552 replies to this topic

[Belorion]

Kraven Kor, on 08 August 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

I am sure there are at least a few "Watch the World Burn" types involved; so fed up they are actively sabotaging things.

I doubt they are the majority, or even a statistical minority, but I'm sure they are there.

Most of us just want the game PGI sold us last year.

I mean, I feel I have been very polite and professional, if a bit annoyingly persistent. Or at least I hope so. I know there is a lot of hate thrown at PGI; I do not hate. I am confused, I am angry, I am feeling cheated, but I do not hate nor do I riddle my posts or opinions with subtle or overt jabs and insults towards PGI.

I think most of the more lucid posters on the subject would fall in the same category.

The "**** PGI" guys can EABOD because they are not helping.

I guess there are some lost the faith people scattered in among the malcontents.

While I agree that PGI's communication on these matters could be better, I disagree that they aren't doing anything. I work in software, so I know sometimes these things just take time. They have let us know they are working on most of these issues.

hit detection
new user experience
weapon balance
ui 2.0
lobbies
a new mode (tied in with lobbies)
cw
.... etc etc

are all things being worked on.

Could they be better about letting us know? Sure, I think they are pretty gun shy about releasing information due to the overwhelming deluge of negative that would hit wave after wave when they do.

Would it have been nice to get all this stuff in already? Sure... do deadlines slip? Absolutely.

Kraven YOU don't seem like a bad guy... many of the #saveMWO people fit more in with category 1 (just like to be negative) than I think you would like to admit.

I have read some of the transcript for the town meeting. If you can get past a lot of the mooing, and the random statements, there are two types. People flat out complaining about MWO (PGI haters), and people asking for a rational approach to the problems they perceive(the people that think things are moving too slowly). The negative people out weigh the ones asking for a cooperative approach.

[Viper69]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

The negative people out weigh the ones asking for a cooperative approach.

I think the numbers a few months ago would have been reversed.

I dont like being negative because it ruins my mojo it pained me to even write that post i did because I honestly feel like Kraven that they are being pressured and lack the fortitude or financial ability to not change. I dont want the game nor the company to fail for god sake and I surely dont think my opinion is the right one either because its just an opinion.

As I said last year when the first wave of people started to leave I said you would never see me say goodbye because I dont feel I am important enough for anyone to care. That and I will never truly leave because I love the genre even if I dislike its course presently. Maybe in the end we will forget about the journey and be happy when we reach the destination if the game is enjoyable for all.

[Belorion]

Viper69, on 08 August 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

As I said last year when the first wave of people started to leave I said you would never see me say goodbye because I dont feel I am important enough for anyone to care. That and I will never truly leave because I love the genre even if I dislike its course presently. Maybe in the end we will forget about the journey and be happy when we reach the destination if the game is enjoyable for all.

Life isn't about destinations, its about the journey. Enjoy the journey or the destinations will always disappoint you.

[Kunae]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Life isn't about destinations, its about the journey. Enjoy the journey or the destinations will always disappoint you.

This seems to be at least part of the journey:

[Kunae]

... which transitions into this occasionally:

[Belorion]

It doesn't have to be an easy journey for you to enjoy it. In fact the more tribulations along the way the more memorable the experience.

[Chronojam]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

I guess there are some lost the faith people scattered in among the malcontents.

While I agree that PGI's communication on these matters could be better, I disagree that they aren't doing anything. I work in software, so I know sometimes these things just take time. They have let us know they are working on most of these issues.
:words:

Right. They've been working on those issues. And suddenly out of the blue, code dropped from the heavens to implement ghost heat, the xml shifted itself to reduce c-bill earnings across the board, and a new mechanic worked its way into source control that shortens time-to-kill by introducing a new critical boost system, and the camera fairy provided a new third person view mechanic the majority--even Russ--thought was a bad idea and threatened to split the queue further despite the difficulty in finding matches. On top of the servers, of their own volition, now forcing groups to play 2-4 or a jump to 12 instead of 8 when arranging 8-mans was already hard.

It sure is a good thing PGI was working on all those other issues you pointed out the whole time, instead of implementing this trash that just happened through spontaneous development. The mysteries of the universe, folks. I just feel bad that PGI will need to fix all that awful trash that happened while they were out of the office for the evening. Can you imagine working so hard to make it easier to find a match, and then you show up to work the next day and POW!, the servers upped the count to twelve? Hoo boy I'd be frustrated.

