552 replies to this topic

[Belorion]

Tragos, on 08 August 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

Sometimes it really seems, that I must be wrong on this forum...since I actually like this game - and most of the current state, have only minor problems AND am a founder (and phoenix-purchaser)

I congratulate all those people posting before me, that live under circumstances which allow them to see those bugs as major lifestyle problems - or whatever you would call them.

Personally I prefer having fun .

You are actually in the majority. Its just people with nothing to complain about well... don't complain.

I only post on here because i don't want it to seem like the complainers are the only ones with a voice.

I am having a blast.

[John J Blackthorn]

I just wanted to say that I do not like the 12vs12 at all and would perfer an option for 8vs8 matches or have it random. I'm simply not going to play in 12v12 matches it simply isn't fun with light mechs.

[Chronojam]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

I remember lots of things...

I remember:

Flamers reigned supreme, they got nerfed.
MLs reigned supreme, don't remember why that changed.
SSRMS reigned supreme, they got nerfed.
LRMs reigned supreme, they got nerfed.
SRMs reigned supreme, they got nerfed.
LRMs reigned supreme, they got nerfed.
Gauss reigned supreme, they got nerfed.
LRMs reigned supreme, they got nerfed.
PPCs reigned supreme...

etc etc.

All the while I played with different builds and did the best I could in the meta. I did fine during pop-tarts, never used a pop-tart, I did fine durring sniperfest. Never ran a sniper. I did fine during LRMpocolypse... did run LRMs. In fact I have often taken the opposite weapons from the current FOTM meta since more often than not its only a slight edge, and actually bringing something different than everyone else can give you an edge since you are not playing by their rules.

Brawling is and always will be effective if you pilot the right way. For snipers and lrms to be effective they need a little uhmph in their punch. If not brawlers can just waltz up to them and kick butt.

Often people cry for changes before the meta even has time to adjust naturally.

You're being (brutally!) intellectually dishonest yet again. Flamers never "reigned supreme" and while they were abused by goons for a very short period with Hunchback 4Ps containing nothing else, flamers have been woefully underpowered which is why they now and then get a very minor buff thrown their way.

Medium lasers never "reigned supreme" although throughout Battletech and MechWarrior, they have historically served as a bargain/baseline weapon along with the Small Laser in terms of efficiency at the cost of range/damage.

SSRMs had a bug that made them nail you in the center torso always, which was pretty great when fighting warpy light mechs. I'll give you that. Streak Cats were a viable mech with tradeoffs (short range, cannot begin firing after turning the corner without achieving a lock first, lock could get confused by mechs darting between you and the target, cannot actually "aim" them so a chest-high wall guarantees zero damage and you cannot score headshots, you must face your target constantly while having a big canopy inviting headshots yourself, relatively low armor, all your weapons were in the weak "ears" that stand out). They were competitive in light fights, and it was handy for a heavier mech to bring a pair. This isn't a bad thing, and having them NOT beeline the CT always was a positive change. Right now SSRMs are pathetic.

LRMs were glitched, because PGI is bad at development and QA, not because of an intentional decision that Paul woke up and determined that every LRM fired ought to hit the HD of a mech. That was not a balance call or design intention, that was an honest mistake.

SRMs were pretty effective, but generally again when fit on a Catapult. They were really good on a Centurion or Atlas fit for brawling, but still had downsides-- SRMs, older players will remember, followed a very interesting weaving flight pattern. This meant you had to carefully aim your shots in order to hit a target with all your shots, as they alternated between a small cluster and a wide spray; converged at about 50m, and 150m, give or take. There was a good deal of skill involved in using these short-range weapons, predicting your position vs enemy position vs. converge point at time of fire.

Artemis was glitched for LRMs, causing it to grant bonuses even without line of sight, and too-tight clumpings due to poor QA and bad development. Not an intentional design decision. This was very quickly corrected, because it was a bug.

LRMs have generally become overpowered only when something with their flight pattern or splash damage (as is the case with SRMs interacting with hitboxes due to poorly developed and poorly tested new mechs -- not due to intentional design decisions impacting splash damage) glitches out as a result of another code change. Not because of intentional gameplay decisions, and these glitches are usually fixed pretty fast!

Gauss Catapults were honestly not that big a deal, except for the extreme size of some of the head hitboxes. I personally did pretty well using large lasers to nail head hitboxes at the same time, and only particular mechs could really be a problem against particular other mechs with large heads. You could still collide with mechs, and it was grand fun using a fast/heavy mech to shove over a Catapult in between his volleys. Lighter mechs were still fast back then, and their weapons still were viable enough to mess with gausscats.

