402 replies to this topic

[DemonRaziel]

0okami, on 06 August 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

*Sniff* *Sniff*
I smell a lightpilot here.

So your power of scent allows you to identify what 'Mechs I pilot (I am indeed mostly a light pilot, but have pretty much everything in my 'Mechbays) yet totally fails to notice the crapload of srcasm present in my post aimed at the "ghost heat boating solution" introduced recently?

PS: Brawling an assault is no problem, brawling anything with high pinpoint alpha and a good aim (or just pure luck) is what kills low armor 'Mechs in an instant.

0okami, on 06 August 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

Honestly though I hate seeing 4+ heavies or 4+ assaults in match after match

Yeah, this is what I also see as a problem. Drops with no Lights or Mediums, or a single sub-60t odd man are not that uncommon either. But really, my suggestion above is not to be taken seriously

Edited by DemonRaziel, 06 August 2013 - 04:59 AM.

[Sasha Volkova]

DemonRaziel, on 06 August 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

So your power of scent allows you to identify what 'Mechs I pilot (I am indeed mostly a light pilot, but have pretty much everything in my 'Mechbays) yet totally fails to notice the crapload of srcasm present in my post aimed at the "ghost heat boating solution" introduced recently?

My nose is able to detect the smell of preferred mech, not the amount of sarcasm posted on the internet.
I am afraid that is something no nose could detect.
I do however detect a small amount of hostility in your post and that is something I would prefer you avoided in the future.
I will put it gently this time only since I dont want a poo-flinging contest - lets leave that to the more professional and more than adequate monkeys on this forum.

DemonRaziel, on 06 August 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

PS: Brawling an assault is no problem, brawling anything with high pinpoint alpha and a good aim (or just pure luck) is what kills low armor 'Mechs in an instant.

Well brawling at all in a light is still not something you should be able to get away with easily.
So if you have issues with it most of the time, then everything seems to be pretty balanced and working as intended.

DemonRaziel, on 06 August 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

Yeah, this is what I also see as a problem. Drops with no Lights or Mediums, or a single sub-60t odd man are not that uncommon either. But really, my suggestion above is not to be taken seriously

And neither it shall.
Atleast on my behalf.

Edited by 0okami, 06 August 2013 - 05:45 AM.

[TexAce]

This will be a beautiful zombie...me likey

[DemonRaziel]

0okami, on 06 August 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

My nose is able to detect the smell of preferred mech, not the amount of sarcasm posted on the internet.
I am afraid that is something no nose could detect.
I do however detect a small amount of hostility in your post and that is something I would prefer you avoided in the future.
I will put it gently this time only since I dont want a poo-flinging contest - lets leave that to the more professional and more than adequate monkeys on this forum.

Your detection skills fail you again, I fear I really did not intend any hostility, merely retained the sarcasm from my previous post.

Apologies, if it was seen as such, but it was a misunderstanding, really.

But let's be fair to each other...

0okami, on 06 August 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

*Sniff* *Sniff*
I smell a lightpilot here.
I can smell the frustration from being unable to brawl an assault like in the good old lag days.

I guess we are both guilty as charged with (unitended) hostility in this discussion.

Let's not derail this thread any more though, the poor Kintaro doesn't deserve that. I'll reserve my comments on the new 55tonner until after it's out, I'll just say that it's a good thing we are getting a 'Mech ligher than Heavy, even if it's the heaviest Medium out there...

Now what about the Flea? MASC still an issue, I know... Well then give us a Firestarter, or a Firely, perhaps? At least give us a tournament aimed at Light mechs, if nothing else

[Sasha Volkova]

DemonRaziel, on 06 August 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

Your detection skills fail you again, I fear I really did not intend any hostility, merely retained the sarcasm from my previous post.

Apologies, if it was seen as such, but it was a misunderstanding, really.

But let's be fair to each other...



I guess we are both guilty as charged with (unitended) hostility in this discussion.

Let's not derail this thread any more though, the poor Kintaro doesn't deserve that. I'll reserve my comments on the new 55tonner until after it's out, I'll just say that it's a good thing we are getting a 'Mech ligher than Heavy, even if it's the heaviest Medium out there...