[Belorion]

Chronojam, on 08 August 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Right. They've been working on those issues. And suddenly out of the blue, code dropped from the heavens to implement ghost heat, the xml shifted itself to reduce c-bill earnings across the board, and a new mechanic worked its way into source control that shortens time-to-kill by introducing a new critical boost system, and the camera fairy provided a new third person view mechanic the majority--even Russ--thought was a bad idea and threatened to split the queue further despite the difficulty in finding matches. On top of the servers, of their own volition, now forcing groups to play 2-4 or a jump to 12 instead of 8 when arranging 8-mans was already hard.

It sure is a good thing PGI was working on all those other issues you pointed out the whole time, instead of implementing this trash that just happened through spontaneous development. The mysteries of the universe, folks. I just feel bad that PGI will need to fix all that awful trash that happened while they were out of the office for the evening. Can you imagine working so hard to make it easier to find a match, and then you show up to work the next day and POW!, the servers upped the count to twelve? Hoo boy I'd be frustrated.

3PV is being implemented for the new player experience which the letter states is a concern. Ghost heat is brought in to balance weapons which the letter states is a concern. They buffed MGs and Flamers which is a long sought after buffed asked for by the community. The elimination of large groups within pugs is something the community wanted. Now they state they will be finding a way for people to queue with group sizes large than 4... also asked for by the community and contrary to the first request of removing premades from pugs.

They are doing everything your letter asks them to do. Just because a few don't like the specifics of how they are responding to community concerns doesn't mean that they aren't.

[Bootsock]

Unusually for this thread I'm going to post something related to the original topic.

Personally, I think the patch which added 12v12 is very good and so far I've already had some memorable games since it was introduced including one win where teams were down to one on one, and our game was won by me in an Atlas with no weapons or side torsos left (you probably had to be there! ).

Games seem to be more enjoyable, balanced load-outs seem more important, ammo must be conserved, teamwork appears to have been brought out more, and many of the maps work better with larger populations. In general I'm having more fun on it which is what it's all about for me really.

Any bad points? Sure, I've noticed the hit in C-Bills which seems either badly thought out, or a little like a ploy to generate MC sales, I'm realistic and remember that someone is trying to run a company and make money out of this venture, but I hope -Bill earnings get a buff.

Other than that, it's all good. Well done.

[Jodajo]

Honestly, I don't quite understand what this ranting and PGI bashing is all about. I personally am super happy with anything they (PGI) provide with this game. Although I guess this mostly has something to do with my background. As I'm quite new to the game, I firstly don't know what the game has been/has felt like before, in the very beginning of field testing (we're all beta testers, still). Secondly, I'm not familiar with how people who were there from the beginning imagined the game would be now. So this might be one thing why people are becoming upset. Another thing might be the fact that a lot of guys (in the forums and in the game respectively) are not really being constructive in their critzism and lack the ability to reasonably express their doubts about the direction PGI is taking this. Like if they were scared of any change. Because every change means they have to rethink and adapt their playstyle in order to get kills. Maybe even try out a new weapon setup o_O Something along those lines... So if anyone was able to sum up why people are complaining so much, I would be so happy!

The features PGI implements and lets loose on the community each 2 weeks may not be perfect or balanced or fit everyone's needs (who is used to running around with 4 erppcs and all of a sudden faces overheat, wtf?). But still, I love to see those people work and actually try out stuff. You'll never have perfect balance, but you need to test the **** in order to get closer to this ideal. Also, there are plenty of big chunks they are currently working on, as stated in many beforegoing posts (cw, lobbies, game modes, bla). So it should be clear you won't see all these features in the next 2 weeks. To be honest, I'd be surprised if they got it all out at release (finger crossed), which is less then 2 months away. Some patience might be helpful here.

Communication from PGI could be better. But from a programmer's perspective I feel it's quite understandable that you don't want to discuss every single detail of the game, especially in this stage of a project, facing a rather close release date. It's gotta feel like talking to a wall sometimes. As I said before - patience is good sometimes.

