196 replies to this topic

[M0rpHeu5]

Mister Blastman, on 19 August 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

They have to earn my money, not try and bludgeon it out of us.

Quoting this just in case someone missed it and i ajasted the size a bit

Edited by M0rpHeu5, 20 August 2013 - 04:54 AM.

[Aym]

Koniving, on 17 August 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

So here's a question? What's your average earnings?

Mine's higher with the nerf. I'd average around 118 to 127,000 . I average 130,000 now.
This one, I wasn't particularly trying but thought I'd quote it because ~this~ is what I used to earn before the nerf with a hero mech.


I'm just curious. Have you taken a look at your earnings, and what are you doing to earn it?

That can't be a hero mech, premium doesn't multiply mech bonuses.

[Aym]

So Kon your example is clearly not a hero mech and shows earnings much higher than you're claiming you had before the nerf.

[Lord Perversor]

Well i have this one too




Ok i know it's a Hero mech (still without hero bonus it's 136k similar to Konivig but without any spot/narc assist bonus ) just made it up for the total Exp (over 5k should i had premium, and i had a match with over 6k total exp once) in general i noticed that playing wrecker and assist net more C-bills wich just means assists and component destruction are more economically appealing than straight out CT kills.

So maybe it's a way to PGI to say if you want C-bills shred your enemies to tiny pieces not just one shot them?

P.S: if you look at it with detail it seems assist and Spot/Narc are the ones who makes a bigger difference, Also found curious we both had the same component destruction bonus so we can't measure that right now

Edited by Lord Perversor, 20 August 2013 - 06:01 AM.

[mack sabbath]

Lord Perversor, on 20 August 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

Well i have this one too




Ok i know it's a Hero mech (still without hero bonus it's 136k similar to Konivig but without any spot/narc assist bonus ) just made it up for the total Exp (over 5k should i had premium, and i had a match with over 6k total exp once) in general i noticed that playing wrecker and assist net more C-bills wich just means assists and component destruction are more economically appealing than straight out CT kills.

So maybe it's a way to PGI to say if you want C-bills shred your enemies to tiny pieces not just one shot them?

P.S: if you look at it with detail it seems assist and Spot/Narc are the ones who makes a bigger difference, Also found curious we both had the same component destruction bonus so we can't measure that right now

Before nerf, that score would've netted you well over 200k Cbills...I have screenshot a couple of those when it happened on a trial mech or something, to be amazed at later. Trying to get Photobucket to load a couple.

[Lord Perversor]

Die Primate Die, on 20 August 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

Before nerf, that score would've netted you well over 200k Cbills...I have screenshot a couple of those when it happened on a trial mech or something, to be amazed at later. Trying to get Photobucket to load a couple.

That's all we need more pics from old days (mostly 1-2 weeks pre patch) to whole check in wich part the C-bill incoming changed.

Imho i been playing since Closed Beta and do not feel the rush for Grind C-bills (10m right now but with a 30+ mech hangar fully fitted) i found that just playing at my own pace the c-bill seems to increase decently (but i must recognize i'm not always looking at it)

[DragonsFire]

Aym, on 20 August 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

So Kon your example is clearly not a hero mech and shows earnings much higher than you're claiming you had before the nerf.

I believe that Koniving is indicating that his earnings noted in the screenshot, using a regular mech post C-bill change, are in line with what he was receiving with a Hero mech pre C-bill change.

Edited by DragonsFire, 20 August 2013 - 06:48 AM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

I track my stats patch to patch ...

Before the C-Bill earnings patch, I was averaging about 150,000 C-Bills per match (with premium time and a handful of Hero mechs every now and then). After copying my stats tonight, I averaged 136,424 C-Bills per match for the past two weeks. So for my playstyle, the nerf is noticeable, but not really that big of a deal.

However, doing a bit more math ... adjusting for premium time, the games played with my hero or founders mechs, I averaged about 76,500 C-Bills per match.

Assume the cadet bonus for the first 25 matches covers enough to buy a sparkly new, fully upgraded Jenner (about 10M C-Bills) ...

