255 replies to this topic

[Kraven Kor]

The Justicar, on 16 August 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

This is ridiculous guys, don't get distracted by moderation and blow a fuse. We have more important issues to discuss. This thread was made to foster a working communicative relationship between us and PGI. We shant ruin that by getting ******** over a volunteer moderator, or any moderator. Roll with the punches, stay on topic.

We're on the same team. Act like it.

While I am with you to an extent (and left the first Town Hall meeting when someone came on basically to say "We hate Paul.")

We cannot control the posts of every person interested in posting here, nor can we magically fix the attitudes of some posters who consistently break the rules or whatever.

Egomane's comment was antagonistic, purposefully or not, and certainly did not help.

Solution: Official Thread, with Moderator Preview on All Comments, and a place to see the moderated comments so nobody can accuse PGI of "OH GOD CENSORSHIP!"

Again, perception is reality. PGI can in fact control the perceptions here if they take it seriously.

Or they can let Goons control the perceptions. I mean, I'm not sayin' anything bad about Goons, but I am sayin'... do you REALLY want them to be the ones "controlling the narrative," PGI?

For the love of all that is Battletech, will PGI please take this seriously, and address the concerns of the Founders who are or are soon to be ex-customers?

[Tannhauser Gate]

I think this movement needs to stop and reorganize as a pro PGI / pro MWO body with a civil attitude and constructive message. The best thing you can offer is well constructed and unified feedback. So far its mostly been critical and hostile. I also recommend that it be a closed group so you are free of goons and rage posters. Your message is getting lost in the hate posts.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 16 August 2013 - 02:03 PM.

[Kraven Kor]

And again:

PGI can in fact change the tone of their customer interaction. You cannot simply assume that anyone complaining is some miserable miscreant hell bent on ruining everyone else's day.

We have some real gems in this community so far as individuals able to anger a Saint with their vitriol; but by and large most of the posts critical of things are professional, lucid, detailed, and well-intended whether I agree with them or not.

PGI and their choices in design direction, in how they communicate, has at least some of the blame on the toxic relationship between PGI and their customers.

LakeDaemon, on 16 August 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

I think this movement needs to stop and reorganize as a pro PGI / pro MWO body with a civil attitude and constructive message. The best thing you can offer is well constructed and unified feedback. So far its mostly been critical and hostile. I also recommend that it be a closed group so you are free of goons and rage posters. Your message is getting lost in the hate posts.

Again, PGI has more control over this than anyone else.

[Dustmuffins]

RG Notch, on 16 August 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Whatever objections I had with the movement, I never wanted to see it completely stonewalled and turned into a negative force. Seems like the mods would rather see this go elsewhere and be negative rather than engage it and make use of it as a positive.
I said they would ignore this and I am sad they didn't prove me wrong.

Mod actions have made Notch write a post sympathetic to #saveMWO.

That's how screwed up this is.

Edited by Dustmuffins, 16 August 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[Polojilarious]

Niko, Garth, I am disappointed.

I'm disappointed about the mocking and dismissive comments made by members of pgi and the moderation staff, but they are as entitled to their opinions as we are, so while I'm disappointed by their feelings towards #savemwo, they are acting well within their rights. I'm more disappointed that users are being punished for responding to such posts, but we are all well aware of the forum rules, and it is ultimately within our power to ignore such comments and keep the discussion civil. As such, we are very much to blame for the slew of bad posts made in response to the comments in question.

What concerns me far more than anything else, though, is the idea that you're holding #savemwo responsible for keeping a thread on your forums clean, when, simply put, we have zero power to do so. There is nothing we can to do prevent detractors of the movement from creating off-topic or inflammatory posts in this thread, and there is nothing we can do to prevent "troll accounts" from acting to undermine our legitimacy. As you have noted, those responsible for these actions have been punished though post deletion and moderation approval and the like, but the fact is, despite the supposedly unbiased moderation, these people have succeeded in sending this thread to k-town in a torrent of bad posts.