Now what about the Flea? MASC still an issue, I know... Well then give us a Firestarter, or a Firely, perhaps? At least give us a tournament aimed at Light mechs, if nothing else

Really though, lay off the passive agressive tones.
It is getting dull.
For now it seems we can find no common ground between us and that we will have to settle with disagreeing.
I will keep this in the back of my mind and try to steer clear of you in the future to avoid situations such as this again as they are beneficial to noone and only serves to pollute the already toxic community on this forum.

[Dawnstealer]

Genewen, on 05 August 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

I have seen nothing of the sort and I highly doubt you could link a single serious post stating that.

Really?

Okay:

Ocilfa, on 01 August 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

Ugh, nowagger in the mwo version...

Cache, on 01 August 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Yup.

The head bugs me the most. Everyone can call it an ugly chimp, but it had character. Looks like a generic trooper now.

Justy Starflare, on 01 August 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

Kewl looking art work but its no kintaro.

Mister Blastman, on 01 August 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

That's not a Kintaro, THIS is a Kintaro!

Battle Hawk, on 01 August 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

It's to bad it lost the monkey look of the original graphics... I think some of the MWO mechs are loosing some of their iconic looks.

Battle Hawk, on 01 August 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

No... I would like them to look as close to the original mech as they can...

Cache, on 02 August 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

When the original artwork is bad, you take this:



...and turn it into this:



...where it is instantly recognizable because a vast majority of the original details are present, thus preserving the uniqueness of the design. You don't turn it into a boring cookie-cutter design just to make it look more military.

Cache, on 02 August 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Curves have nothing to do with the problem. Most of the changes can be done with the textures. A few are actual model changes.

Let's start with the head. We were given a Spartan helmet or Doom space marine--period. Want to keep the original flavor without rounding it, add this:
(1) Face grill. The two put on either side of the head don't cut it, and we know they're possible to do, yet we get the minimal homage that is there.
(2) "Ears". Did the face grill and these get merged into those bits on either side of the head? Why?
(3) "Horns". There is one knot on the head now, and it's in the center. Why not two in the same location as the original, then put the antenna on them?
(4) Armor seam. There should be one seam going down the center of the head. This is not a problem to add.

][/spoiler]

Arms: The wiry upper arms are not there. A large armor panel was added to the upper arms to beef them up. The rings are the only part vaguely recognizable. I'm going to assume the renders showing the RA lasers stacked rather than side-to-side are an error that will be fixed. Lowers are good otherwise.

Torso: I can see the homage to the CT curves (blue line). The torso is squished a bit, along with the head.
(1) Lines to either side of the laser are there. Good.
(2) Laser... looks raised a little but that's more the upper part of the torso being squished down. Good.
(3) Vent is there, mostly. Good.
(4) Integrated 'rib' vents are gone and tacked on as a 'scoops'. Not good. Go back to them as an internal part of the side torso, and narrow the sides a little.

Spoiler

Legs:
(1) Hip skirts are there, just minimized to the extreme. I would assume to allow arm movement, but the arms don't bend down that low. Make them larger.
(2) The 'dangly bits' shouldn't be dangly. I'm assuming they are now tie-downs for transport. In the original they are wedge shaped pieces pointing forward. No curves involved, no limb clearance issues.
(3) Upper leg armor panels are completely different. You don't need curves to mimic the horizontal lines of the original.
(4) Knees are good but lower leg armor panels are completely different. Again, you don't need curves to mimic the original.
(5) The claws on the toes don't have to stand out. The 'toenails' we were given could run to the top of the toe, and be added to the inner and outer foot.

Spoiler

[Steelgrave]

I think some people like the original kintaro art exactly because it was ugly.

It gives them a sense of kinship.

[GingerBang]

Adridos, on 01 August 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Nobody likes using round surfaces. It is a pain in the *** for millitary to replace/fix up and it adds too many polygons to the mech model, resulting in overally worse quality (because they have to spare those polygons somewhere else).

actually most tanks have rounded turrets IRL. Just saying. Round surfaces are actually SUPER common in the military because they deflect bullets and reduce aerial drag.

Cache, on 02 August 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Curves have nothing to do with the problem. Most of the changes can be done with the textures. A few are actual model changes.