• 40 matches before they can buy their second Jenner (without upgrades or engine)
  
• 25 more before they can fully upgrade it
  
• 40 more before they can buy the third, 25 more to upgrade

So, to buy three mechs with full upgrades (swapping the same engine between them), that's over 150 matches.

I'm not sure that this is the new user experience that will keep a casual player's attention.

I'm sure I could have picked a cheaper first mech (one that doesn't require DHS, endo, and a 4.9M C-Bill engine to be competitive, for example), but I love my Jenners.

[PropagandaWar]

I'll give him a +1 for honesty. However if you have a premium account you should be given incentives to continue. I posted about that. Taking in game money from a guy giving you money is kind of bassackwards don't you think. I'm about to stop premium services all together because they are lackluster to begin with and have only been doing it to support pgi. A standard game gives you all they have to offer when you do a monthly sub. PGI needs to start throwing random stuff into the pot to keep me interested in premiums. I have enough bays and c-bills to keep me going for quite some time.

[Edson Drake]

Quote

i'm getting 120 to 150k without a founders mech, so that's really okay.

don't forget that PLAYING the game is actually the fun part and not unlocking everything as fast as possible...

Indeed.

However, we already have our mechs mastered and can play with 0 C-Bills. New players will have to grind to get their first mech. Easier with cadet bonus, for sure, but after that? When they have 900.000 C-Bill left and two more variants to buy, losing match after match by being paired with stronger players and using non-mastered mechs, do you think that is fun?

I can have my fun, I have my Stalkers, Misery, my Atlai, and un-activated premium time. I can pay for many things, but what about people that can't? I openly admit here, that at one point you will be required to pay. That's not a bad thing as it helps PGI pay the bills, and getting about 3000 MC every 3 months isn't the end of the world(albeit for many people it is)

But really, we didn't need a C-Bills nerf, but rather more incentives for new players, that balance in give/take and not just take/take. PGI frequently talks about making the game being easier for new players having even a 3rd person mode made just for them, and yet it will be harder for them to even get those mechs.

[Koniving]

Aym, on 20 August 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

So Kon your example is clearly not a hero mech and shows earnings much higher than you're claiming you had before the nerf.

Lord Perversor, on 20 August 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

Well i have this one too




Ok i know it's a Hero mech (still without hero bonus it's 136k similar to Konivig but without any spot/narc assist bonus ) just made it up for the total Exp (over 5k should i had premium, and i had a match with over 6k total exp once) in general i noticed that playing wrecker and assist net more C-bills wich just means assists and component destruction are more economically appealing than straight out CT kills.

So maybe it's a way to PGI to say if you want C-bills shred your enemies to tiny pieces not just one shot them?

P.S: if you look at it with detail it seems assist and Spot/Narc are the ones who makes a bigger difference, Also found curious we both had the same component destruction bonus so we can't measure that right now

DragonsFire, on 20 August 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

I believe that Koniving is indicating that his earnings noted in the screenshot, using a regular mech post C-bill change, are in line with what he was receiving with a Hero mech pre C-bill change.

Actually to be a bit higher than what I earned for a certain hero mechs pre-nerf. (Namely the Wang as it runs an XL and doesn't live long ), but yes otherwise a modest bit higher than before if I wasn't using a hero and using that same mech as on the screen. It's a HGN 733 with 1 tag, 1 medium laser, 1 AC/2, an XL engine, and 2 LRM-5 racks with an LRM-15 and an LRM-10.

Also I believe I stated there and if not then it was somewhere else that I posted it, that my LRMs barely did anything because they kept hitting buildings. Though I got cash for tag/spotting my own LRMs twice against a single target. Then once on two other separate targets. I also spent an insane amount of time brawling multiple mediums and two lights with my laser and AC/2. My left arm was gone. My missiles were destroyed as my side torso was raw and some dude had two MGs. Instantly lost my missile launchers there. Damn MGs are pretty overpowered when it comes to crits.

Then there's this from last night, which I replied to today.

Koniving, on 20 August 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

Oh it's a bit far from fine. But... The new system rewards teamwork more and solo play less. If you help your team you actually won't even notice a difference in income. Since we at Zhizhu usually help our team, we simply haven't. In fact some of us have noticed superior returns.

