96 replies to this topic

[DemonRaziel]

Has nothing to do with light 'Mech being pushed back on one 'Mech release rotation and skipped on another so that we are now 1-2 Lights short compared to the rest of the weight categories.

[BookWyrm]

If light mechs were too good I guarantee we'd see far more of them in matches. As is, it's typically 4 max, usually one or two in the games that I play.

[Trauglodyte]

Khobai, on 11 August 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

Lights in general need a revamp because of the speedcap.

If a 25 ton mech like a Commando cant outrun a 35 ton mech like a Jenner, then whats the point of the Commando? Lighter mechs needs to be able to outrun mechs that outgun them or theres no point to them existing.

The current speed calculations should never have been allowed. The Spider and Cicada are two of the fastest mechs in the game. And yet, they're unable to truly shine as they were intended because of this god awful engine math.

[Joseph Mallan]

Trauglodyte, on 12 August 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

The current speed calculations should never have been allowed. The Spider and Cicada are two of the fastest mechs in the game. And yet, they're unable to truly shine as they were intended because of this god awful engine math.

The Spider was meant to be a Scout Mech. Use to penetrate behind enemy lines and gather information an disrupt supply lines. you can't do that at 150KpH?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 12 August 2013 - 01:39 PM.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 August 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

The Spider was meant to be a Scout Mech. Use to penetrate behind enemy lines and gather information an disrupt supply lines. you can't do that at 150KpH?

Hate to disagree with you on something lore-related, but the Spider was designed as a fast Striker for the SLDF commando forces. Lightning strikes at the enemy rear was its intended role.

Come to think of it, that's not actually disagreeing, except for the scouting and gathering information part.

[Trauglodyte]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 August 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

The Spider was meant to be a Scout Mech. Use to penetrate behind enemy lines and gather information an disrupt supply lines. you can't do that at 150KpH?

I can't cause I don't own a Spider Seriously though, I'm just echoing the point that Khobai made. The Spider and Cicada were built on the fastest speeds, light armor, and even lighter weapon payloads. Despite the complete lack of role warfare in this game, if I hop in a mech predicated on being the fastest and I can't outrun the strike mechs, whose roles were based on hitting harder but going much slower, what's the point?

Edited by Trauglodyte, 12 August 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[jakucha]

I'd say mediums are in need of more attention than lights right now, aside from the spider issue.

[MonkeyCheese]

Sigh.. even with all this great news in the announcements section lately there is still no word on anything light mech or light role related.

[Shadey99]

Well they did give us a view of the 2 locust variants besides the 1V that will be in game... And unless something happens the Locust will be the next released light since the Flea seems to have been kidnapped in the PGI labs...

[Khobai]

Quote

The Spider was meant to be a Scout Mech. Use to penetrate behind enemy lines and gather information an disrupt supply lines. you can't do that at 150KpH?

You can. The problem is the Jenner also goes 151 too, even though its not supposed to. The result is that the Jenner is superior to almost every other light mech. Why play a Commando? Its 10 tons lighter than a Jenner. It cant go as fast as a jenner. it has no jumpjets. It has two-thirds the firepower of a Jenner at best (deaths knell).

35-40 ton mechs should NOT be able to hit the speed cap. Because it makes every mech under 30 tons completely obsolete. The only reason spiders are so popular is because its screwed up hitbox makes it difficult to kill, but when thats fixed theyll fade back into obscurity.

Worse yet is somehow the Jenner was placed in the same movement category as the other tiny mechs when its got a full 10-15 tons on most of them. The Jenner should be small not tiny. Its got jumpjets to get up hills so it doesnt really need to be classed as tiny anyway.

The Jenner and Cicada should also both be capped at 135-140kph. That way the spider, commando, flea, locust will have at least some advantage over them. Otherwise theres gonna be a whole subset of tiny mechs that will never get used because theyre just way worse Jenners.

Edited by Khobai, 17 August 2013 - 05:42 AM.

[Shadey99]

Khobai, on 17 August 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

The Jenner and Cicada should both be capped at 135-140kph. That way the spider, commando, flea, locust will have at least some advantage over them. Otherwise theres gonna be a whole subset of tiny mechs that will never get used because theyre just way worse Jenners.