From my own personal perspective: Since I have picked up MWO a couple of weeks ago, I must admit this comes closest to the game I was looking for, for quite some time now. The last time I had a similar gaming experience was probably back in the late 90s, with MW3. It's just a great mech simulation in my opinion.

TL;DR: What all this rant about? Consider being constructive in your criticism. PGI's communication could be better, but I find it rather understandable. And MWO is great, g/j PGI.

[Chronojam]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

3PV is being implemented for the new player experience which the letter states is a concern. Ghost heat is brought in to balance weapons which the letter states is a concern. They buffed MGs and Flamers which is a long sought after buffed asked for by the community. The elimination of large groups within pugs is something the community wanted. Now they state they will be finding a way for people to queue with group sizes large than 4... also asked for by the community and contrary to the first request of removing premades from pugs.

They are doing everything your letter asks them to do. Just because a few don't like the specifics of how they are responding to community concerns doesn't mean that they aren't.

Stop being intellectually dishonest you awful shill, the specifics of what they're doing is an issue because the things they are doing are not addressing the problems the game faces. Third person to let you see where your legs and torso are facing? Better make sure the camera doesn't show your legs. PPC+Gauss eclipse other fitting choices? Better ghost-heat Large Lasers and group them with other shorter-ranged lasers to "balance" weapons! Long-range high-alpha metagame with a lack of good facepunching weapons got you down? Don't worry we buffed machine guns while adding a heat penalty to SRM2/SRM4/SRM6. Hard to find 8-man matches? Don't worry now you must find twelve, a fifty percent increase, that should make it easier.

This is your position, is it not? As long as PGI does something, who cares if it makes it worse, specifics don't matter, you say? I'm sorry, but making matters worse should not count as "responding to community concerns" and a token additional one heat to PPCs does not even begin to address the metagame, so no, I'm not satisfied with the specifics.

[Graufalk]

Jodajo, on 08 August 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Another thing might be the fact that a lot of guys (in the forums and in the game respectively) are not really being constructive in their critzism and lack the ability to reasonably express their doubts about the direction PGI is taking this. Like if they were scared of any change. Because every change means they have to rethink and adapt their playstyle in order to get kills. Maybe even try out a new weapon setup o_O Something along those lines... So if anyone was able to sum up why people are complaining so much, I would be so happy!

Except people are mad because there hasn't been enough change. PPCs have been dominant for what, 4-5 months now? And they're still by far the best weapon in the game. Once you start hitting up games with 6+ CTF-3D/HGN-732s all carrying the same weapons, you'll see what we're talking about. But can you really blame them when there's no point in using anything other than 2xPPC/1xGauss?

I think what you should be asking: why is PGI so afraid of nerfing the sniper meta?

[Belorion]

Chronojam, on 08 August 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Stop being intellectually dishonest you awful shill, the specifics of what they're doing is an issue because the things they are doing are not addressing the problems the game faces. Third person to let you see where your legs and torso are facing? Better make sure the camera doesn't show your legs. PPC+Gauss eclipse other fitting choices? Better ghost-heat Large Lasers and group them with other shorter-ranged lasers to "balance" weapons! Long-range high-alpha metagame with a lack of good facepunching weapons got you down? Don't worry we buffed machine guns while adding a heat penalty to SRM2/SRM4/SRM6. Hard to find 8-man matches? Don't worry now you must find twelve, a fifty percent increase, that should make it easier.

This is your position, is it not? As long as PGI does something, who cares if it makes it worse, specifics don't matter, you say? I'm sorry, but making matters worse should not count as "responding to community concerns" and a token additional one heat to PPCs does not even begin to address the metagame, so no, I'm not satisfied with the specifics.

I don't think they have made anything worse. I had issue with the groups 5 to 7 being unplayable and they have stated they are looking into it. Cool.

Heat I am fine with (I actually think it was fine before the heat)
3PV I am fine with (I was an early proponent of 3PV before closed beta)
I haven't really noticed MG's being OP.
12 v 12 is what its supposed to be a/k/a company vs company

So from my point of view it has continued to get better or laterally changed.

If they follow the advice of nerf aiming/or slowing convergence then no I wont be happy with it, but I will offer advice constructively not come on here demanding change or my overlord package money back. I won't call the people that disagree with me whales or shills...

