269 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Niko Snow, on 14 August 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

We appreciate your concerns on our recent changes to C-Bill earnings.

As an online game, MechWarrior Online requires close attention to economy balance. We have been actively monitoring and tweaking our rewards system in preparation for upcoming features and overall economy design.

As we move closer to the game’s Launch on September 17, our developers will be addressing the community in an official post on our forums with a focus on C-Bill earnings and other reward systems.

Thank you again for your feedback and patience while we continue to adjust the game’s economy.

Sorry but this post doesn't say a thing and I think this is the problem with alot of PGIs decisions.

Here is what your post should have said.

"As an online game, MechWarrior Online requires close attention to economy balance. We have been actively monitoring and tweaking our rewards system in preparation for upcoming features and overall economy design. IT HAS BEEN NOTED THAT OUR THINKING ON REWARDS HAS BEEN FLAWED WITH REGARDS TO THE IMPLEMENTATION OF 12 VS 12 GAMEPLAY.

As we move closer to the game’s Launch on September 17, our developers will be addressing the community in an official post on our forums with a focus on C-Bill earnings and other reward systems. WE WILL ALSO BE WORKING ON A NEW SYSTEM THAT INSURES THAT EACH PLAYER WILL BE GETTING SIMILAR REWARDS TO WHAT THEY WERE RECIEVEING PRE-PATCH.

Thank you again for your feedback and patience while we continue to adjust the game’s economy BACK TO THE THE REWARDS YOU WERE RECIEVING PRIOR TO THE PATCH."

This is what should be said or at least a "F U we aren't changing a thing because we think you making too much. Grind baby, Grind!!!"

Either way would have actually said something useful.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 15 August 2013 - 02:48 AM.

[Wyest]

Hotthedd, on 14 August 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

You see, you are a welcome addition to the game, but you are not a special snowflake who is entitled to anything from this free to play game.

Really? That is the attitude you show to a new player?
I pray that's not the attitude the devs have to the new players, or this game is already dead and just doesn't know it yet.

The devs have a game. I may not be a 'special snowflake', but if they want me to open my wallet for it, they need to convince me it's fun.

Obvious grind is not fun. It's a fine line to walk. Right now, we're on the wrong side, IMO.

Alex Wolfe, on 15 August 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

Games are entertainment, not neccessity. There are many alternatives if you don't enjoy a game. If a game isn't fun, there's no pressure to persevere/pay, you can just uninstall and move on.

You can't force players to pay by making their unpaid experience unpleasant. You have to make the core game fun and enticing, and the paid experience even more attractive. Instead free players have to go through torture to even have a shot at playing the bare-bones game, maybe, somewhere down the line if they persevere? Not happening, and we've been saying that since R&R got introduced (and, luckily for all involved, removed).

Less C-bills per match for everyone, even worse new player experience (didn't think it was possible, trials that overheat in 3 salvos then cool down for 90 seconds not punishment enough for picking up the game?), premium time for veterans and loyal fanbase devalued.

This.

I'm a new player and already slightly invested. I liked the shape of what was there and bought in, because I have the disposable income and thought it would get better closer to "release".

Now? I've only been playing a few weeks, and I'm already feeling like I have to invest either loads of time or money to get to an even footing with the other players. I'm struggling to convince others to play, because, well, I'm struggling to convince myself I'm having fun and progressing right now.

I'll probably hang around until either I burn the MC or something else comes along. Hopefully the game changes enough to convince me to stay before then. If not, well, there are other games to play, and most of them are a lot cheaper than this has proven so far.

[Hotthedd]

Lol, the sense of entitlement is strong in this thread.

Many of you seem to believe that your mere presence in the game means that you get all of the goodies NAO!!!

A game like that has no life. There is nothing to WORK toward if you get everything handed to you from the start.

My seven year old son already knows that if there is something he really, really wants, he needs to save his money in order to get it. That means choosing NOT to blow his allowance on other things. He has already learned the economic lesson of "opportunity cost".

C-bills are PRETEND money. People are stamping their feet and throwing a tantrum over something that IS NOT REAL!!

[Ransack]

Niko Snow, on 14 August 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

It's easier to test and adjust this way: By first reducing the overall reward, we can observe the telemetry of how much less players are making overall during this period of time and thus make better judgement on the value of future rewards.