The funny thing is that this sort of communication breakdown caused by inflammatory and offtopic posts is exactly what #savemwo is trying to prevent. We are trying our hardest to keep this conversation civil, and by all accounts pgi is very much in support of that civility, but #savemwo is an open discussion, and we have no way to prevent the negative actions taken by other users of this forum. This is in contrast to the two townhall meetings hosted by WoL where the people acting is support of #savemwo proved quite capable of sitting down and having a relatively organized discussion with little to no trolling.

Simply put, keeping these forums clean is not our responsibility, and it is not our fault if others break the rules in in threads we make. We are by no means free of blame, as many of us have broken rules in responding to our detractors, but ultimately I feel that we are being blamed for the actions of others, and that disappoints me.

We want to help, and we want to keep discussion as civil as possible, but we cannot do so here without the help and support of the moderation staff in keeping these threads clean.

[Dustmuffins]

LakeDaemon, on 16 August 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Yes, perception is reality. The perception is that #savemwo is anti-PGI and anyone needs to only skim the threads and see that many of the savemwo posters are critical or hostile to PGI.

The hashtag may have started this. #savemwo just sounds like a player movement that thinks PGI is screwing up. Im sure many of these players are sincerely invested and positive in their feedback but the die was cast. This movement was seen as confrontational thus bad for PGI's rep, for MWO's rep, and the rude posts didnt help.

If the problem with blantantly anti-PGI posts, they could have simply been deleted. There represented a small portion of the thread. The vast majority of the thread generally offered constructive criticism or was off topic bickering.

Seriously. Re-read the thread. It wasn't until Ego's post that it became unsalvageable.

Polojilarious, on 16 August 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

We want to help, and we want to keep discussion as civil as possible, but we cannot do so here without the help and support of the moderation staff in keeping these threads clean.

I couldn't agree more. If anything, the failure of this thread is due to the failure of the moderators.

Edited by Dustmuffins, 16 August 2013 - 02:50 PM.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Kraven Kor, on 16 August 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

And again:

PGI can in fact change the tone of their customer interaction. You cannot simply assume that anyone complaining is some miserable miscreant hell bent on ruining everyone else's day.

We have some real gems in this community so far as individuals able to anger a Saint with their vitriol; but by and large most of the posts critical of things are professional, lucid, detailed, and well-intended whether I agree with them or not.

PGI and their choices in design direction, in how they communicate, has at least some of the blame on the toxic relationship between PGI and their customers.



Again, PGI has more control over this than anyone else.

1. The tone of customer interaction is not set in forums. The forums stopped being important when it was opened up after closed beta. Its mostly used by PGI for announcements, updates, and ATDs. Otherwise, its just for players to yammer about anything they want while the mods keep a lid on it to a PG level.

2. The "toxic relationship" was not created by PGI but by the players in an echo chamber effect in a mostly negative forum. #savewmo is a unified voice in that echo chamber. Unfortunate that its being seen as hostile to PGI so it fell on deaf ears. No surprise there.

3. The "player to developer" relationship mostly -ended- when closed beta ended. PGI doesn't owe the players any special relationship with the dev team.

The PR team is about to ramp up so we will be hearing a lot more soon but it will be of a general nature.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 16 August 2013 - 02:52 PM.

[Gwaihir]

LakeDaemon, on 16 August 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

1. The tone of customer interaction is not set in forums. The forums stopped being important when it was opened up after closed beta. Its mostly used by PGI for announcements, updates, and ATDs. Otherwise, its just for players to yammer about anything they want while the mods keep a lid on it to a PG level.

LOL, what? Where, pray tell, is the tone of customer interaction set if not the official communication venue on the official site?

LakeDaemon, on 16 August 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

2. The "toxic relationship" was not created by PGI but by the players in an echo chamber effect in a mostly negative forum. #savewmo is a unified voice in that echo chamber. Unfortunate that its being seen as hostile to PGI so it fell on deaf ears. No surprise there.