Let's start with the head. We were given a Spartan helmet or Doom space marine--period. Want to keep the original flavor without rounding it, add this:
(1) Face grill. The two put on either side of the head don't cut it, and we know they're possible to do, yet we get the minimal homage that is there.
(2) "Ears". Did the face grill and these get merged into those bits on either side of the head? Why?
(3) "Horns". There is one knot on the head now, and it's in the center. Why not two in the same location as the original, then put the antenna on them?
(4) Armor seam. There should be one seam going down the center of the head. This is not a problem to add.

Spoiler

Arms: The wiry upper arms are not there. A large armor panel was added to the upper arms to beef them up. The rings are the only part vaguely recognizable. I'm going to assume the renders showing the RA lasers stacked rather than side-to-side are an error that will be fixed. Lowers are good otherwise.

Torso: I can see the homage to the CT curves (blue line). The torso is squished a bit, along with the head.
(1) Lines to either side of the laser are there. Good.
(2) Laser... looks raised a little but that's more the upper part of the torso being squished down. Good.
(3) Vent is there, mostly. Good.
(4) Integrated 'rib' vents are gone and tacked on as a 'scoops'. Not good. Go back to them as an internal part of the side torso, and narrow the sides a little.

Spoiler

Legs:
(1) Hip skirts are there, just minimized to the extreme. I would assume to allow arm movement, but the arms don't bend down that low. Make them larger.
(2) The 'dangly bits' shouldn't be dangly. I'm assuming they are now tie-downs for transport. In the original they are wedge shaped pieces pointing forward. No curves involved, no limb clearance issues.
(3) Upper leg armor panels are completely different. You don't need curves to mimic the horizontal lines of the original.
(4) Knees are good but lower leg armor panels are completely different. Again, you don't need curves to mimic the original.
(5) The claws on the toes don't have to stand out. The 'toenails' we were given could run to the top of the toe, and be added to the inner and outer foot.

Spoiler

If PGI wasn't so busy chasing away new users with crappy heat systems. Maybe PGI would stop and realize crap like this is why actually Mechwarrior/Battletech fans are leaving in droves. You can't even design mechs right, let alone fan favorites.

Edited by GingerBang, 06 August 2013 - 10:02 AM.

[Ngamok]

Thorn Hallis, on 05 August 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

Now if you could just find a way to make anything below assault more popular...

Yes, take speed tweak away from Heavies and Assaults. Replace it with a new efficiency that makes sense for a heavier mech. People who play the slow heavies and assaults will either go for the faster ones or make fast mediums popular again.

[Ngamok]

Xeno Phalcon, on 06 August 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

I don't think even PGI would use something that asinine and convoluted, a battle value or tonnage limit also are far less ludicrous.

I can see it now, NO ONE FIRE ANYTHING IM GOING TO ALPHA THIS GUY! *atlas on opposite side of the map alphas too, both explode.*

Yup, they ened tonnage limits otherwise people will still, for the most part, play heavies and assaults more ofthen than not. People have been running in light groups now for the past week+ going for caps. Last night I ran into a few of them while me and a few others were in our HBKs (4J for me trying to master it, other was a 4P and 4SP for the other 2 guys) to counter them.

[mack sabbath]

Skadi, on 01 August 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

To all the people semi excited about this mech:
Its the highest tonnage for its weight class, which meens its going to be the size of a assault and die in seconds.

And it relies on SRMs which, with the new heat patch, will now have to be chain fired, making insta-death even more likely.

[Koniving]

Tharkan Stuermer, on 01 August 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

The KTO sin't exactly a Snake Mech, but a Star League design. The Dracs got some KTOs from ComStar, though, but they had to purchase Rasalhaague in exchange for them.

Could you tell me more on the Kintaro's history? Though I've yet to put a video up on it I did the Hunchback's history, and I'm doing the same with the other mechs. I can't seem to find much on the Kintaro beyond Sarna.

[Strum Wealh]

Koniving, on 06 August 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

Could you tell me more on the Kintaro's history? Though I've yet to put a video up on it I did the Hunchback's history, and I'm doing the same with the other mechs. I can't seem to find much on the Kintaro beyond Sarna.

The text on this page is identical to that on page 32 of TRO 2750, in which the Kintaro originally made its debut.

