552 replies to this topic

[Vandril]

After playing 12 v 12 for a bit I like it. Ballistics will need to have more ammo to last the fight, not by much but some. I don't necessarily mind the C-Bill nerf, however it's unnecessary. It is going to make disposable models out of reach and no longer cost effective. Wins generating 130k on average WITH premium time is dis-incentivising. I have a ton of other equipment I'd rather spend my C-Bills on and mech chassis to buy. Stop screwing with the C-bill economy, it was fine. Before money sinks like consumables were introduced, it was made very apparent that whatever grind for C-Bills was envisioned doesn't work (see R&R).

A dire need is to address larger group sizes than 4 but less than 12.

[Wales Grey]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

and I have yet to see anyone come up with a solution that doesn't suck. That's even if 2PPC + Gauss is even a problem in the first place which is debatable.

I agree, ghost heat is an awful thing that does nothing useful. There's nothing inherently bad or problematic with the 2ppc1gauss build(s), what's bad/problematic is that it is the best fitting possible in the widest number of situations.

(I edited my post to provide content on the last page, if you want to actually have a substantive discussion.)

[Belorion]

I would like to see what SRM's are like after they git the hit detection fixed before a buff. I didn't think they needed the nerf in the first place though when everyone was crying that splatcats were OP.

[DisasterMedic]

Hi, Belorian, I believe this post is what you were looking for.

I am sorry that you haven't paid attention to any threads before that have exhaustively explained how Ghost Heat: the Magnum Opus is utterly useless garbage, and I am glad for you that your Elo is in the mythical "Paul's/Russ's Reality: 6 PPC Stalkers are a total pro build and ruining the game and sniping is totally underused" range so that you only recently began seeing players using the meta-compliant builds that have been dominant for months. Truly you are the lucky one, because in being so efficient at providing the enemy team with experience and C-Bills you have been able to avoid seeing the ugly thing that MWO has become for those that learn to harvest, rather than provide, XP and CB.

Edited by DisasterMedic, 09 August 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[bar10jim]

I find the C-bill nerf a bit problematic. As matches are tending to last longer in the 12 v 12 environment, C-bills/hour has gone down due to fewer matches/hour. The added C-bill nerf only compounds the situation. Fewer C-bills x fewer matches = incredibly long, boring grind. And this is supposed to attract new players?

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Look, it's simple really. PGI are trying to encourage people to purchase Premium Time and Hero Mechs, which cost $. They don't care if we have to play the game more. Playing more is good for them.

[Chronojam]

Graufalk, on 08 August 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

So it's pretty crazy that despite all this, the lead developer of this game thinks that AC40 Jaegers and Splatcats, which are high risk/high rewards builds on a few specific variants, are a much bigger problem than 2xPPC1xGauss, which is a low risk high reward build that can be fit on Cataphracts, Highlanders, Victors, Atlai and Stalkers.

The way it homogenizes the mech roster makes it silly to introduce the Kintaro. If they ever do give us an Orion, we know what the most popular fit will be, already. 2girlPPC1gauss

[Chronojam]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

So I am to understand that the only loadout you are saying people had a problem with prior to the heat changes was the 2PPC + Guass cataphract?



Kay...

So how do you propose that the 2PPC + Gauss build be nerfed?

I am saying the metagame has been such that one single loadout has been optimal on most mechs in the heavier weightclasses (to the extent that other weight classes are nigh useless, especially with new capture speed reductions harming lights which new pilots afford!) for seven months at this point. That is not healthy for a game that should pride itself on customization and tries to sell us on real-money variants. On page 15, before you started outright lying, I explained it pretty thoroughly.

Chronojam, on 08 August 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

That's because you're closed-minded enough that you believe that Paul's Magnum Opus aka Ghost Heat is the true solution and refuse to believe that simply making the other weapons better would lead to other weapons being used more. You're a legendary founder, you were there when the metagame wasn't like this.

Unless you stopped playing after two weeks and only came back in February, you should remember a better time. When I say that, let me be super clear: nobody is arguing that the netcode was better then, nobody is arguing that the score screen was better than, nobody would suggest that the chat or config options or base/capture graphics were as good as they are now.

But the game was better balanced and more fun, medium and light mechs had a place on the battlefield, and mid-to-high level play wasn't jumping cataphracts or highlanders fit with 2x1 PPC/Gauss combinations.

That's right, newcomers, the game was once not all about the long-range high-alpha nonsense you see today. It was like that without needless new bizarro-world heat systems. Belorion saw it, I saw it, the rest of the founders saw it. Several changes and updates combined made the game devolve into a snipefest. To believe that we need bizarro heat systems that punish "SRM2 boating" is incredibly dishonest because we've seen it work without such insanity.

