283 replies to this topic

[Krivvan]

Gremlich Johns, on 02 August 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

PGI needs to make up its mind whether MW:O is a Mech sim or a shooter.

If it is determined to be a shooter, then short shelf life.

What segment of the player population is PGI going for? I'm confused.

There's no functional and clearly defined difference. Previous Mechwarriors had 3PV, were they shooters or sims?

Personally I think they'd have a lot more success as a shooter with a few sim elements. Few people here actually want something that's truly sim. You can't even really have a sim game for something that doesn't (and can't) exist.

Edited by Krivvan, 02 August 2013 - 09:21 PM.

[Hotthedd]

Ngamok, on 02 August 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

And Seismic is the same thing. I see the ping over the hill but I can't target it. Yes, there is an Awesome over there. Guess what, he knows where the Atlas or soemthing is with the blinking red light as well.

Seismic needs re-working, but the information given in 3PV is MUCH more detailed.
With seismic (an expensive module), you may know that there are a couple of enemy mechs over the next ridge. With 3PV you can tell exactly WHAT enemy mechs are over the next ridge.

[Prezimonto]

Sure, but combined with the wealth of other information available I still think seismic + better aim + map awareness + mech target damage information will beat out the very localized advantage of 3PV in all but the tightest of fights and/or very limited situation corner peaking(given seismic alone tells you enough to back away or engage.

If you make 3PV a destructible module for "non-trainee" accounts it comes with so many drawbacks I think few will preferentially roll with it over better modules, once they unlock several modules. On top of that you can then rob someone of the advantage in the match with some careful aim, it can give away their position, it eats a module slot, and there's the 0.5s scope in time between vision modes.

Add to that the fact that they didn't just cheese the situation with an invisible camera, but explain the ability with technology similar to other (UAV) destructible tech already in the game and I think this would make for a wonderful fit. Something that does benefit new players heavily, and can be used by experienced players only with a lot of risk for at best moderate reward.

Edited by Prezimonto, 03 August 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Prezimonto, on 03 August 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

Sure, but combined with the wealth of other information available I still think seismic + better aim + map awareness + mech target damage information will beat out the very localized advantage of 3PV in all but the tightest of fights and/or very limited situation corner peaking(given seismic alone tells you enough to back away or engage.

If you make 3PV a destructible module for "non-trainee" accounts it comes with so many drawbacks I think few will preferentially roll with it over better modules, once they unlock several modules. On top of that you can then rob someone of the advantage in the match with some careful aim, it can give away their position, it eats a module slot, and there's the 0.5s scope in time between vision modes.

Add to that the fact that they didn't just cheese the situation with an invisible camera, but explain the ability with technology similar to other (UAV) destructible tech already in the game and I think this would make for a wonderful fit. Something that does benefit new players heavily, and can be used by experienced players only with a lot of risk for at best moderate reward.

The risk is minimal compared to the reward. Nobody is going to play an entire match in 3PV the way it is implemented, sure, but the fact that it is a toggle makes it too easy to get the benefits of both with virtually no downside.

Add to the fact that it does NOT help new players orientate their torso to their legs in bigger mechs, so one of the stated reasons for even having 3PV is debunked. (I really never got the whole concept of torso/leg orientation being "too hard" anyway) but orientation is something that could have been handled by a playable tutorial.

No, after seeing and playing with the 3PV option it is clear to me that this game will always defer to the easy mode crowd at the expense of those of us who wanted and were promised a thinking person's tactical sim/shooter.

[Prezimonto]

I disagree strongly that the risk is negligible if the remote can be destroyed and can give away your position.

I also disagree that it won't help new players. It's much easier to understand your relative direction vs. "turret" with the wider point of view of the environment, and as someone who's played with kids and my wife (neither of whom had spent much time with shooters) a cockpit view with a turret is disorienting, particularly when paired with a keyboard and mouse (and most people won't invest if a joystick if they're not already pretty hard core gamers). I wouldn't, however, mind if the camera was a little lower, further back, and slightly tighter field of view.