In example: Some bonuses which were one time pay buffs actually reward you over and over again at certain intervals. For instance a spot bonus now rewards me from the same LRM guy, against an identical target, every 3 to 5 seconds. Spot assist + tag/narc. Spot assist + tag/narc. I keep getting paid for helping my team. That's good, it promotes teamwork and pays a scout for being a scout. Before I'd get paid once for the job, per LRM guy, and never get paid again -- gave me no real reason to do it where now I have a reason.

That isn't to say it's fine all around: one of our players, who plays quite selfishly, has noticed a 50,000 (Edit: missing word: "average") decrease in his earnings. He's the sort that steals all of our kills that we worked so hard on, who stat pads himself like crazy making every match harder on us, and has a 5.something kdr while the rest of us are around 0.5 to 2.0 kdrs.

To me, that's an acceptable change. The current cbill earnings from what we've seen punishes the lack of teamwork exhibited by selfish players, and is rewarding players that actively go out of their way to help teammates. Add to that we are supposed to be getting more rewards for lights and mediums who perform their roles (spotting, combat support, savior kills, defensive kills, following orders given by team commanders, etc. are all supposed to reward you for teamwork).

Genuinely give helping your team a try. I made 210,000 cbills last night without premium (I'm refusing to buy it until we get our heat capacity reduced for the betterment of the game and to stop this alpha warrior b.s.) and I was using a Blackjack with a tag and 7 small pulse lasers.

Edit: Word was missing.
Edit 2: Defined "Superior returns."

There are other things you can do to improve your income as well. Kill by headshot or legging. If the engine is intact everyone makes more on the salvage. The fewer parts you strip, the higher the salvage income. As a medium, hang around an assault and shoot what they shoot. You'll notice some interesting cash bonuses. All in all, don't be so selfish and help those around you. My earnings have been improving and of the three people I played with last night, 2 of them also noticed increased earnings and 1 of them...was miserable with his pay because he was selfish the whole way through.

Far as premium goes; my own refusal is because of how poorly managed a single mistake back in the day has been. The capacity system is too high. MW2 had 40 threshold until shutdown. Hit 40 heat, you shut down. MW3 had 30. MW4 had 60 before MekTek. MWO? With an Atlas, SHS, I can reach 120 and still carry PPCs. With DHS I can reach 88.56 threshold and still have a realistic loadout. That's insane. I mean heck, I can do this with what was either 13 or 14 DHS! In MW3 if you fired 5 PPCs at once chances are you just blew up and died! Here, I churn out 30.

30 PPCs! O_O! 30! Non-stop, when we could fire them faster, at 8 heat each (which btw is the heat of 2 ML, at what was then twice the firing rate of 2 ML. Wtf!)

I'm fine with the economy balance. I do more teamwork and I get more money than I made before. That's good; it promotes teamwork. I play selfishly and I make dirt. The only problem is if I lose, I make worse than dirt. That could use a little change.

What I'm not fine with is the heat capacity. If the most poorly balanced in MW's history -- which led to the death of the franchise -- has a lower heat capacity than we can get in MWO there's a huge problem. One that turns "Mechwarrior" into "alpha strike warrior."

After all in PGI's own words: "Double heatsinks removed heat management from the game." Indeed they did! It never happened to a past MW. Never has any past mechwarrior changed double heatsinks. Why? Because none of them had rising capacities. It was a hardset, predefined limit. 30, 40, 60. Not... Oh you're in a trial mech you get 40 capacity, I got double heatsinks so I get 2 times cooling and 50 capacity. But wait, now you got double heatsinks but you don't have a 250 engine? Sorry, you got 46 capacity. Ha, ha, ha, I got the same weapons and I can fire more than you even though you have more heatsinks than me.

Is it any wonder our balance is screwed?

[Lord Perversor]

Koniving, on 20 August 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

Actually to be a bit higher than what I earned for a certain hero mechs pre-nerf. (Namely the Wang as it runs an XL and doesn't live long ), but yes otherwise a modest bit higher than before if I wasn't using a hero and using that same mech as on the screen. It's a HGN 733 with 1 tag, 1 medium laser, 1 AC/2, an XL engine, and 2 LRM-5 racks with an LRM-15 and an LRM-10.