Here's a quick-fix for dethroning the high-alpha long-range metagame. First, make mechs survivable enough to close the distance. Second, make close-range weaponry effective enough once you're there. Ta-da! PGI refuses to do that; they do the opposite even.

Adding heat penalties to SRM2 and SRM4 launchers, stripping their splash damage while making SSRM2 worthless, adding penalties to lasers, and screwing over twin AC/20 builds is going in the wrong direction and makes it harder for close range mechs to compete. Making mechs die faster via critical damage bonuses, and making mechs struggle to maneuvers up slopes, only makes it more likely for a mech to die to sniper fire before it enters weapons range. In short, the "balance changes" PGI have made simply continue to tip the scales towards the high-alpha long-range sniper meta by making other weapons less effective by comparison. You could balance the game without touching PPCs at all if you were willing to touch all the other weapons and adjust time-to-kill in order to make them competitive.

PGI's balancing and mechanics changes, thus far, have done nothing to diminish the dominant strategy and the single most dominant build the game has seen. It's been seven months -- there is no time for it to "shake out" and it's not magically fading as you seem to believe. I argue that PGI's most recent balancing attempts have done nothing but reinforce this dominant strategy and its dominant build by decreasing the viability of once competitive builds, such as the twinned AC/20s on an XL-equipped large-torsoed heavy.

I further argue that the winning way to combat the dominant metagame and its dominant build does not necessarily lie in the way of unintuitive, arbitrary penalties ("ghost" mechanics). Never once should an attempt at balancing the past five, six, seven months of play have introduced a heat penalty to the SRM-2 launcher of all things. Boosting mech survivability across the board, increasing ammunition to compensate (ballistic weapons on the whole have long suffered usability problems, often due to low ammo per ton), and vying to make other weaponry actually useful is a good start.

Consider the LB-10X autocannon. PGI should immediately abandon all misguided attempts to ensure it does 10 damage per hit, first of all. What role is there for such a heavy weapon that, because of outdated decades-old tabletop guidelines, must do ten and only ten damage? Please, don't introduce bizarre critical-boost mechanics that reduce time-to-kill for all mechs just because of some misguided attempt to allow an LB-10X to do more than 10 damage without just changing the numbers to be greater-than-ten. The LB-10X currently has no role, in part due to being hamstrung like this; give it a role, make it worthwhile instead of worthless.

[Khobai]

Quote

Consider the LB-10X autocannon. PGI should immediately abandon all misguided attempts to ensure it does 10 damage per hit, first of all. What role is there for such a heavy weapon that, because of outdated decades-old tabletop guidelines, must do ten and only ten damage? Please, don't introduce bizarre critical-boost mechanics that reduce time-to-kill for all mechs just because of some misguided attempt to allow an LB-10X to do more than 10 damage without just changing the numbers to be greater-than-ten. The LB-10X currently has no role, in part due to being hamstrung like this; give it a role, make it worthwhile instead of worthless.

I think PGI wants an LB10X to do 10 damage because otherwise the 10 in the name is meaningless. Other mechwarrior games have renamed them light/medium/heavy autocannons to get around that confusion. PGI could do the same thing. Just call it a Medium LBX Autocannon.

[Chronojam]

Yeah, but who gives a **** that it does 10 damage just because it's called an LB-10X? Make it fire ten pellets that do 7.41 damage apiece for all it matters, just make sure it does its damn job in being an anti-mech shotgun.

If PGI had stopped obsessing over making it do ten damage, and invested their time in more interesting new game mechanics such as swapping LB-10X ammo between a slightly-worse-than-AC10 slug and a better-than-spraying-AC2s spray, you could have a really neat multirole weapon right now. Instead we can look forward to worthless ghost heat, worthless ghost damage, and a worthless LB-10X. Oh, and month eight of the 2ppc1gauss dominance.

[Dart Nimrod]

Since that "heat scale addition system" appeared, the farther the worse this game becomes. I wonder, what else PGI guys can do to finally kill gameplay? You thanking me for patience? Well let me tell you, it's running out.

I appreciate reducing of heat of several weapons, like ER Large Lasers and other minor adjustments, but why the heat scale addition system is still in game? If ALL community (in what I seriously doubt) is so tired of PPC monsters, then why don't you simply reduce the armor-penetrating ability of PPCs instead of killing all other weapons with absurd heat penalties. PPCs, for an energy weapon, have plenty special abilities, like shutting down ECMs and ballistic type of fire.

12x12 is a nice thing for the first sight, but first impression could be deceiving. In fact, adding 4 extra mech to each team, turned maneuverable combat into a stupid rumble. Could leave 8x8 mode as an option, at least.