Think about it like this: the advantage gained isn't really any different than the advantage gained from good use of zoom, heat vision, night vision, or seismic AND you have to give up access to so much else. I guess for me that's good enough that I don't care if people with the 3PV mode... good players in 1PV will wipe the floor with them.

Edited by Prezimonto, 03 August 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Prezimonto, on 03 August 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

I disagree strongly that the risk is negligible if the remote can be destroyed and can give away your position.

I also disagree that it won't help new players. It's much easier to understand your relative direction vs. "turret" with the wider point of view of the environment, and as someone who's played with kids and my wife (neither of whom had spent much time with shooters) a cockpit view with a turret is disorienting, particularly when paired with a keyboard and mouse (and most people won't invest if a joystick if they're not already pretty hard core gamers).

Think about it like this: the advantage gained isn't really any different than the advantage gained from good use of zoom, heat vision, night vision, or seismic AND you have to give up access to so much else. I guess for me that's good enough that I don't care if people with the 3PV mode... good players in 1PV will wipe the floor with them.

It does not give away your position any more than physically spotting the enemy does, as a matter of fact it CONCEALS vital information such as your chassis, and if targeted, your loadout.

On bigger mechs, you cannot see your legs, so there is NO help with the torso/leg orientation.

The advantage gained is more than what you get from zoom, heat vision, night vision, and seismic. AND it is a toggle function, so any minor disadvantages are temporary at worst. You do not have to give up anything for more than a few seconds, and even then you are under protective cover for those few seconds.

Good players will use 3PV to such an advantage that other good players will be forced to also use it JUST TO COMPETE. For those of us who were attracted to the sim aspect of the game, it ruins the experience.

[Julius Septim]

THERE IS NO FREAKIN ADVANTAGE WHEN THEY DO IT RIGHT!!!!!

NO u can´t (or should not see a enemy Mech behind a Hill in 3PV becaaaaaause your Pilot doesnt have Line of sight why should you?
NO you can´t see a Mech behind you becaaaauuuuseeee your Pilot doesnt have a Line of sight.

and so on...

But do i really expect PGI Implement it right? Mmmmmh no i dont....


Ps: And i repeat ... A Waste of time they should spend on more important "Features"
Why do i even try to be logical......

Edited by The Man of Steel, 03 August 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Mystere]

Huge, on 01 August 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Welp just tried it.

The death of the simulator game is complete. There is massive massive field of vision increase. Aside from the loss of the minimap. You have all relevant information and cursor to aim with.

RIP 1PV

Did you seriously try and give it a shot? Or did you just "try" it?

[Ngamok]

Hotthedd, on 03 August 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

It does not give away your position any more than physically spotting the enemy does, as a matter of fact it CONCEALS vital information such as your chassis, and if targeted, your loadout.

On bigger mechs, you cannot see your legs, so there is NO help with the torso/leg orientation.

The advantage gained is more than what you get from zoom, heat vision, night vision, and seismic. AND it is a toggle function, so any minor disadvantages are temporary at worst. You do not have to give up anything for more than a few seconds, and even then you are under protective cover for those few seconds.

Good players will use 3PV to such an advantage that other good players will be forced to also use it JUST TO COMPETE. For those of us who were attracted to the sim aspect of the game, it ruins the experience.

Then you will all be playing Hardcore mode and not even have to worry about it. What's the big deal. Like I said before, if so many people are opposed to it, then you will have lots of people to paly with. I'll more than likely be there too.

Also, will 3PV be popular? Who knows. All I know in MW2, there was a 3PV TDM option and it only had like 200-300 people playing whereas 1PV TDM had 10x more people.

Edited by Ngamok, 03 August 2013 - 09:48 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Ngamok, on 03 August 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Then you will all be playing Hardcore mode and not even have to worry about it. What's the big deal. Like I said before, if so many people are opposed to it, then you will have lots of people to paly with. I'll more than likely be there too.

Also, will 3PV be popular? Who knows. All I know in MW2, there was a 3PV TDM option and it only had like 200-300 people playing whereas 1PV TDM had 10x more people.