This also helps reduce the possibility of over-shooting our adjustments and giving away too many rewards. In such a scenario, we would have to nerf those rewards permanently and be left with much upset from any players who had grown accustomed to those greater reward levels.

In our current development: We can confidently counter frustrations with the current rewards implementation with the knowledge that more rewards will be coming, similarly to when rewards were previously adjusted last year.

Your other concerns should be addressed in future communications from the Dev Team on the upcoming rewards.

Thanks for saying something. I'm still not spending another cent until I see real progress though. Really, thank you for some sort of communication regarding this.

[Druidika]

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Lol, the sense of entitlement is strong in this thread.

Many of you seem to believe that your mere presence in the game means that you get all of the goodies NAO!!!

A game like that has no life. There is nothing to WORK toward if you get everything handed to you from the start.

My seven year old son already knows that if there is something he really, really wants, he needs to save his money in order to get it. That means choosing NOT to blow his allowance on other things. He has already learned the economic lesson of "opportunity cost".

C-bills are PRETEND money. People are stamping their feet and throwing a tantrum over something that IS NOT REAL!!

Wow.

Games are supposed to be fun. If games aren't fun, there are plenty of alternatives. People are saying that they had fun before this particular change, and stopped having fun after. That's an easily fixed issue, and even IGP came in and explained that the effects of the change will be mitigated in the future.

Your inane point about entitlement is completely wrong. No one wants all the things at once, just access to new mechs in a reasonable time. The current time is not reasonable, as evidenced by the devs introducing new rewards. Allowing players to gain new mechs in a reasonable time greatly increases the likelihood of them reaching the initial four mechbay limit before they get bored of the grind, potentially turning them into paying customers. That's the goal.

Edited by Druidika, 15 August 2013 - 06:05 AM.

[WarHippy]

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Lol, the sense of entitlement is strong in this thread.

Many of you seem to believe that your mere presence in the game means that you get all of the goodies NAO!!!

A game like that has no life. There is nothing to WORK toward if you get everything handed to you from the start.

My seven year old son already knows that if there is something he really, really wants, he needs to save his money in order to get it. That means choosing NOT to blow his allowance on other things. He has already learned the economic lesson of "opportunity cost".

C-bills are PRETEND money. People are stamping their feet and throwing a tantrum over something that IS NOT REAL!!

Yeah, you have no clue what people are complaining about. See everyone is fine with saving up or working toward something, but they tend not to be real favorable toward excessive grind. Somehow I doubt your seven year old would be real happy if you told him that he was doing a good job saving his allowance to get his shiny bobble, but then told him you were not going to be giving him as much allowance anymore. That is what is happening here. We took a steep pay cut that was not needed because of some nebulous future pay increase that will only bring us back to where we were.

As for C-bills not being real that is true, but time is money and the devs want our real money so maybe they shouldn't go around effectively punishing us. I feel bad for the people with premium time they kind of got screwed.

[Accursed Richards]

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Lol, the sense of entitlement is strong in this thread.

Many of you seem to believe that your mere presence in the game means that you get all of the goodies NAO!!!

A game like that has no life. There is nothing to WORK toward if you get everything handed to you from the start.

My seven year old son already knows that if there is something he really, really wants, he needs to save his money in order to get it. That means choosing NOT to blow his allowance on other things. He has already learned the economic lesson of "opportunity cost".

C-bills are PRETEND money. People are stamping their feet and throwing a tantrum over something that IS NOT REAL!!

Because before the nerf, you could earn a tricked-out Atlas in a couple of games no wait it wasn't even faintly like that. There was still a grind, but it was well balanced enough that it wasn't noticed as much. By the time I was getting bored with one mech, I'd have enough money built up to try out a different chassis or playstyle. Another thing that makes your complaints null and void is that the instant gratification option you so despise is still there, if you're willing to buy a bunch of MC.

Here's the thing--I don't know if you noticed, but this community tends to complain about a lot of things. Now here's a challenge--see how many threads you can find pre-nerf which complain that earnings are too high. Because I really can't remember any.

One other thing you might want to do is post a list of all the mechs you've bought since the start of your career, and how much cash you've got stockpiled. Just so we can see how affected you are by this change you keep insisting new players should have to put up with. Because you know, if you're already sitting on a pile of money and you've already got all the mechs you want, it's going to damage your credibility a bit.