Not quite sure I understand the Cicada hate. It was designed to be a light in lore with the five tons added later to make it commercially viable. Then in MWO the Jenner is superior in every other way to it except firepower and then only if you keep the speed near stock. My Cicadas all run 133 kph as is, because the law of diminishing returns cuts in much higher up than that. See this thread about how that works: http://mwomercs.com/...spot-for-speed/

Also no mechs in game can actually hit 150 kph, it's actually like 140 kph and then the readout lies to you. You can see this in action if you run a mech just under 140 kph and a mech that the game says can run 150 kph next to each other. The two will run right next to each other.

Oh and the Flea was never meant to be a fast mech, on engine the stock Flea runs 96 kph and only on MASC does it reach an equal footing with a stock Locust.

[MonkeyCheese]

Khobai, on 17 August 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

You can. The problem is the Jenner also goes 151 too, even though its not supposed to. The result is that the Jenner is superior to almost every other light mech. Why play a Commando? Its 10 tons lighter than a Jenner. It cant go as fast as a jenner. it has no jumpjets. It has two-thirds the firepower of a Jenner at best (deaths knell).

35-40 ton mechs should NOT be able to hit the speed cap. Because it makes every mech under 30 tons completely obsolete. The only reason spiders are so popular is because its screwed up hitbox makes it difficult to kill, but when thats fixed theyll fade back into obscurity.

Worse yet is somehow the Jenner was placed in the same movement category as the other tiny mechs when its got a full 10-15 tons on most of them. The Jenner should be small not tiny. Its got jumpjets to get up hills so it doesnt really need to be classed as tiny anyway.

The Jenner and Cicada should also both be capped at 135-140kph. That way the spider, commando, flea, locust will have at least some advantage over them. Otherwise theres gonna be a whole subset of tiny mechs that will never get used because theyre just way worse Jenners.

Well I hope masc and lifting the speed cap works out eventually in the end, if not i agree something really needs to be done with the speed and movements to differentiate mechs between 20 and 40 tons. Something more than just future weight balanced drops.

[DemonRaziel]

Shadey99, on 17 August 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

Well they did give us a view of the 2 locust variants besides the 1V that will be in game... And unless something happens the Locust will be the next released light since the Flea seems to have been kidnapped in the PGI labs...

It's been quite a long wait since the Spider. The new Light being introduced in Oct '13 and we're still one-two light 'Mechs short

[Khobai]

Quote

Not quite sure I understand the Cicada hate.

Its not cicada hate. the cicada is better than any 20-25 ton mech. So theres no reason it should have the same top speed. If you cant outgun a mech you need to be able to outrun it and the Jenner and Cicada prevent that.

[Shadey99]

Khobai, on 17 August 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Its not cicada hate. the cicada is better than any 20-25 ton mech. So theres no reason it should have the same top speed. If you cant outgun a mech you need to be able to outrun it and the Jenner and Cicada prevent that.

Commandos can rival a Cicada set for speed, a full 137/151 kph Cicada with ES and FF (with full armor) can mount ~9.5 tons of gear. A Commando built the same way has 8 tons. Not a vast difference for the same speed.

And as my link shows... The faster the Cicada goes the worse the weapons loadout to the point it is worse than a Jenner at the same speed. The Cicada is also much bigger than even a Jenner let alone Commandos and Spiders (both 25 tons). It is amazingly easy to kill a Cicada in a light, not so much the other way around.

Edited by Shadey99, 17 August 2013 - 07:23 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Commandos can rival a Cicada set for speed, a full 137/151 kph Cicada with ES and FF (with full armor) can mount ~9.5 tons of gear. A Commando built the same way has 8 tons. Not a vast difference for the same speed.

100 points more armor is certainly a vast difference. Not to mention the additional weapon hardpoints, the extra tonnage, and the fact the Cicada gets about 10 more crit slots than the Commando since the Cicada doesnt have arm actuators and can actually use a 250+ rated engine unlike the Commando. Commandos have little to no chance against Cicadas 1v1, especially with streaks as underpowered as they currently are. So yes Cicadas/Jenners both need a speed nerf to give tiny mechs the ability to escape from them.

What are you gonna argue next? That Locusts are better than Cicadas? You really think a 20 ton locust is gonna survive that long against a 40 ton Cicada when they both go the same speed? Its primarily for the benefit of mechs like the Flea/Locust that the Jenner/Cicada need to be slowed down. Because theyre gonna have it even worse off than the Commando does now.