Graufalk, on 08 August 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Except people are mad because there hasn't been enough change. PPCs have been dominant for what, 4-5 months now? And they're still by far the best weapon in the game. Once you start hitting up games with 6+ CTF-3D/HGN-732s all carrying the same weapons, you'll see what we're talking about. But can you really blame them when there's no point in using anything other than 2xPPC/1xGauss?

I think what you should be asking: why is PGI so afraid of nerfing the sniper meta?

That other guys is mad because there has been too much that has changed that he doesn't like.

[DemonRaziel]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

3PV is being implemented for the new player experience which the letter states is a concern. Ghost heat is brought in to balance weapons which the letter states is a concern. They buffed MGs and Flamers which is a long sought after buffed asked for by the community. The elimination of large groups within pugs is something the community wanted. Now they state they will be finding a way for people to queue with group sizes large than 4... also asked for by the community and contrary to the first request of removing premades from pugs.

They are doing everything your letter asks them to do. Just because a few don't like the specifics of how they are responding to community concerns doesn't mean that they aren't.

I kinda envy you - you are showing patience and trust towards the devs that many of us are losing, or have already lost.

We all know why they did what they did (in most cases), but the thing is, more often than not their fixes either don't work, or thez are overly complicated trying to achieve something that could have been achieved in an easier way.

3PV will not help new players if they still can't see their 'Mech's legs, don't know jack about managing heat (especially with the new math quiz added on top of the heat management system). Not to mention the poor lads have to struggle with throttle decay when they first time get into the game. A well made tutorial would do unspeakably more to introduce newbies into the game. I know it's on the way, but it's way past due and will most likely hit after the 3PV, that will be in no way restricted to new players only. They are "fixing" the crappy trial 'Mechs issue somewhat by introducing the Champion 'Mechs, but that still leaves the new guys with 3 crappy 'Mechs out of 4 to choose from.

And what is going to happen if the split queues will result in even more exacerberated match making? I am willing to take a bet they will unite the queues back, thus forcing the 1PV players to drop against 3PV ones and vice versa.

Ghost heat has managed to get rid of dual AC20s and 6 PPC Stalkers. Now it has also managed to reduce the 4 PPC builds and somehow diminish the amount of 3 PPC + Gauss builds. Dual PPC + Gauss is the new meta, which does help to reduce the instant pin-point damage per alpha, but the overarching problem still persist and as soon as we get to 2x PPC + 2x Gauss capable builds we're back to where we started. It's also nerfed the Splat Cat and every other brawler build relying on mass SRMs and Lasers, keeping PPCs a no-brainer on top of the energy weapon food chain.

Buffing MGs and Flamers was a necessity to make these weapons even remotely viable (and all the 'Mechs relying on these weapons).

Increasing the number of players that can drop in a premade group is a good thing, indeed. Once the implement it, I will be very thankful... however we only have promises (or more like statements, not sure I could call them promises), but no ETA and no solid information to go by. Same goes for the Lobbies, that will drastically improve the experience competitive players will get from this game.

So all in all, they do try to fix the issues this game has, but sometimes it seems to me (and many others) they are either trying too hard or not enough.

[Belorion]

I haven't seen even 1 suggestion to help with pin point alpha damage that is an actual improvement over the heat system that has been put into place.

Mostly aiming nerfs, and/or build nerfs that won't address the problem...

imo tactics are a much better equalizer of the problem than either heat or the others. I think I died to pin point damage maybe two or three times in the months before PPCs were nerfed.

[Chronojam]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

I haven't seen even 1 suggestion to help with pin point alpha damage that is an actual improvement over the heat system that has been put into place.

Mostly aiming nerfs, and/or build nerfs that won't address the problem...

imo tactics are a much better equalizer of the problem than either heat or the others. I think I died to pin point damage maybe two or three times in the months before PPCs were nerfed.

That's because you're closed-minded enough that you believe that Paul's Magnum Opus aka Ghost Heat is the true solution and refuse to believe that simply making the other weapons better would lead to other weapons being used more. You're a legendary founder, you were there when the metagame wasn't like this.

Unless you stopped playing after two weeks and only came back in February, you should remember a better time. When I say that, let me be super clear: nobody is arguing that the netcode was better then, nobody is arguing that the score screen was better than, nobody would suggest that the chat or config options or base/capture graphics were as good as they are now.