[Takony]

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Lol, ...

1/10 troll.

Because do you expect others to believe that one can be so dense, that he doesn't get the point, understands the reason for all the raging about the cbill nerf?

It takes too much TIME after cbill nerf to progress in the game.
How unreal is TIME?

People want reasonable progress in reasonable time. When they get an arbitrary nerf which completely devalues their time investment and their real money investment as well (i.e. premium), do you think they will be inclined to spend more real money on this game instead of their limited time, or just say? "LOL F... this S.... I will spend my time and my money better with/on something else."

If the cookie is bitter and bites your tongue, you spit it out, because chewing on it for a couple days more won't make it taste like strawberry.

Edited by Takony, 15 August 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[Hotthedd]

WarHippy, on 15 August 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

Yeah, you have no clue what people are complaining about. See everyone is fine with saving up or working toward something, but they tend not to be real favorable toward excessive grind. Somehow I doubt your seven year old would be real happy if you told him that he was doing a good job saving his allowance to get his shiny bobble, but then told him you were not going to be giving him as much allowance anymore. That is what is happening here. We took a steep pay cut that was not needed because of some nebulous future pay increase that will only bring us back to where we were.

As for C-bills not being real that is true, but time is money and the devs want our real money so maybe they shouldn't go around effectively punishing us. I feel bad for the people with premium time they kind of got screwed.

So, you are upset about a "pay cut" with fake money in a pretend universe?

Maybe you should unionize.....

Accursed Richards, on 15 August 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

Because before the nerf, you could earn a tricked-out Atlas in a couple of games no wait it wasn't even faintly like that. There was still a grind, but it was well balanced enough that it wasn't noticed as much. By the time I was getting bored with one mech, I'd have enough money built up to try out a different chassis or playstyle. Another thing that makes your complaints null and void is that the instant gratification option you so despise is still there, if you're willing to buy a bunch of MC.

Here's the thing--I don't know if you noticed, but this community tends to complain about a lot of things. Now here's a challenge--see how many threads you can find pre-nerf which complain that earnings are too high. Because I really can't remember any.

One other thing you might want to do is post a list of all the mechs you've bought since the start of your career, and how much cash you've got stockpiled. Just so we can see how affected you are by this change you keep insisting new players should have to put up with. Because you know, if you're already sitting on a pile of money and you've already got all the mechs you want, it's going to damage your credibility a bit.

Why would people complain about receiving too much free fake money?

Yep, I have all the mechs I want, and lots of C-bills. Why would that damage my credibility? IRL, if you were facing bankruptcy, you would find a financial advisor that had lots of money UN-credible?

[Chavette]

Niko Snow, on 14 August 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

It's easier to test and adjust this way: By first reducing the overall reward, we can observe the telemetry of how much less players are making overall during this period of time and thus make better judgement on the value of future rewards.

This also helps reduce the possibility of over-shooting our adjustments and giving away too many rewards. In such a scenario, we would have to nerf those rewards permanently and be left with much upset from any players who had grown accustomed to those greater reward levels.

In our current development: We can confidently counter frustrations with the current rewards implementation with the knowledge that more rewards will be coming, similarly to when rewards were previously adjusted last year.

Your other concerns should be addressed in future communications from the Dev Team on the upcoming rewards.

This is great but why does it almost always have to come to this, 25+ threads about the earning nerf before a reasoning why its happening? The communication should happen BEFORE the change, and pages of drama and uproar could simply be avoided. Most people here had no idea the changes aren't final... its the same incomplete, half-assed communication over and over and over again thats making people have bad attitudes.

I know I shouldn't have to do this, but let me illustrate: telling us its not final is the difference between taking a toy from a 6 yr old and telling him hes getting in back in a minute, vs not telling him anything.

You already know the difference whats gonna happen.

Edited by Chavette, 15 August 2013 - 07:43 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Just over 2 weeks to Rome Total War 2, a one off payment and then as much fun as I want, probably more people playing as well.

[Greyfyl]

PGI.....continuing to bring you development decisions that make you go 'what the ****'.

[WarHippy]

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

So, you are upset about a "pay cut" with fake money in a pretend universe?

