while advanced does not compensate for their inherent disadvantage of being out numbered. All that before they are nerfed down to equality.

story, not gameplay.

all of the above in terms of gameplay are meaningless. Half the fan base plays clans, they're not outnumbered on the actual servers and tabletops. Access to clantech will prolly be dictated by something akin to money, so grinding clan tech is a viable option ergo they will not be underfunded or outproduced. Being short-sighted only applies to the fictional clan characters, not clan players themselves.

So therefore, these 'inherent' disadvantages do not, and won't exist, making the argument against balancing clantech a hollow one.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 13 June 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[Jdee]

To be honest IMO weather Clan (who does have superior stats on mechs) to an IS/Star-Leaguage outfitted mech it will really come down to just a few factors 1) how good are you with your mech, 2) how good are your lancemates with their mechs, 3) how good is your coordination with each other, 4) how good is your opponent. If all things are equal the better weapons should take the round but not without loses, but remember on any given day any team can be taken out. Also remember in TT rules and even to some degree in the old mech games the NPC (non-player character) pilots had raised stats in their mechs not just better weapons in RL that is not true. I just want to know how do I get my dropship.

To me skill >weapon on a tonnage per tonnage mech.

Just my two cents

[gamesguy]

Jdee, on 13 June 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

To be honest IMO weather Clan (who does have superior stats on mechs) to an IS/Star-Leaguage outfitted mech it will really come down to just a few factors 1) how good are you with your mech, 2) how good are your lancemates with their mechs, 3) how good is your coordination with each other, 4) how good is your opponent. If all things are equal the better weapons should take the round but not without loses, but remember on any given day any team can be taken out. Also remember in TT rules and even to some degree in the old mech games the NPC (non-player character) pilots had raised stats in their mechs not just better weapons in RL that is not true. I just want to know how do I get my dropship.

To me skill >weapon on a tonnage per tonnage mech.

Just my two cents

Ok let's play a multiplayer game where my guns do 50% more damage than yours and have 50% more range and I have 20% more armor and run faster.

You are vastly understating how absurdly superior clan tech is. To illustrate the difference, in TT the Fire Moth D, a 20 ton light mech, has a higher battle value than a stock Atlas.

Edited by gamesguy, 13 June 2012 - 09:24 PM.

[Haakon Valravn]

I'm starting to feel like I'm in a time machine back to 1860s Japan, watching some samurai in a geisha house complain about how unfairly balanced the gaijin breach-loading percussion rifles are compared to our muzzle-loading matchlocks. They're faster, they have better range and accuracy, and they're more reliable! Stinky cow-eating, sheep hair-wearing barbarians....

[gamesguy]

Haakon Valravn, on 13 June 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

I'm starting to feel like I'm in a time machine back to 1860s Japan, watching some samurai in a geisha house complain about how unfairly balanced the gaijin breach-loading percussion rifles are compared to our muzzle-loading matchlocks. They're faster, they have better range and accuracy, and they're more reliable! Stinky cow-eating, sheep hair-wearing barbarians....

If 1860 Japan was a videogame whose main purpose is fun those complaints would be perfectly valid.

Are you a clanner? Do giant war robots exist in the real world? Or are you so delusional that you can't distinguish the difference between a fictional video game and real life?

Edited by gamesguy, 13 June 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Sychodemus, on 12 June 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

The Clans are weak in so many ways it is a wonder that they even found their way to the Inner Sphere without getting lost or killing each other. They are a stagnant culture, they are outnumbered, outproduced, underfunded and short-sighted. Their very core principles are flawed and are contrary to their stated aims plus they underestimate everybody. Their technology while advanced does not compensate for their inherent disadvantage of being out numbered. All that before they are nerfed down to equality.

Anyway, as always, that is just my take on it.

Thanks. Just got home from work. I needed that.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 14 June 2012 - 03:59 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

OfTheDark, on 12 June 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

How long would balancing be an issue anyway? I mean Clan tech will not likely be exclusive to the Clans forever. At some point the Devs will probably make it availble to everyone anyway.

I wouldn't put my bet on that.

[Axelian]

I am actually disappointed to hear that Clans will be included.

[Karl Streiger]

Axelian, on 14 June 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

I am actually disappointed to hear that Clans will be included.

It is a logical clue - but do we have a official confirmation?

Edited by Karl Streiger, 14 June 2012 - 05:05 AM.

[Threat Doc]

Allow the Clans to be PvE in MWO, period. That's what I think.

[Sychodemus]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 13 June 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

....irrelevant to gameplay.
story, not gameplay.....

I think people confuse roleplaying with story too easily. They are are not necessarily the same thing. Likewise gameplay is not the same thing as game mechanics. When I say story, I mean story - background, setting, intent and literary logic (aka internal consistency.) When I say gameplay, I mean gameplay - how the game experience is delivered including fairness (not balance) and applicability.

I stand by my statements. I do so because I do not believe that there has to be a disconnect between story and gameplay. Others disagree and that is fine (it's been that way for a very long time.) It all depends on your perspective. From my point of view, gameplay is the culmination of numerous factors which often include story/fluff. One may be less tangible than the other but it does not make it invalid in the overall scheme of things. In the case of my claims about Clan weaknesses, they are based on personal experience and are supported by the story. While I did not explain how they can work in a gameplay sense, they most certainly can be applied to the game. TT has done it and a computer game can, too.

Others are talking purely game mechanics (be it TT or video game shooters) but they should still have to determine - before stats are created - what the basis for the different weapons is. What source do they cite when creating the stats? Somehow, somewhere, somebody sets the standard - usually in the form of a setting bible/codex. MWO chose Battletech.

A large portion of players will flock to whatever is the best, regardless of story considerations. In BT, Clans have better technology, but not so much better that it makes them undefeatable. In the case of MWO, Clan tech is still going to be the best tech available, but this can be offset by applying reasonable access restrictions. What those restrictions are going to be, I don't know. But I am reasonably confidant that it will not involve reduction in Clan power because their stated goal is to emulate BT as much as possible.

Personally, I approach the topic from a positive mindset; however much more powerful the Clans are doesn't matter (within reason, of course.) There will be ways to beat them. Even if their players use the exact same tactics as the IS ones, the technology difference will be offset by restrictions that will probably not involve the mechanics of the weapons.

But as always, that is just how I see it. Others will come at it with a different mindset. We will all just have to wait and see,

Edited by Sychodemus, 14 June 2012 - 05:18 AM.