Quite true. Until they decide to merge the queues because separate queues were "their position at the time".

[Prezimonto]

This is why I'm arguing for even more limitations like the ability to destroy the 3PV UAV and for making it a module. I'm certain that the queue's will be merged eventually, and I figure why not look reality in the face and make the most of it that I can.

And, no, 3PV doesn't give you more advantage than heat/night on low visibility or seismic. It's purely situational because you have to be looking in the direction to spot someone around a corner. Seismic is 360°. Heat/night vision don't have a zoom in pause, and allow you to see when you couldn't. And you can benefit from all of them at one time in 1PV, you lose seismic in 3PV.

At their core, each of them allows you to alter your perception of your surroundings to your advantage, and 3PV comes with more drawbacks than any of the others including the wonky aiming.

While I agree that it would be nice to see the top edge of the legs (pull the camera down and back while tightening up the field the view on most mechs). It IS MUCH easier to see where you're going vs. where you're aiming 3PV. You get the secondary information of your surroundings much more clearly. It's called contextual information.

[Julius Septim]

Muricans.. total absence of logic in MMO´s... done with that now...

[Hotthedd]

Prezimonto, on 03 August 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

This is why I'm arguing for even more limitations like the ability to destroy the 3PV UAV and for making it a module. I'm certain that the queue's will be merged eventually, and I figure why not look reality in the face and make the most of it that I can.

And, no, 3PV doesn't give you more advantage than heat/night on low visibility or seismic. It's purely situational because you have to be looking in the direction to spot someone around a corner. Seismic is 360°. Heat/night vision don't have a zoom in pause, and allow you to see when you couldn't. And you can benefit from all of them at one time in 1PV, you lose seismic in 3PV.

At their core, each of them allows you to alter your perception of your surroundings to your advantage, and 3PV comes with more drawbacks than any of the others including the wonky aiming.

While I agree that it would be nice to see the top edge of the legs (pull the camera down and back while tightening up the field the view on most mechs). It IS MUCH easier to see where you're going vs. where you're aiming 3PV. You get the secondary information of your surroundings much more clearly. It's called contextual information.

We will agree to disagree, then. Seismic needs to be tuned, but even now it does not tell you WHAT mechs are over the ridge/ around the corner. That is incredibly useful information.

Heat and Night visions (as well as zoom) have their own limitations, and are only useful in certain situations. There is no situation where getting a larger field of view while completely protected is not clearly better.

When you add in the ability to switch back to 1PV for fighting, the ONLY disadvantage goes away. If you can remember where your F4 key is, there is no downside whatsoever.

There is still hope that they will never merge the queues, so I will not give up on that fight. If I was certain that the queues will be merged, I would have already uninstalled.

[Lyoto Machida]

Tabrias07, on 01 August 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

How about this?

Not really an advantage...you would have known about that mech anyways as soon as you crested the ridge and the 2PPC/Gauss slammed into your CT.

[Julius Septim]

As i said "IF they do it right"

thats not right at all... you see more then your Pilot should see so its crap!

Easy mode for Arcade kiddies = 3PV gg PGI.......................

Edited by The Man of Steel, 03 August 2013 - 08:17 PM.

[Prezimonto]

Hotthedd, on 03 August 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

We will agree to disagree, then. Seismic needs to be tuned, but even now it does not tell you WHAT mechs are over the ridge/ around the corner. That is incredibly useful information.

Heat and Night visions (as well as zoom) have their own limitations, and are only useful in certain situations. There is no situation where getting a larger field of view while completely protected is not clearly better.

When you add in the ability to switch back to 1PV for fighting, the ONLY disadvantage goes away. If you can remember where your F4 key is, there is no downside whatsoever.

There is still hope that they will never merge the queues, so I will not give up on that fight. If I was certain that the queues will be merged, I would have already uninstalled.

Seismic gives you 360° awareness which is powerful 3PV gives you, what?, an extra ~20°degrees of arc on either side of your normal field of view? Enough to shallowly peek around corners, but not over hills or behind.