Please try to argue honestly. When PGI screws up and makes LRMs instagib mechs and then fixes it up immediately, you can't really compare that with the months-long high-alpha long-range metagame we've been forced to suffer through.

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

The 2PPC+Gauss fotm has only been in place for a little over a week. I am already starting to see it fade. Before that, yes PPCs were dominant for a bit. Since then they came out with two patches that address it, the last one being on the 30th of July... 9 days ago.

So yes, it needs a little time to adjust.

You really are a straight up liar, because it's been in place since like February. It's now August. It's not exaggeration to say "this stupid **** has been going on for six months." A week? You're a liar.

[Xeno Phalcon]

I think he was referring to all the 3ppcs/1gauss mechs downgrading to 2ppc/1gauss chrono.

[Wales Grey]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

The 2PPC+Gauss fotm has only been in place for a little over a week. I am already starting to see it fade. Before that, yes PPCs were dominant for a bit. Since then they came out with two patches that address it, the last one being on the 30th of July... 9 days ago.

So yes, it needs a little time to adjust.

If you are starting to see PPC/Gauss fade, it's your ELO suffering.

Xeno Phalcon, on 08 August 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

I think he was referring to all the 3ppcs/1gauss mechs downgrading to 2ppc/1gauss chrono.

I don't think so. If he intended to talk about the downgrade, then he would have mentioned it in his post. By calling 2ppc1gauss (great mental image, btw) "flavor of the month", he's insinuating that this is a new fad that he has seen recently birthed into existence and is now dwindling into death.

[Anders]

Hello everyone:

Are we all forgetting the Cataphract 3D which fit that load out from the instant it dropped into players hands? That build has existed since November?

How quickly we all forget.

We here at The Word of Lowtax thank you for your post. We here at the Word of Lowtax realize that you have limited entertainment destinations and appreciate that you're spending your entertainment electrons on us. Please continue to choose the Word of Lowtax in your future holiday destination spending! We are grateful for your out of the box, blue-sky thinking, and appreciate you touching base with us here at the Word of Lowtax. We hope to synergize our efforts to achieve quantifiable paradigm redefinitions in a future collaboration soon.

Robotically Yours,
Anders

Public Relations Officer
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[Belorion]

Chronojam, on 08 August 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

You really are a straight up liar, because it's been in place since like February. It's now August. It's not exaggeration to say "this stupid **** has been going on for six months." A week? You're a liar.

Sure they weren't using 3ppcs + gauss, or 4+ppcs?

Also if you recall they were working on more pressing things. Now they have a little more time to work with weapon/balance tweak as UI 2.0, 12 man, and the like are being wrapped up. I also doubt seriously that the underlying damage numbers supported the alpha opness.

For example my highest damage per game weapon is the Large Laser... second LRM15, third AC/20, fourth UAC/5, fifth SRM 6... I don't get to ERPPC until #10 and PPC at #11.

[Chronojam]

Speaking as an official Word of Lowtax Scribe and VP of Consumer Marketing, I quickly consulted my rolodex of important historical mechs, equipment, and events.

Officially, Cataphract became a thing November 20, 2012.
Officially, SSRM2 Catapults became a thing November 20, 2012.
Officially, SSRM2 was nerfed November 27, 2012.

That's right. The 2PPC + 1 Gauss fittings began the same day that SSRM2 Catapults became a new issue. The only difference is, after seven days, PGI took action against SSRM2 Catapults. It has been seven months and 2PPC + 1 Gauss is still a dominant fit.

Belorion would have you believe that the seven-day "reign" of SSRM2 Catapults is equivalent to the seven-month dominance of 2PPC+1Gauss Cataphracts (and other mechs that can fit this same loadout, or better, often with jumpjets).

[Anders]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

Sure they weren't using 3ppcs + gauss, or 4+ppcs?

Also if you recall they were working on more pressing things. Now they have a little more time to work with weapon/balance tweak as UI 2.0, 12 man, and the like are being wrapped up. I also doubt seriously that the underlying damage numbers supported the alpha opness.

For example my highest damage per game weapon is the Large Laser... second LRM15, third AC/20, fourth UAC/5, fifth SRM 6... I don't get to ERPPC until #10 and PPC at #11.

Belorion:

No time for xml number tweaks, eh? You are correct, that does sound hard.

We here at The Word of Lowtax thank you for your post. We here at the Word of Lowtax realize that you have limited entertainment destinations and appreciate that you're spending your entertainment electrons on us. Please continue to choose the Word of Lowtax in your future holiday destination spending! We are grateful for your out of the box, blue-sky thinking, and appreciate you touching base with us here at the Word of Lowtax. We hope to synergize our efforts to achieve quantifiable paradigm redefinitions in a future collaboration soon.