It's what naturally happens to a community that is continually ignored while poor game decisions are made. No surprise that people become more and more desperate to be heard in the face of total radio silence and continued baffling game design choices with no explanation. It's obviously worse today than it was a year ago, but that's the fault of the environment that has been created since then.

LakeDaemon, on 16 August 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

3. The "player to developer" relationship mostly -ended- when closed beta ended. PGI doesn't owe the players any special relationship with the dev team.

The PR team is about to ramp up so we will be hearing a lot more soon but it will be of a general nature.

And ignored players don't owe a game going down the tubes any more time or money.

[Victor Morson]

Erata, on 16 August 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

It's very hard to believe that the entire thread needed to be K-Towned when the offensive users should have been warned/removed instead.

Moderation follows the same strategy as the game balance devs.

You can do it the easy way (remove the trouble makers / fix the weapons) or the hard way (The maths / Destroy all threads with a couple problem posters.)

[sj mausgmr]

RG Notch, on 16 August 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

In some ways I guess it's new and different approach, the customer is never right.

And that's why we should be most worried.

[Pwnographic Kerensky]

Anders, on 16 August 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

This is frankly a shameful display of moderator intimidation in an attempt to suppress discourse on a topic you find unpalatable.

Further compounding this egregious display of bad faith, is that one of your own - a professional or not, waltzes in, attempts to derail the thread in the most passive aggressive way possible, and then, shock of shocks, the thread gets moved.

I am simply amazed by the moderators actions here on this day. Bravo.

Well said!

[Dustmuffins]

LakeDaemon, on 16 August 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

1. The tone of customer interaction is not set in forums. The forums stopped being important when it was opened up after closed beta. Its mostly used by PGI for announcements, updates, and ATDs. Otherwise, its just for players to yammer about anything they want while the mods keep a lid on it to a PG level.

2. The "toxic relationship" was not created by PGI but by the players in an echo chamber effect in a mostly negative forum. #savewmo is a unified voice in that echo chamber. Unfortunate that its being seen as hostile to PGI so it fell on deaf ears. No surprise there.

3. The "player to developer" relationship mostly -ended- when closed beta ended. PGI doesn't owe the players any special relationship with the dev team.

The PR team is about to ramp up so we will be hearing a lot more soon but it will be of a general nature.

I don't think that's what PGI is actually trying to do. That would be a hilariously bad way to run a beta.

[Viper69]

If anyone has added 2+2 they will realise people not sympathetic to the cause are the ones reporting everyone in here. We are fightin two battles one with the mods and one against the hidden trolls who silently report anyone for even a slight issue. Its sad that the white knights instead of voicing their counter arguments resort to other tactics to get the thread moderated. I will admit I personally had quite a few posts deleted but they were benign and in any other thread would have been ignored.

[gwarm]

LakeDaemon, on 16 August 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Yes, perception is reality. The perception is that #savemwo is anti-PGI and anyone needs to only skim the threads and see that many of the savemwo posters are critical or hostile to PGI.

This is PGI's show. You cant heckle the actors and expect the show to change. You will be ignored or shown the door.

Thank you for letting me know that criticism is off the table. I'll be sure not to be critical in my assessment of a game that I once loved enough to have spent >$200 on, and now never play due to frankly moronic changes. Thanks for letting me know that.

This isn't PGI's show. Considering this game lives or dies based on how much the players spend on it, I'd say it is fair to call this our game. If they wish to continue receiving hundreds of dollars from the dedicated whales who want this game to succeed, then it might be smart to listen to well constructed criticism designed to better the game. We want this game to succeed. We want to want to spend money on it for years to come.

Treating us like antagonists just because SA groups have been trolls before does nothing to further this discussion. Try to separate us as individuals from our in-game personas and realize we are actual human beings with a love for this franchise, and it kills us to see it unraveling like this when it is so close to being an amazing game.