From the first section:
"The Kintaro is a rare example of a 'Mech designed around a weapon system, the Narc Missile Beacon. The 'Mech was to incorporate the Narc system, with ample firepower to take advantage of any hit achieved by the Narc pods. The 'Mech would be mainly an offensive weapon, able to work with a variety of other 'Mechs, but also required to carry maximum armor. The primary mission of the new 'Mech was to deliver the Narc pods to the target and let its lancemates provide the punishment. In 2587, the Quartermaster Command approved the General Mechanics Kintaro design.

Primarily a missile-carrier, the Kintaro packs a considerable punch. It is not a raider, however. Though it carries ample supplies for a single engagement, it is almost constantly in need of resupply. As any fight wears on, the effectiveness of the Kintaro decreases geometrically. Once the Narc Pods are gone, the Kintaro usually begins to look for a way out of the fighting."

[M4L4R3K]

I recommend not buying Golden Boy ladies and gents, at least not right now.

A big part of its front CT is in the back and group fired missiles fire in chain,yes even when I open the missile pods. Is it a bug or intended?

[Koniving]

M4L4R3K, on 06 August 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

I recommend not buying Golden Boy ladies and gents, at least not right now.

A big part of its front CT is in the back and group fired missiles fire in chain,yes even when I open the missile pods. Is it a bug or intended?

I don't know anything about the CT tidbit, but this basically means if you allocate more armor to the front you also protect your back.

Some missile pods, namely the CT, have only 2 or 4 tubes on the different Kintaros. Looks like space for 4 but I can't see inside them within the mechbay. Others also have limits. Meanwhile one of the arm ports can do up to 20 tubes (LRM 20 anyone?) while another does 10. So I believe that is intended. I figure it's to limit the alpha potential. This also causes the heat to spike up in "parts" rather than completely.

However according to Smurfy this is not the case with the Golden Boy as most bays are limited to 20 or 15 tubes, except the CT (10 and 5? This sounds like a mistake as most others are limited to 1 tube or 6). I have the feeling the CT launcher used by the first SRM is going to use the 5 tube launcher, which means "5 + 1."

Apparently unlike the other similar Kintaro (which also has 5 missiles but 2 energy), the Golden Boy is intended to become an LRM platform. The similar Kintaro could never become an effective LRM platform (all tubes limited to 6 or less). Has me quite curious.

I recommend checking them out in here. http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab

On a side note, doing quirks with the missile tubes is actually an interesting way of limiting mechs to certain roles, diversifying them even if you can't make identical builds. This comes at a problem, though, as smaller than required tube counts such as on the Victor 9K (or S? Can't recall) with the 3 missile ports. One launcher has 10 tubes, the second has 5 tubes, and the last one has 2 tubes. The second and third launchers have almost no missile spread, resulting in almost 100% CT and cockpit hits with LRMs.

Strum Wealh, on 06 August 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

The text on this page is identical to that on page 32 of TRO 2750, in which the Kintaro originally made its debut.

From the first section:
"The Kintaro is a rare example of a 'Mech designed around a weapon system, the Narc Missile Beacon. The 'Mech was to incorporate the Narc system, with ample firepower to take advantage of any hit achieved by the Narc pods. The 'Mech would be mainly an offensive weapon, able to work with a variety of other 'Mechs, but also required to carry maximum armor. The primary mission of the new 'Mech was to deliver the Narc pods to the target and let its lancemates provide the punishment. In 2587, the Quartermaster Command approved the General Mechanics Kintaro design.

Primarily a missile-carrier, the Kintaro packs a considerable punch. It is not a raider, however. Though it carries ample supplies for a single engagement, it is almost constantly in need of resupply. As any fight wears on, the effectiveness of the Kintaro decreases geometrically. Once the Narc Pods are gone, the Kintaro usually begins to look for a way out of the fighting."

Thank you. That helps quite a bit. Federated Suns, Rasalhague and Draconis Combine mech, right? I know it's Star League tech and Comstar.

Edited by Koniving, 06 August 2013 - 02:40 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Koniving, on 06 August 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Thank you. That helps quite a bit. Federated Suns, Rasalhague and Draconis Combine mech, right? I know it's Star League tech and Comstar.