Maybe you should unionize.....

I see you didn't read what I said at the bottom of that post.
All digital items have value even c-bills. In fact you can spend real money on a fake mech in a pretend universe or you can buy it with c-bills. C-bills used to buy the mech have the same value in game as the real money you could use to buy the same mech.

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Why would people complain about receiving too much free fake money?

They wouldn't, but they will and they are complaining about receiving too little fake money. It isn't free it takes time to acquire and if it takes to long to acquire that time can be better spent somewhere else.

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Yep, I have all the mechs I want, and lots of C-bills. Why would that damage my credibility? IRL, if you were facing bankruptcy, you would find a financial advisor that had lots of money UN-credible?

It makes you lose credibility because you have everything you need and don't have to worry about the additional grind and time consuming nonsense that has been created with the change. You lose credibility because you are giving the finger to every new player that starts this game, and you are giving the finger to everyone that started later than you and didn't have the chance to acquire the stock pile of mechs and c-bills that allow you to ignore the ramifications of the in game income change.

Bankruptcies happen for a lot of reasons and have very little to do with the topic at hand, nor do real life financial interactions translate well to a balanced, fun, and fair game environment.

Edited by WarHippy, 15 August 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[Hotthedd]

WarHippy, on 15 August 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

I see you didn't read what I said at the bottom of that post.
All digital items have value even c-bills. In fact you can spend real money on a fake mech in a pretend universe or you can buy it with c-bills. C-bills used to buy the mech have the same value in game as the real money you could use to buy the same mech.


They wouldn't, but they will and they are complaining about receiving too little fake money. It isn't free it takes time to acquire and if it takes to long to acquire that time can be better spent somewhere else.


It makes you lose credibility because you have everything you need and don't have to worry about the additional grind and time consuming nonsense that has been created with the change. You lose credibility because you are giving the finger to every new player that starts this game, and you are giving the finger to everyone that started later than you and didn't have the chance to acquire the stock pile of mechs and c-bills that allow you to ignore the ramifications of the in game income change.

Bankruptcies happen for a lot of reasons and have very little to do with the topic at hand, nor do real life financial interactions translate well to a balanced, fun, and fair game environment.

Okay, C-bills have value. But the C-bills you earn are up to the developer to decide, not the player. Complaining about the amount seems like whining, after all, you are PLAYING a GAME, not WORKING at a JOB. The fun part should be shooting stompy walking tanks, not checking your bank account to see what you can blow your money on next.

Again, the "time" invested is free time. You have already chosen to devote this free time to PLAY, so it is not as if you need to earn anything for choosing to spend your time PLAYING A COMPUTER GAME.

I lose credibility because I play the same game as everybody else, started as a newbie when you could actually LOSE C-bills from a bad match, and accumulated C-bills from playing? Are you arguing that I should not have more C-bills simply because I have played (grinded) longer than you? You feel entitled to have everything I have because.....fair?!?!

Where does this prevailing sense of entitlement in our society come from? Why does everyone today believe they deserve a participation trophy? The rewards will be tweaked.

There are LEGITIMATE concerns with the game. Crying about fake money that you "earn" from PLAYING, is just pathetic.

[DemonRaziel]

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

So, you are upset about a "pay cut" with fake money in a pretend universe?

Maybe you should unionize.....

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

C-bills are PRETEND money. People are stamping their feet and throwing a tantrum over something that IS NOT REAL!!

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

There are LEGITIMATE concerns with the game. Crying about fake money that you "earn" from PLAYING, is just pathetic.

Please stop with the derogatory attitude towards those of us that refuse to accept the reasoning behind reduced earnings for the sake of future promises.

Shooting 'Mechs is the main purpose, that's right, but not shooting 'Mechs in a half equipped, half-upgraded metal box. And to equip the metal box, you need CBills, fair enough. But to upgrade these metal boxes to the level of actually viable 'Mechs, you need to at least basic' out 3 chassi and thus you need to buy these chassi.

How much you earn per game/per hour/perday and thus how fast you progress in a game affects the overall enjoyment of said game a lot.

However, to make another point, the insincerity from PGI in the first place and a questionable reasoning provided to us weeks later is actually a lot bigger concern to me than the reduced payments themselves - no matter how much I disagree with them.