Also I believe I stated there and if not then it was somewhere else that I posted it, that my LRMs barely did anything because they kept hitting buildings. Though I got cash for tag/spotting my own LRMs twice against a single target. Then once on two other separate targets. I also spent an insane amount of time brawling multiple mediums and two lights with my laser and AC/2. My left arm was gone. My missiles were destroyed as my side torso was raw and some dude had two MGs. Instantly lost my missile launchers there. Damn MGs are pretty overpowered when it comes to crits.

Then there's this from last night, which I replied to today.



Far as premium goes; my own refusal is because of how poorly managed a single mistake back in the day has been. The capacity system is too high. MW2 had 40 threshold until shutdown. Hit 40 heat, you shut down. MW3 had 30. MW4 had 60 before MekTek. MWO? With an Atlas, SHS, I can reach 120 and still carry PPCs. With DHS I can reach 88.56 threshold and still have a realistic loadout. That's insane. I mean heck, I can do this with what was either 13 or 14 DHS! In MW3 if you fired 5 PPCs at once chances are you just blew up and died! Here, I churn out 30.

30 PPCs! O_O! 30! Non-stop, when we could fire them faster, at 8 heat each (which btw is the heat of 2 ML, at what was then twice the firing rate of 2 ML. Wtf!)

I'm fine with the economy balance. I do more teamwork and I get more money than I made before. That's good; it promotes teamwork. I play selfishly and I make dirt. The only problem is if I lose, I make worse than dirt. That could use a little change.

What I'm not fine with is the heat capacity. If the most poorly balanced in MW's history -- which led to the death of the franchise -- has a lower heat capacity than we can get in MWO there's a huge problem. One that turns "Mechwarrior" into "alpha strike warrior."

After all in PGI's own words: "Double heatsinks removed heat management from the game." Indeed they did! It never happened to a past MW. Never has any past mechwarrior changed double heatsinks. Why? Because none of them had rising capacities. It was a hardset, predefined limit. 30, 40, 60. Not... Oh you're in a trial mech you get 40 capacity, I got double heatsinks so I get 2 times cooling and 50 capacity. But wait, now you got double heatsinks but you don't have a 250 engine? Sorry, you got 46 capacity. Ha, ha, ha, I got the same weapons and I can fire more than you even though you have more heatsinks than me.

Is it any wonder our balance is screwed?

QFT in general most of PGI changes aren't as bad as so many people claim, but the increased Heat Capacity it's the biggest issue.

I always tought DHS should be a higher heat dissipation and SHS should be the ones increasing the Heat capacity, this way forces player to choose between a more efficient heat management in prolonged combats, or a more hit and run heat build.

[Koniving]

Lord Perversor, on 20 August 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

QFT in general most of PGI changes aren't as bad as so many people claim, but the increased Heat Capacity it's the biggest issue.

I always tought DHS should be a higher heat dissipation and SHS should be the ones increasing the Heat capacity, this way forces player to choose between a more efficient heat management in prolonged combats, or a more hit and run heat build.

That is one idea I used to push for. It would make sense too. One (DHS) is better at heat dissipation and getting rid of it entirely. The other is better at pulling it away from critical systems but isn't as good at dissipating it (SHS). There's also another good idea which I have officially titled "Option 2" as it's more specific.

Go here if you like. The first post I do explains it's not as much a problem with our weapons as it is a problem with our ability to alpha strike due to high capacities. The second post describes the solution I provided as "Option 1," and used some feedback to come up with "Option 2," which uses what MekTek's rework of MW4 "supposedly" (don't know, never played it) did to help balance things according to a Wiki I read by assigning specific heat capacities or limits to specific mechs. It sparked an idea against an argument that I once faced where "This mech can do everything that mech can do, and do it better." Welp, Option 2 set about a way to change that using a predefined capacity system.