[valkyrie]

Anders, on 16 August 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

This is frankly a shameful display of moderator intimidation in an attempt to suppress discourse on a topic you find unpalatable.

Further compounding this egregious display of bad faith, is that one of your own - a professional or not, waltzes in, attempts to derail the thread in the most passive aggressive way possible, and then, shock of shocks, the thread gets moved.

I am simply amazed by the moderators actions here on this day. Bravo.

Man, that sounds really, really familiar.

You people deserve one another. Really, you do. I'm happy for you. Call me when you schedule the wedding.

[Tannhauser Gate]

gwarm, on 16 August 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Thank you for letting me know that criticism is off the table. I'll be sure not to be critical in my assessment of a game that I once loved enough to have spent >$200 on, and now never play due to frankly moronic changes. Thanks for letting me know that.

This isn't PGI's show. Considering this game lives or dies based on how much the players spend on it, I'd say it is fair to call this our game. If they wish to continue receiving hundreds of dollars from the dedicated whales who want this game to succeed, then it might be smart to listen to well constructed criticism designed to better the game. We want this game to succeed. We want to want to spend money on it for years to come.

Treating us like antagonists just because SA groups have been trolls before does nothing to further this discussion. Try to separate us as individuals from our in-game personas and realize we are actual human beings with a love for this franchise, and it kills us to see it unraveling like this when it is so close to being an amazing game.

Dunno what you to tell you, man. Imho, the moment #savemwo became critical and judgmental of PGI personally it failed. They are people too and who wants to be called incompetent and that their game needs "saving" from their own devs?

Edited by LakeDaemon, 16 August 2013 - 08:32 PM.

[Wales Grey]

LakeDaemon, on 16 August 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

Dunno what you to tell you, man. Imho, the moment #savemwo became critical and judgmental of PGI personally it failed. They are people too and who wants to be called incompetent and they their game needs "saving" from their own devs?

Yes, how dare we be critical. How dare we make personal judgments about the state of the game. How dare we express these opinions and criticisms in the form of feedback.

Clearly the only correct sort of feedback is positive feedback, pats on the head, and wrapping any prickly criticism in a nice comfy layer of sweet nothings. Developers are special and delicate butterflies who shatter and crumble into dust the minute you aren't obsequiously fawning over their every decision. After all, developers are not fallible mortals, but mighty titans of creativity! Infallible and vast! Capable of devising systems beyond mortal ken!

Who are we, ignorant and stupid masses to question their divine inspiration? Why should they, the modern inheritors of Hephaestus, stoop to hear our concerns or bother themselves with our opinions?

You see, the fact is that developers are always right and never wrong. If you think otherwise, you're clearly just too stupid or ignorant to understand their game. I mean, Kerberos was able to make the utterly perfect and not at all awful Sword of the Stars II, the greatest 4x game of all time! Their head developer was clearly always right in his every decision.

And so it is here at PGI, the developers are infallible. To question, or even think otherwise, is clearly heresy and subversive/disruptive behavior. After all, PGI have never, ever made any mistakes that needed to be fixed at all.

As if the Gods who built the titanic "Bass Pro Shops" series of games could ever be wrong. Get out, you troll for daring to insinuate that PGI could ever possibly be wrong.

[moderatepudding]

RIP MWO

[INAPPROPRIATE NAME 0001]

RIP in peace goon community rep power grab

RIP in peace goons


**** on a community for a year

throw a temper tantrum like children when said community doesn't support them

truly taken before your time

[Tannhauser Gate]

Nope I said it failed when it became personally insulting to the people of PGI. If you cant be professional or if you let anger, vitriol and sense of entitlement shape your dialogue then you are going to be ignored or treated like kids. That's not PGI unjustly stonewalling you. That's what anyone would do to you and as I am about to do as well. I wish you the best of luck.