No one will want to pilot tiny mechs that are slower than jenners or cicadas. Its the same with mediums that have been largely supplanted by heavies. Mediums have fallen to the wayside because Heavies carry more firepower/armor while still going the same relative speed. Thats another aspect of the game that needs fixing as well.

Edited by Khobai, 17 August 2013 - 09:21 AM.

[Shadey99]

Khobai, on 17 August 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Utter crud

Do you play a Cicada? Because frankly you are full of it. A Commando doesn't need to run a 250+ rated engine! The lower the weight the lower the required engine to reach identical speeds.

See this chart (which I switched for a picture of it because the forum doesn't do charts well)


1 extra energy slot (typically) and no missile slots on anything except a X-5 makes the possible loadouts at maximum speed very similar. COM-1B is a bare Commando at maximum speed for you to play with. CDA-2A is a bare Cicada at maximum speed to do the same. If you want to cap them at the same speed I wouldn't care if the cap on the Cicada was a 335 which will hit the exact same speed as a max commando. Though with a real cap of 140 kph neither can even hit those!

Continuing your line we need to nerf the engine cap on the Victor and Battlemaster (both can run a 400XL) because then they rival or even beat mediums because "How could a 55 ton ShadowHawk survive against a 80 ton Victor?" The real answer? They trade most of the extra tonnage for equal speed. The other real answer? There is always a bigger fish.

Edited by Shadey99, 17 August 2013 - 09:49 AM.

[Taemien]

You all need to think outside the box a bit.

Increased rewards for light mech roles has two issues. First one is what is a light mech's role? Well many of you don't want to admit that they are capable damage dealers. But you need to learn to allow that in the list of roles.

I just did a TT game 2 days ago where a much of the teams were engaged in a slug fest. However one Cyclops (90 ton mech) and one Owens (think Jenner, just faster and with OmniMech technology, however the Cyclops was equipped with 3060 era tech too). The cyclops pretty much was getting whittled down, it was only able to hit the Owens with a single laser at a time if at all. Had the Cyclops not decided to withdraw, it would have been killed 1v1 against an Owens with 2 Medium Pulse Lasers and an SRM4. Point is, these events happen in TT, they happen in lore, and we've seen them happen in MWO.

Now here's issue two. Increased rewards for the other roles. Lets speak about the actions that give cbills/exp for these roles. Spotting Assist, Tag/Narc Assist, ect. If you increase these rewards.. it doesn't help just light mechs. It helps everyone.

Lets say for the sake of argument Lights earn 20k per match. Everyone else earns 35k per match. You increase rewards enough for lights to earn 35k... well everyone else will start earning 50k per match. That's not really a buff for lights. And people are not thinking that through, or they just want rewards increased for them (not actually light mech pilots) while throwing a small bone to the light mech pilots.

Some might suggest making lights better at those roles then other mechs. Tell me how to make a light mech better at pushing R? Or firing a tag? No.. like I said we need to think outside the box.

A simple way is how MW4 assigned points in Attrition. This was one of my favorite game modes because you could win even if you had less kills if you used lighter assets. Something similar can be used here. Damage/kills/spot assists/tag/narc done to heavier machines is increased based on the difference in tonnage. If a Commando damages a Jenner, he gets a 10% bonus. If he damages an Atlas he gets 75% more then normal.

This can apply to teams as well. Wins and Loss bonuses and salvage can be increased by the weight disadvantage as well. This alone might get people into smaller machines for normal matches.

[Tezcatli]

Maybe they can focus on that after they fix the parts making certain lights ridiculous.

[Taemien]

Forgot to add this other option to my post above.

I don't see anything wrong with the speed cap. To be quite honest, light mechs in BattleTech rarely see over 130kph, with only a few models able to push 200kph with MASC.

What I do see an issue with is Heavies and Assaults reaching the speeds that they do. And in some circumstances Mediums even. If a Catapult can reach 85kph rather easily. A 96kph Commando is screwed. I'd like to see stricter restrictions on heavier mechs. Even limiting Assaults to the engine size they come stock with (you can go smaller, and slower, but not larger and faster).

If the fastest that Assault mechs could normally go is 53.5kph with speed tweak and the Awesomes (some of the variants) at 71kph, then lights (and mediums) would have a better chance with smaller engine sizes and more weaponry.