[HeavyRain]

I propose PGI take Hottttttheadddzzz FAKE MONEY away and let him enjoy the game in the purest form possible. And prevent him from earning any more too.
Real men play for the kills, not the fake money.
Aaaaarrr.

[WarHippy]

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Okay, C-bills have value. But the C-bills you earn are up to the developer to decide, not the player. Complaining about the amount seems like whining, after all, you are PLAYING a GAME, not WORKING at a JOB. The fun part should be shooting stompy walking tanks, not checking your bank account to see what you can blow your money on next.

Fun is subjective. Fun can consist of many different things including collecting things in a game, but if you make it tedious it stops being as much fun and then people go somewhere else.

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Again, the "time" invested is free time. You have already chosen to devote this free time to PLAY, so it is not as if you need to earn anything for choosing to spend your time PLAYING A COMPUTER GAME.

True, but that free time can be spent on a different game if this one makes it to much of a grind to be worth playing. One would hope that retaining players is a goal for them.

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

I lose credibility because I play the same game as everybody else, started as a newbie when you could actually LOSE C-bills from a bad match, and accumulated C-bills from playing? Are you arguing that I should not have more C-bills simply because I have played (grinded) longer than you? You feel entitled to have everything I have because.....fair?!?!

See thats the thing though you didn't really play the same game as everybody else because you got to play with different rules and income levels than someone starting now. Add to that I never lost c-bills when repair and rearm was in place and neither did you. You might not have made as much as you could have if you lived, but that was all irrelevant anyway because they reset everyones c-bills/MC from time to time, and lets not forget they paid better when they had repair and rearm so it was more of a wash than anything. You should have more c-bills if you played longer and grinded longer, but with the new income levels people will have to grind longer than you ever did to get where you are. People are not entitled to everything you have, but they shouldn't have to work harder than you did to acquire it.

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Where does this prevailing sense of entitlement in our society come from? Why does everyone today believe they deserve a participation trophy? The rewards will be tweaked.

In society? The bleeding heart liberals worried someones feels will be hurt, but this is not real life it is a game and for games to be enjoyable the playing field needs to be as even as possible.

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

There are LEGITIMATE concerns with the game. Crying about fake money that you "earn" from PLAYING, is just pathetic.

We have been over this. That fake money has value, and you repeating the same ignorant nonsense is a pathetic waste of time.

[Hotthedd]

DemonRaziel, on 15 August 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Please stop with the derogatory attitude towards those of us that refuse to accept the reasoning behind reduced earnings for the sake of future promises.

Shooting 'Mechs is the main purpose, that's right, but not shooting 'Mechs in a half equipped, half-upgraded metal box. And to equip the metal box, you need CBills, fair enough. But to upgrade these metal boxes to the level of actually viable 'Mechs, you need to at least basic' out 3 chassi and thus you need to buy these chassi.

How much you earn per game/per hour/perday and thus how fast you progress in a game affects the overall enjoyment of said game a lot.

However, to make another point, the insincerity from PGI in the first place and a questionable reasoning provided to us weeks later is actually a lot bigger concern to me than the reduced payments themselves - no matter how much I disagree with them.

I completely agree on the problem with the lack of communication. You have seen no posts from me defending PGI.

Perhaps my attitude in this thread has grown towards "derogatory", sorry. It bothers me that so many players feel that they have this inalienable right to have the best equipment NAO! for FREE! No such right exists.

To me, complaining about the grind is just whining. I have little patience for that.

[WarHippy]

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Perhaps my attitude in this thread has grown towards "derogatory", sorry. It bothers me that so many players feel that they have this inalienable right to have the best equipment NAO! for FREE! No such right exists.

To me, complaining about the grind is just whining. I have little patience for that.

You come off as derogatory because you make ridiculous generalizations about how people are asking for "the best equipment NAO! for FREE!" when not one person has asked for that. The thing people are asking for is the grind to return to a reasonable time investment.

[Deathlike]

Hotthedd, on 15 August 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

To me, complaining about the grind is just whining. I have little patience for that.

I can understand that sentiment. I'm more concerned about the newbie c-bill growth experience than I am... because it's not hard for me or people that have some idea of milking C-bills in this game... it's the newbies that won't be able to expose this behavior the way the rest of us should be able to... for a while.