Robotically Yours,
Anders

Public Relations Officer
Director of Man/Bird Relations
Loremaster of Word of Lowtax
Veteran of the First Round of the Run Hot or Die Funzies Tournament
A Draaaaaaagun Slayer, Victor over the "4 time crowned Champion from the day."
OpFor Veteran of Second Round of the Run Hot or Die Funzies Tournament
Survivor of the Great Market Collapse of September 18, 3049
Bro-Bots with Mech Romney, Member of the 53%
Commissioner of Entertainment Electrons
A [REDACTED] Asset
Oft Imitated, Never Duplicated
Crackin' Turtles since 3049
Master of the Trial of Walter
Marik Militia Masher
'Mechstradamus
Campaigning in the Inner Sphere for a better Capella
Survivor of the Festival of Artemis
Survivor of the Festival of Artemis 2: Electric Boogaloo
Survivor of the Festival of Artemis The Third: Lurmpocalypse Now
Survivor of the Festival of Artemis IV: Making a Bigger Problem to Fix Another
Podcasting Propaganda Information directly to your Neurohelmet 24/7/365
ilKhan of Clan Moderator-in-Exile
"The Goonders"
Recipient of the First ever "Community Contributor Award" - "The December Star of 3049"
Brought Order to Chaos
Anders Actual. Copy.
Schedulepower > Firepower
The Morning Sun, Vanquisher of the Horrible Midnight!
Krazy for Kaetetôã
Solaris Ranger Danger Wrecker
Rocked the Scorpions like a Hurricane
The Word of Lowtax: Pay to Win since 3049
Survivor of Excess Radiation
Communicating with Keys (my keyboard to be precise)
Hellish Hound Hacker
Never forget: 03/15/3050
Squawking is not a Crime
Poptarts are a Sometimes Food
Currently in the Beta Test of the A.P.E.S. (Anders Post Evaluation System)
A Legendary Overlord
Commander of Tactical Politeness
Secret Squirrels are to blame for why this game is bad.
Part of the Poptartageddon Deux: Heat Scalepocalypse Problem
First Citizen
Bropocalypse Now Battalion - "The Fist of Lowtax"

[Wales Grey]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

Sure they weren't using 3ppcs + gauss, or 4+ppcs?

4+ PPCs? No. There were gimmick builds for the Atlas and the Stalker, but they weren't used in any high-level matches. 3ppc+gauss was used only ever on one highlander, and that's because it's the single most optimal loadout you could fit on a sniper. 45dmg at ~500m on a jumpjet platform? You'd be crazy to not fit that. The shift to 2PPC1Gauss was only because firing three would overheat-shutdown a robot or cut into its DPS. People just ditched the third PPC for extra heat sinks or a bigger engine or other utility items.

[Chronojam]

Consulting my rolodex further.

Officially, the First Festival of Artemis began on November 6, 2012
Officially, the First Festival of Artemis ended on November 9, 2012

Belorion would have you believe that the three-day "reign" of Artemis (a programming glitch) is equivalent to the seven-month dominance of the 2ppc1gauss fitting that demonstrates the long stranglehold the high-alpha long-range sniping metagame has had on MWO, with no end in sight.

Curious. Seeing this discrepancy, I leaf through my rolodex a bit more. The First Festival of Artemis was not the only glitch favoring LRMs; how quickly was the next one handled? Let's check the Second Festival of Artemis.

Officially, the Second Festival of Artemis began on March 19, 2012
Officially, the Second Festival of Artemis ended on March 22, 2012

Belorion would have you believe that the second three-day "reign" of Artemis (a programming glitch) is also equivalent to the seven-month dominance of the 2ppc1gauss fitting that demonstrates the long stranglehold the high-alpha long-range sniping metagame has had on MWO.

[Panboy]

Guy guys guys stop fighting they fixed all this with ghost heat don't you see?!

[Graufalk]

So it's pretty crazy that despite all this, the lead developer of this game thinks that AC40 Jaegers and Splatcats, which are high risk/high rewards builds on a few specific variants, are a much bigger problem than 2xPPC1xGauss, which is a low risk high reward build that can be fit on Cataphracts, Highlanders, Victors, Atlai and Stalkers.

Edited by Graufalk, 08 August 2013 - 08:18 PM.

[Wales Grey]

Panboy, on 08 August 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

Guy guys guys stop fighting they fixed all this with ghost heat don't you see?!