Being able to switch and but having a delay is a pretty big hindrance(who wants to have that extra 0.5 second delay before you can start moving/torso twisting if that camera is destroyed in a tight melee), if the camera could be destoyed 3PV would be extremely weak for experienced players... a slightly better version of siesmic that only covers a total of ~40° more that you can't already see in 1PV instead of 360° and through terrian.

Again, I think it's on par with other modules/vision modes, and actually weaker then them if the camera can be destroyed since it's highly risky to use it during an actual fight. And if it's a module... then you have to give up some other advantage.

I still think it would be balanced under those conditions, to actually weaker than seismic... a load out specific module like target info gathering/increased lock times.

I'm also running the assumption that it will be merged into all queues eventually and want to see further limitations put on it. I don't know how anyone can think that won't happen, when splitting queues is bad for the game in general. Also when PGI has broken so many, many promises in the past. Don't even being to fool yourself that they'll hesitate to break this one if they think it will keep their queue lines healthy just to appease the few thousand hardcore players... they'll just open up another can of "Special Clan Mech's Sale of the Year" and slip this under the door at the same time they offer up a set of beloved mechs. Thereby trapping most players into spending more money while also pushing an unloved idea to servers for the good of the game.

[Hotthedd]

Prezimonto, on 04 August 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Seismic gives you 360° awareness which is powerful 3PV gives you, what?, an extra ~20°degrees of arc on either side of your normal field of view? Enough to shallowly peek around corners, but not over hills or behind.

The 3PV camera rotates with the mech. If you are in cover, all you need to do is pop your drone and turn your torso for 360 degrees of third person view. And YES you CAN see over hills.

Prezimonto, on 04 August 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Being able to switch and but having a delay is a pretty big hindrance(who wants to have that extra 0.5 second delay before you can start moving/torso twisting if that camera is destroyed in a tight melee), if the camera could be destoyed 3PV would be extremely weak for experienced players... a slightly better version of siesmic that only covers a total of ~40° more that you can't already see in 1PV instead of 360° and through terrian.

No good players will be using 3PV in close quarters combat. That is one of the things that makes 3PV a terrible idea. It can be toggled off when the situation demands it. There are no downsides.

Prezimonto, on 04 August 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Again, I think it's on par with other modules/vision modes, and actually weaker then them if the camera can be destroyed since it's highly risky to use it during an actual fight. And if it's a module... then you have to give up some other advantage.

Again, no one will use it during an actual fight, so that point is moot. Making it a module would be a step in the right direction, BUT 3PV was forced on us as a tool to help new players. How does a new player obtain a module? If they make it a module, then they must have been lying to us all along.

Prezimonto, on 04 August 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

I'm also running the assumption that it will be merged into all queues eventually and want to see further limitations put on it. I don't know how anyone can think that won't happen, when splitting queues is bad for the game in general. Also when PGI has broken so many, many promises in the past. Don't even being to fool yourself that they'll hesitate to break this one if they think it will keep their queue lines healthy just to appease the few thousand hardcore players... they'll just open up another can of "Special Clan Mech's Sale of the Year" and slip this under the door at the same time they offer up a set of beloved mechs. Thereby trapping most players into spending more money while also pushing an unloved idea to servers for the good of the game.

How many times do you think that ploy will actually work? IMO that is a business model doomed to failure.

[SinJinn]

Ok, I have seen it now and understand people's concerns. A field of vision like this is such an extreme advantage that anyone playing from 1PV would suffer for playing the game as it was intended to be played.

It is very pretty and should be offered but at an extreme cost to the pilot. They get zero information. No heat, targeting, mini map, compass, weapons.... all but cross hairs are gone. If you want info... get in your bloody mech and pilot it from the cockpit where your displays are!

**Suggestion: make having "limited" display info in 3PV a function of weight bearing scout exclusive and command modules. ***

[SinJinn]

^^^^^^HEY LOOK^^^^^^

Something constructive!

[Skye Storm]

QUICK EVERYONE LIKE IT THEY MAY FIND IT USEFUL!!!