Personally somewhere else (here - it's an incomplete version but it has all you need with a bit more detail in the accompanying video with all my views on PGI's balancing if you like 'pod-cast' style vids with live but muted gameplay as we're talking about it), I have hashed out a very different but also perfectly valid reason to use single heatsinks. "Optional level participation Repair and Rearm," it's an R&R that isn't forced on you in which you choose how far you participate in it by what you do.
Gist:

Spoiler

You play standard tech, no upgrades, no repair costs. Don't boat 5 tons of a single type of ammo, no rearm costs (though you only pay if you spent the 5th or more tons of ammo and only for the 'extra' beyond 4). Or upgrade, use rare/lost tech weapons, and pay for as much as you upgraded. No lone wolf or faction discrimination. Since your participation in a faction or as a lone wolf with a faction increases your loyalty points, giving you better pay, you can then offset the repair and rearm costs as you "go up" in rank. I imagine with ELO and a rank system you'll steadily go up and upgrade your mechs gradually instead of immediately.
Or join a merc group and play "Hardcore" as merc groups were hinted at receiving as much extra money as they had planets under their control so they need to sink it. Become super rich fast, or lose your butt entirely and drown in debt.
All complete with contingencies in case if the impossible (debt as a faction or lone wolf) or the very likely (debt because you joined a merc group too early and upgraded everything after seeing your first paycheck).

[Tauwolf]

Lord Perversor, on 20 August 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

QFT in general most of PGI changes aren't as bad as so many people claim, but the increased Heat Capacity it's the biggest issue.

I always tought DHS should be a higher heat dissipation and SHS should be the ones increasing the Heat capacity, this way forces player to choose between a more efficient heat management in prolonged combats, or a more hit and run heat build.

OMG. The combination of these past few posts needs to be broadcast to PGI. This is the best analysis I've seen in a couple of weeks on this trash heap of a forum. Well done, guys.

Edited by Tauwolf, 20 August 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[Tezcatli]

Bought premium for the first time. Feels like I'm making what I was making before. ;o

[Angel of Annihilation]

Tezcatli, on 20 August 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Bought premium for the first time. Feels like I'm making what I was making before. ;o

This is my problem. After I used all my premium time from the Founders pack, I played F2P for several months and found that I had almost quit playing the game because the grind was too much. Finally realizing this I decided to spring for premium time to see if that corrected the issue and happily it did and with premium I felt I was progressing at a good pace. At that point I started having fun again with the game and decided to maintain a premium subscription from that day forward.

Now fast forward to 12 vs 12 coming out. All of a sudden WITH premium, I feel like I am making what I did before premium. Now the grind is back and I find myself doing the same thing as before when I was trying to play without premium...getting bored and worn out and starting to lack desire to play. The problem is that now, I have to buy premium just to get to the bored and worn out stage and have exactly zero options to get me back to a feeling of progressing at a good pace and having fun.

So basically I am at the point where why bother with premium. It doesn't make the game more enjoyable anymore so why spend the money. I will now just play a few matches here and there until I get bored then find something else to do instead of working dilligently toward getting my next mech. PGI loses my $15 a month and any more hero mechs I might have bought had I had been having fun instead of grinding.

[VanillaG]

I have a sneaking suspicion that PGI are scaling back the base payouts and when CW hits, we will be getting bonuses that put us close to where we were before the "nerf" on a per match basis. With 12v12 in, we will never earn as much an hour because matches are longer.

Edited by VanillaG, 20 August 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

VanillaG, on 20 August 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that PGI are scaling back the base payouts and when CW hits, we will be getting bonuses that put us close to where we were before the "nerf" on a per match basis. With 12v12 in, we will never earn as much an hour because matches are longer.

Then they should have released the changes at the same time as the enhancements, not screw over their paying customers with reduced C-bill generation for a month while they messed around with things.

My 2500 MC spent got totally devalued hard this month and I got zero compensation for the change and doubt I will.

[LockeJaw]

#FirePaul

[Mazaraz]

Twice now i havehad a month of premium time and not 3days after activating it i found out that PGI changed something to the point of making my Premium time worthless. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. there will be no third time. i'm sick of funding a company that could give dog squat for its customers opinions. ELO match making nerf this nerf that nerf everything. But hey they keep on a rolling out those paint schemes. I've gone from playing 6+ hours a day to about 2 a week. and will NEVER spend another cent on this company until it listens to the input ofits customers. MWO is literally now pay towin seeing as you can no longer generate enough soft currency to buy even the most cost effective builds. And as for those that state they still make 200Cb Ibet you dont own a single light mech...