But the game was better balanced and more fun, medium and light mechs had a place on the battlefield, and mid-to-high level play wasn't jumping cataphracts or highlanders fit with 2x1 PPC/Gauss combinations.

That's right, newcomers, the game was once not all about the long-range high-alpha nonsense you see today. It was like that without needless new bizarro-world heat systems. Belorion saw it, I saw it, the rest of the founders saw it. Several changes and updates combined made the game devolve into a snipefest. To believe that we need bizarro heat systems that punish "SRM2 boating" is incredibly dishonest because we've seen it work without such insanity.

Here's a quick-fix for dethroning the high-alpha long-range metagame. First, make mechs survivable enough to close the distance. Second, make close-range weaponry effective enough once you're there. Ta-da! PGI refuses to do that; they do the opposite even.

Adding heat penalties to SRM2 and SRM4 launchers, stripping their splash damage while making SSRM2 worthless, adding penalties to lasers, and screwing over twin AC/20 builds is going in the wrong direction and makes it harder for close range mechs to compete. Making mechs die faster via critical damage bonuses, and making mechs struggle to maneuvers up slopes, only makes it more likely for a mech to die to sniper fire before it enters weapons range. In short, the "balance changes" PGI have made simply continue to tip the scales towards the high-alpha long-range sniper meta by making other weapons less effective by comparison. You could balance the game without touching PPCs at all if you were willing to touch all the other weapons and adjust time-to-kill in order to make them competitive.

Edited by Chronojam, 08 August 2013 - 04:09 PM.

[Belorion]

I remember lots of things...

I remember:

Flamers reigned supreme, they got nerfed.
MLs reigned supreme, don't remember why that changed.
SSRMS reigned supreme, they got nerfed.
LRMs reigned supreme, they got nerfed.
SRMs reigned supreme, they got nerfed.
LRMs reigned supreme, they got nerfed.
Gauss reigned supreme, they got nerfed.
LRMs reigned supreme, they got nerfed.
PPCs reigned supreme...

etc etc.

All the while I played with different builds and did the best I could in the meta. I did fine during pop-tarts, never used a pop-tart, I did fine durring sniperfest. Never ran a sniper. I did fine during LRMpocolypse... did run LRMs. In fact I have often taken the opposite weapons from the current FOTM meta since more often than not its only a slight edge, and actually bringing something different than everyone else can give you an edge since you are not playing by their rules.

Brawling is and always will be effective if you pilot the right way. For snipers and lrms to be effective they need a little uhmph in their punch. If not brawlers can just waltz up to them and kick butt.

Often people cry for changes before the meta even has time to adjust naturally.

[Graufalk]

Just because you "do fine" (what does this even mean?) in your special snowflake Trebuchet doesn't mean a problem doesn't exist. And the fact that you said that makes me believe you don't play the game anywhere near a high level where the problem is prevalent.

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

Often people cry for changes before the meta even has time to adjust naturally.

Oh yeah? How many more months of the PPC/Gauss sniper meta does the game need?

Jesus ******* christ.

[Belorion]

Graufalk, on 08 August 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

Oh yeah? How many more months of the PPC/Gauss sniper meta does the game need?

Jesus ******* christ.

The 2PPC+Gauss fotm has only been in place for a little over a week. I am already starting to see it fade. Before that, yes PPCs were dominant for a bit. Since then they came out with two patches that address it, the last one being on the 30th of July... 9 days ago.

So yes, it needs a little time to adjust.

[Tragos]

Sometimes it really seems, that I must be wrong on this forum...since I actually like this game - including the current state, have only minor problems AND am a founder (and phoenix-purchaser)

I congratulate all those people posting before me, that live under circumstances which allow them to see those bugs as major lifestyle problems - or whatever you would call them.

Personally I prefer having fun instead of pretending that the end is nigh, when a new bug occurs.


Besides - just one question:

Which weapon DO you guys like?

Since the following obviously annoy you:

SSRMs (NERF STREAKAPULTS!)
SRMs (nerf SRM6-Pults!)
LRMS (LRM-apocalypse)
PPCS
Gauss
AC20
(ECM)
So...only Laser, small ACs and MGs are ok?









And Flamers.

Edited by Tragos, 08 August 2013 - 04:47 PM.