Fun question for everyone! If you make a system that penalizes a MMO character using more than two skills within one second by stunning a character for four or five seconds, how is a mobile-channel stackable/recastable DoT skill supposed to compete with spike damage skills?

Edited by Wales Grey, 08 August 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[Nekki Basara]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

The 2PPC+Gauss fotm has only been in place for a little over a week. I am already starting to see it fade. Before that, yes PPCs were dominant for a bit. Since then they came out with two patches that address it, the last one being on the 30th of July... 9 days ago.

So yes, it needs a little time to adjust.

I liked your post because it's just so precious. It must be wonderful to have your own pocket reality

[Belorion]

Chronojam, on 08 August 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

Belorion would have you believe that the second three-day "reign" of Artemis (a programming glitch) is also equivalent to the seven-month dominance of the 2ppc1gauss fitting that demonstrates the long stranglehold the high-alpha long-range sniping metagame has had on MWO.

So I am to understand that the only loadout you are saying people had a problem with prior to the heat changes was the 2PPC + Guass cataphract?



Kay...

So how do you propose that the 2PPC + Gauss build be nerfed?

[Khobai]

12v12 is fine.

Everyone is still using ERPPCs though. Specifically ERPPC/Gauss. As predicted, Heat penalties and +1 heat have failed to balance ERPPCs.

Heat penalties need to be removed from the game. They accomplish nothing except make the game more confusing and it nerfed weapons that were never overpowered (LPL really?).

The problem with PPCs is NOT heat. Its the insanely fast projectile speed. It makes them universally the best weapon in the game because they have high damage, long range, and high accuracy.

[Wales Grey]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

So I am to understand that the only loadout you are saying people had a problem with prior to the heat changes was the 2PPC + Guass cataphract?



Kay...

So how do you propose that the 2PPC + Gauss build be nerfed?

That's a nice strawman/deflection combo there, bub.

edit: Let's put some content here. You see, there were ways to deal with every build back in closed beta. SRMs? Stay at range. PPC? Rush them and take down with brawling. Gaussapult? Shoot it in the gigantic Catapult head hitbox or exploit your superior DPS in a brawl. Multirole build? Either do its job better than it could do or force it into competing with what you specialized in.

The cumulative buffs to PPC (increased projectile speed, HSR), combined with its natural attributes (spike damage, good range), simply eliminated the advantages of using hitscan weapons like lasers at long range. #swagheat then cut the legs out from DPS builds, especially when you consider the normal tactics of the full-team matchup are conservative and involve short exposure times at range, which minimizes the effectiveness of lasers.

If you want to knock the 2ppc1gauss off its throne, you gotta make it less attractive by sprucing up its competitors. Or fundamentally re-evaluate your game's mechanics. But we're three weeks away from "commercial release" (ignoring that PGI has happily been taking people's money since closed beta "testing"), I'm willing to bet that PGI has neither the staff, the funds, the expertise, nor the time to re-assess their game's fundamental mechanics. So thus, the best way to unthrone the king is to raise up usurpers and contenders. Pump SRMs up to 2.5 per missile, kill ghost heat, make pulse lasers other than the small not trash, any of these could spark the demise of old king Tribolt Lightingferrocarbonslug. Ten minutes of editing XML files and a hotfix could clean this up.

If PGI wants to ignore the people who have been telling them for literal months that snipermeta dominated by 2ppc1gauss has been a problem, that's their prerogative, much as it's fully within one's rights to ignore the expiration dates on perishable foods. Doesn't mean it's particularly smart.

Edited by Wales Grey, 08 August 2013 - 09:32 PM.

[Panboy]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

So I am to understand that the only loadout you are saying people had a problem with prior to the heat changes was the 2PPC + Guass cataphract?



Kay...

So how do you propose that the 2PPC + Gauss build be nerfed?

Finally you see the light and ask the same question everyone else has been asking for the last 8 months. Congrats you have caught up and are on the same page now.

Im already bitter about this subject and I haven't been playing as long as half the people here.

[Belorion]

Wales Grey, on 08 August 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

That's a nice strawman/deflection combo there, bub.

Actually its closer to what we were talking about originally... the specifics of the load out was the strawman.

Panboy, on 08 August 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Finally you see the light and ask the same question everyone else has been asking for the last 8 months. Congrats you have caught up and are on the same page now.

Im already bitter about this subject and I haven't been playing as long as half the people here.

and I have yet to see anyone come up with a solution that doesn't suck. That's even if 2PPC + Gauss is even a problem in the first place which is debatable.