Point capture takes longer now? I might say, that it's ridiculous long. What points capture in the conquest mode is for, if even a legged mech can catch up with you, while you're trying to capture one pitiful point?

[Wales Grey]

You see, PGI increased capture times because they want to make medium and light mechs contribute more to the team, other than back-capping and scouting!

Spoiler

It's because assault is the most boring and worst game mode, cargo-cult-copied from World of Tanks.

[Wales Grey]

You see, PGI increased capture times because they want to make medium and light mechs contribute more to the team, other than back-capping and scouting!

Spoiler

It's because assault is the most boring and worst game mode, cargo-cult-copied from World of Tanks.

[DemonRaziel]

Dart Nimrod, on 08 August 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

Point capture takes longer now? I might say, that it's ridiculous long. What points capture in the conquest mode is for, if even a legged mech can catch up with you, while you're trying to capture one pitiful point?

I understand their reasoning - they wanted to avoid a wolf pack from capping the base too soon, especially since in 12v12, you get 2 wolf packs into a single drop easily.

But when it comes to a lone Light (or even a pair), he's pretty much done for. Having to spend more time on a base allows all the slow-moving big guys to catch up with him/fire at him longer. It also gives them more time to dish it out between each other before the survivors turn on the Lights running around capping.

All in all, the light 'Mechs ability to contribute to his team has just been diminished while even more emphasis has been put on combat.

[Dart Nimrod]

Wales Grey, on 09 August 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

You see, PGI increased capture times because they want to make medium and light mechs contribute more to the team, other than back-capping and scouting!

Spoiler

It's because assault is the most boring and worst game mode, cargo-cult-copied from World of Tanks.

Whatever... still it looks like... you know, what I mean?

Spoiler

[PauL2088]

You know what, guys, all this stuff became really annoying. I just wanna have fun from the gameplay, but it become harder with every single patch. Anyway, Happy Patch Day!

[Belorion]

DisasterMedic, on 08 August 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

I am glad for you that your Elo is in the "trying daily to not asphyxiate on my own tongue" range so that you only recently began seeing players using the meta-compliant builds that have been dominant for months.

Panboy, on 08 August 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Finally you see the light and ask the same question everyone else has been asking for the last 8 months. Congrats you have caught up and are on the same page now.

Im already bitter about this subject and I haven't been playing as long as half the people here.

Chronojam, on 08 August 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

The way it homogenizes the mech roster makes it silly to introduce the Kintaro. If they ever do give us an Orion, we know what the most popular fit will be, already. 2girlPPC1gauss

If the goons seriously want to take an active part in the discussions about MWO AND want to be taken seriously you are going to have to tone down the trolling.  No one is ever going to take you seriously when the first thing you do is resort to ad hominem attacks.

People will stop listeningto you, and its not because you are winning your debate, its because they simply stop feeding the trolls.

Its the main reason I don't and never will support #saveMWO and encourage others not to as well.  If you want to be taken seriously learn how to communicate like a collective of mature individuals not a trolling mob.

Edited by Belorion, 09 August 2013 - 04:18 AM.

[DisasterMedic]

Belorion, on 09 August 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

:words:

Oh no, a guy that at this point comes across as a pathological liar is upset by objective fact and his being offended by reality is going to prevent him from trying to make MWO better. Whatever shall we do?

I also love your paranoia. While it is true that literally everyone in House Liao is a goon, this is amazingly :tinfoil:

[Belorion]

DisasterMedic, on 09 August 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

Oh no, a guy that at this point comes across as a pathological liar is upset by objective fact and his being offended by reality is going to prevent him from trying to make MWO better. Whatever shall we do?

I also love your paranoia. While it is true that literally everyone in House Liao is a goon, this is amazingly :tinfoil:

and that's why people don't take you seriously.

[Dart Nimrod]

Belorion, on 09 August 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

If the goons seriously want to take an active part in the discussions about MWO AND want to be taken seriously you are going to have to tone down the trolling. No one is ever going to take you seriously when the first thing you do is resort to ad hominem attacks.

People will stop listeningto you, and its not because you are winning your debate, its because they simply stop feeding the trolls.

Its the main reason I don't and never will support #saveMWO and encourage others not to as well. If you want to be taken seriously learn how to communicate like a collective of mature individuals not a trolling mob.

Goons? Are you seriously think that insults is the best choice when you want to point the discussion in the right direction? Before telling people about becoming a mature individual, you better learn how to be patient and tolerant.

And what was that, you said about trolling, Mr. "nearly 4000 posts"? If all those posts were strictly essentially, then I must admit that you are amazingly intellectual and erudite person, and made a great input into education of MWO community. But I have serious doubts about that. So if you want people to follow your wise teachings, you better learn how to be more humble.

I apologize in advance, if something in this post you will find sarcastic and/or abusive.