Looking into it a bit further, there is some additional material from page 260 of TRO 3039:

"The Kintaro is a powerful sight to behold, belying its medium size. Built for the Star League to showcase the Narc missile designator, it was a powerful team player until the liberation of Terra from the Usurper led to the Kintaro factory on Mars being shut down. Attrition contributed to the near extinction of the Kintaro before the Third Succession War, but General Dynamics was able to rebuild a factory on Ozawa to produce the design. However, General Dynamics was unable to reproduce the original’s Narc Beacon, advanced heat sinks, and armor."

"Most of the KTO-18 models can be found with former Federated Suns units in the Federated Commonwealth. More prevalent are the Star League models in the Draconis Combine. These are concentrated in Ghost units as well as some Sword of Light regiments. The Com Guards also field a good number of Star League Kintaros."

The original Kintaro factory (General Mechanics' facility on Mars) was shut down when the Star League fell (late 2700s), and the Kintaro was out of production until General Dynamics rebuilt their sole facility on the world of Ozawa sometime between 2866 and 3025 (after said factory - and much of the planetary surface - was destroyed by DCMS forces sometime between 2830 and 2864), during the period in which Ozawa was part of the FedSuns.

By contrast, the bulk of the Kintaros within the DCMS were gifted to the Combine by ComStar as part of "Operation Rosebud", and were likely constructed on Mars before the shutdown of the General Mechanics facility (or, possibly, were new-construction units from a reactivated Martian facility).

Given all that (and having the sole known/confirmed Kintaro production facility in FedSuns space), it actually seems like the Kintaro is actually more of an AFFS 'Mech than it is a DCMS 'Mech...?

[White Bear 84]

Strum Wealh, on 06 August 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

As any fight wears on, the effectiveness of the Kintaro decreases geometrically. Once the Narc Pods are gone, the Kintaro usually begins to look for a way out of the fighting."

Ammo is why missile boating on mediums is not that great. Looking at stock loadout, ammo takes up a heap of the tonnage, but no case, really poor heat dissipation.

Given how much LRM's and SRM's can tend to miss and its heat levels, i cant see any reason why people would not just go for a 3 ERPPC medium that can do 80k... ..rather than take the risk of running an XL into an assault/heavy brawl.. ..maybe when we start seeing more lighter mechs..

That said, i really want to try this one out. I like the look of it

[Koniving]

White Bear 84, on 06 August 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Ammo is why missile boating on mediums is not that great. Looking at stock loadout, ammo takes up a heap of the tonnage, but no case, really poor heat dissipation.

Honestly boating is never a good idea in a mech. It's why I always fancy the idea of a rearm bill for more than 4 tons of a specific type of ammo (*dodges incoming hate messages*). In truth there isn't a single mech in lore that carried more than 6 tons of ammo for any specific weapon. I actually can't even think of a mech that carried 4 tons.

[aniviron]

Druidika, on 05 August 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Here's the video that shows the hero version, Golden Boy:

Haha, my favourite part is at 0:56 seconds where it kills a light mech with SRMs. I don't know what game they were playing to get that footage, but it certainly wasn't MWO, I can tell you that.

Quibbling about buggy SRM damage on small targets aside, I also love the fact that this mech hits in the same patch that they make SRM6 and SRM4 share a heat penalty! Great work on that- if you fire all your SRMs in a goup, like any sane person, you are now getting penalized for firing five SRM6 worth of damage on your heat.

[White Bear 84]

Koniving, on 06 August 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

Honestly boating is never a good idea in a mech. It's why I always fancy the idea of a rearm bill for more than 4 tons of a specific type of ammo (*dodges incoming hate messages*). In truth there isn't a single mech in lore that carried more than 6 tons of ammo for any specific weapon. I actually can't even think of a mech that carried 4 tons.

Not at all encouraging boating by all means, but as i was looking at builds it just really stood out for this particular mech.. ..i suppose i cant really say much until i have given it a try. Will start with the default build and see how it turns out and go from there. Thinking of trying this.Up cooling efficiency from 28% to 38% at the cost of dps and firepower. Given that SRM are heat linked the default looks like its going to be challenging to play without overheating and doing internal damage. Adding the LL add some long range firepower and reduce reliance on ammo.

Edited by White Bear 84, 06 August 2013 - 09:00 PM.